"It's a proprietary hop blend"

[slym2none]

I recant everything I said. Gila is right and I am wrong. I'd go eat crow, but first I have to clean up all this egg on my face.

LOVE the new av!!!

 

[slym2none]

True, but it's easy to give a good version of it, without giving the real recipe. I do a BBQ rub that people have asked me about (which actually isn't measured by volume), I do it by sight and taste, but none the less, I always say, the base is half paprika and half brown sugar, depending on the container you are using. Then I list out the other ingredients. I even give out my "secret" which is a little cinnamon in the mix.

My secret ingredient changes. Sometimes it's cinnamon, sometimes it's tea (English breakfast blend), sometimes it's cocoa, and sometimes it's instant coffee.

 

[berrywise]

 

[CA_Mouse]

Under no circumstances is a Brewer/Brewery required to tell you anything about his process or ingredients.

I have met a huge number of Brewers, both commercial, craft and home, some of them will give you their recipe, some will talk shop and others only want to know if you are going to finish the beer and leave. I have tried to talk shop with some that have no interest and leave it at that. There are others that know I'm in the process of opening my own brewery that think I'm going to steal their recipes (and some of them have actually taken my recipes). Personalities are a thing we all have to learn to deal with. I look at it this way, if they don't want to discuss their beers, that is up to them, if they do, then great! As for my recipes, I create everyone of them, I'll talk process and ingredients with anyone that wants to know. I'm not going to think they are going to steal my recipe, because they will be brewing on different equipment, under different circumstances and most likely different amounts anyway, so they may get close, but they will never actually match mine perfectly and I'm good with that.

 

[Yooper]

LOVE the new av!!!

He loves kittens. It's a thing with him.

Under no circumstances is a Brewer/Brewery required to tell you anything about his process or ingredients.

I have met a huge number of Brewers, both commercial, craft and home, some of them will give you their recipe, some will talk shop and others only want to know if you are going to finish the beer and leave. I have tried to talk shop with some that have no interest and leave it at that. There are others that know I'm in the process of opening my own brewery that think I'm going to steal their recipes (and some of them have actually taken my recipes). Personalities are a thing we all have to learn to deal with. I look at it this way, if they don't want to discuss their beers, that is up to them, if they do, then great! As for my recipes, I create everyone of them, I'll talk process and ingredients with anyone that wants to know. I'm not going to think they are going to steal my recipe, because they will be brewing on different equipment, under different circumstances and most likely different amounts anyway, so they may get close, but they will never actually match mine perfectly and I'm good with that.

I guess that was my point.

I've walked into places where the brewer sat down next to me and poured us both a beer, talked shop with me, and then gave me his card and his email address, and stayed in touch. Actually, more than several come to think of it, and we really have stayed in touch from time to time. I can think of at least 5, off the top of my head. And some of these breweries are doing quite well (GABF winners and such).

I've walked into other tap rooms where I mention I like a certain beer, and if the brewer is around he might talk a bit and smile and nod.

Others have blown me off completely.

Interestingly, the GABF winners are in group #1, with a few in group #2. Some of the ones who have blown me off completely have had some of the worst beers, but not all of them.

Just like all people are different, all brewers and businesses are different. Brewers tend to be a friendly bunch who love to talk shop with anybody who will listen- at least in the US. There are a few German brewers who are more reticent- but not all. One talked my ear off after finding out I brew and used to live in the same town he did back in Germany.

Mouse, when you open, can I be a guest brewer? I wouldn't brew, but I can clean a mashtun and rock rubber boots like few others.

 

[Singletrack]

I brewed with the "proprietary hop blend," and my beer sucked too. Please stop asking about it.

There are so many things we can add to beer to make it bad. Why must we discuss them? Alright, stop begging. Here's a few:
Jelly
Toe jelly
Naval jelly
Air Force jelly
(Pretty much all jelly)
Squashed bugs
Squashed squirrels
Squashed sasquatches
(Pretty much all squashed stuff)
Need I go on?

Maybe its better to ask about successes. Seems people are reluctant to get all bubbly and excited to talk about their failures.

 

[CA_Mouse]

Mouse, when you open, can I be a guest brewer? I wouldn't brew, but I can clean a mashtun and rock rubber boots like few others.

Sure you can Yoop! I'll actually start brewing commercially after the first of the year for another brewery. This will help me get my seed money for my barrel program. I'll let you know when you can share a brew day with me soon.

 

[Magnus314]

Whenever I taste (or make) a crap IPA I tell everyone it's Simcoe, Amarillo and Citra hops and they suck it down like lemonade.

Now I'm gonna say Nelson Sauvin and Mosaic just to prove I'm better than them, and so i don't have to pay so much for hops anymore.

(Seriously- true story- local brewery has an AWFUL in all caps IPA that now has distribution. I was at the brewery trying to decide if I was willing to wait in line to argue that they should give me something else, or just chug this one for effect and buy something else, when the brewer walked up. I asked him how he got that "signature" taste from Summit hops, when all I could taste was harsh bitterness and onions. His answer -"you're using too much!"...

But I wasn't asking for homebrew advice, I was talking about HIS beer!)

 

[MaxStout]

Maybe its better to ask about successes. Seems people are reluctant to get all bubbly and excited to talk about their failures.

People love to talk about their successes. If they brew dynamite beer, they'll want to shout it from the mountaintop. (Yooper's group #1.) When they're not so successful, they won't be so inclined to talk about it. That's how people are--I can't blame them.

I was at a new brewery recently, and their beers were a mixed bag. A couple were stellar; the rest so-so. The brewmaster asked what I thought of the flight. I accentuated the positive and told him how much I enjoyed the two good ones. He didn't ask for my thoughts on the others and I didn't offer.

 

[max384]

Just a comment regarding successes.

This bartender said their IPA is their best selling beer. So, they're obviously not embarrassed about it. And when I asked the brewer about it, I, in no way, suggested I was unhappy with it. So, I don't think it's a case of not wanting to talk about a bad beer.

And to be honest, if it's their best-selling beer, it may not even be a bad beer... I may just hate it. But, then again, this thread wasn't meant to criticize their beer anyhow, it was meant to hear people's opinions on my interaction with the brewer.

 

[MattyIce]

Interestingly, the GABF winners are in group #1, with a few in group #2. Some of the ones who have blown me off completely have had some of the worst beers, but not all of them.

What do you think is the story there?

 

[mattrox]

This kind of reminds me of BBQ rub recipes. If someone says "secret ingredients" then people think they are being a jerk or rude.

BBQ rub - jerk

I see what you did there!

 

[Yooper]

What do you think is the story there?

I think they know that their beers suck, and don't want to hear it from someone who can tell them that.

Their beers might suck for reasons not their own- say, the owners won't invest in a decent water source, or buy equipment to use grain and not extract (yes, quite a few brewpubs are extract brewing, just it's "easier"), or something like that.

If I was a professional and putting out sub-par product, I sure wouldn't want a BJCP judge and knowledgeable brewer to sit and critique it.

 

[soccerdad]

I don't know many pro brewers but those that I have met seem to like to talk about their craft .. I guess sorta like a woodworker might talk about a latest creation or new tool. My approach has always been a humble one .. "Yeah, I brew at home and I think I make good beer, but I'm trying to make great beer." A recent conversation with a brew pub owner revealed his knowledge about both beer and coffee. He suggested that since coffee extracts oils at 205 degrees or less, but bitterness above 205, he does something like a hop stand with coffee in his coffee porter. He puts fresh grounds in below 205 as the beer is cooling and steeps them for 15 to 20 minutes. In fairness, I had asked him about a beer of his that I really liked. I'm not sure that I would bother to ask about a style of his that I did not like - especially if I think I already make a better beer in that style.

 

[joshesmusica]

I know lots of people say that they're in no way obligated to share their specific ingredients, but I think that goes against everything that beer culture has been about for so long. Not only is a good beer just as much about process as ingredients, it's also about equipment. Successful beers are also not necessarily about how good it is, but about the culture surrounding the brewery. It's the pr and advertisement that will often make a beer successful.

 

[GHBWNY]

I think it's that he knows it's not good, and doesn't want to discuss it at all with people.

I agree. But why would a brewer continue to tap a beer he knows/suspects isn't going to be enjoyed by his clientele? Especially if it's one of the go-to quaffs in his establishment. Had it been me as the owner, I would have said something like, "Yeah, I know it isn't that great. It was kind of experimental and we're working on a new recipe. Sorry you don't like it. Here, have a glass of something else on the house." Otherwise, it sounds to me like he's got a gun pointed at his foot...

 

[MaxStout]

I agree. But why would a brewer continue to tap a beer he knows/suspects isn't going to be enjoyed by his clientele? Especially if it's one of the go-to quaffs in his establishment. Had it been me as the owner, I would have said something like, "Yeah, I know it isn't that great. It was kind of experimental and we're working on a new recipe. Sorry you don't like it. Here, have a glass of something else on the house." Otherwise, it sounds to me like he's got a gun pointed at his foot...

The brewer just sunk a bunch of $$ into that batch. He probably weighed his decision between "Should I just dump it and lose all that money?" vs. "Should I serve it and try to recoup some of my investment?"

He chose the latter, hoping that it won't hurt his brewery's rep. But it could be a shot in the foot.

 

[GHBWNY]

The brewer just sunk a bunch of $$ into that batch. He probably weighed his decision between "Should I just dump it and lose all that money?" vs. "Should I serve it and try to recoup some of my investment?"

He chose the latter, hoping that it won't hurt his brewery's rep. But it could be a shot in the foot.

Or option #3 -- Keep serving a bad-tasting beer in spite of the investment, and drive customers away from his establishment and his [potentially] good beers.

 

[MaxStout]

Or option #3 -- Keep serving a bad-tasting beer in spite of the investment, and drive customers away from his establishment and his [potentially] good beers.

Yep, that's the risk. He's damned either way. Not an enviable position to be in, with that kind of money left on the table.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Or option #3 -- Keep serving a bad-tasting beer in spite of the investment, and drive customers away from his establishment and his [potentially] good beers.

Not always entirely up to the brewer. Many have partners, running other aspects of the brewery, that have a say regarding product.

 

[pretzelb]

Or option #3 -- Keep serving a bad-tasting beer in spite of the investment, and drive customers away from his establishment and his [potentially] good beers.

I think we need to be careful about using the label bad beer. It might be a failure for the style but I doubt we are talking something that causes you to gag. Our little friendly brew culture is starting to get an attitude like the wine culture of old. If a beer is liked by the masses who don't know as much as us brewers then why not sell it? On the flip side, the best made beer in an unpopular style might not sell at all leaving a world class brewer out of business.

But if it's bad and it doesn't sell well then they should consider dumping it.

 

[iijakii]

"Sorry, this is a proprietary SMaSH and I can't give out any information on it."

 

[Rhumbline]

I think we need to be careful about using the label bad beer. It might be a failure for the style but I doubt we are talking something that causes you to gag. Our little friendly brew culture is starting to get an attitude like the wine culture of old. If a beer is liked by the masses who don't know as much as us brewers then why not sell it? On the flip side, the best made beer in an unpopular style might not sell at all leaving a world class brewer out of business.

But if it's bad and it doesn't sell well then they should consider dumping it.

This is worth considering. Whatever you might think about Corona, Heinekin, Guinness, etc. there are certainly a ton of people who drink them, to the extent that they keep a huge corporation afloat.

I brewed a tripple that I thought was horrible, barely drinkable. I gave one to an experienced brewer and he loved it.

Diffrent strokes.

 

[iijakii]

Guinness is delicious what's wrong with you?

 

[tagz]

When you get a meal at most nice restaurants, the wait staff will tell you every little detail about the dish. Beer should be no different. Tell me the hops and grain that you use, so I know what I'm about to order. I refuse to buy bottles that have zero description. And I would definitely be put off by some proprietary blend BS.

 

[NoIguanaForZ]

I know lots of people say that they're in no way obligated to share their specific ingredients, but I think that goes against everything that beer culture has been about for so long. Not only is a good beer just as much about process as ingredients, it's also about equipment. Successful beers are also not necessarily about how good it is, but about the culture surrounding the brewery. It's the pr and advertisement that will often make a beer successful.

I'd put it another way: what one is obligated to do is a damn low bar.

 

[iijakii]

When you get a meal at most nice restaurants, the wait staff will tell you every little detail about the dish. Beer should be no different. Tell me the hops and grain that you use, so I know what I'm about to order. I refuse to buy bottles that have zero description. And I would definitely be put off by some proprietary blend BS.

There's a big chain here in Portland area that lists all malts and hops, OG/FG, IBU, SRM etc. Always enjoyed that. Their beers aren't anything special but it's always pretty solid. They got cajun tots though so what else do you need?

http://www.mcmenamins.com/489-john-barleycorns-ale-cider

 

[max384]

When you get a meal at most nice restaurants, the wait staff will tell you every little detail about the dish. Beer should be no different. Tell me the hops and grain that you use, so I know what I'm about to order. I refuse to buy bottles that have zero description. And I would definitely be put off by some proprietary blend BS.

No matter how interesting or how good a bottle of beer looks, if they don't have the ABV listed, I don't buy it out of principle. I'm not someone who only buys the highest ABV beers or anything, but that's very basic information that all beers should include. I mean, the brewery obviously knows the ABV of their beer, so why not include it? It's amazing how many bottles of beer don't include this.

Although, I won't refuse to buy a beer that doesn't have listed hops, IBUs, SRMs, etc., I'm MUCH more likely to buy a beer that does have these listed as opposed to one that doesn't.

I'm a beer geek, and I love the geeky specifications of a beer to be listed!

 

[CA_Mouse]

I think they know that their beers suck, and don't want to hear it from someone who can tell them that.

If I was a professional and putting out sub-par product, I sure wouldn't want a BJCP judge and knowledgeable brewer to sit and critique it.

I think that this is a big part of the issues. I know a few of the brewers that haven't wanted to discuss their beers with me, are afraid that I may be brutally honest with them. A lot of them have never entered beer in a competition and have been adamant that competitions are not a good indicator of beer quality. Not to be snide about it, but I've dumped beers that didn't stand up to my quality restrictions, that were better than what they have on tap.

 

[pretzelb]

When you get a meal at most nice restaurants, the wait staff will tell you every little detail about the dish. Beer should be no different. Tell me the hops and grain that you use, so I know what I'm about to order. I refuse to buy bottles that have zero description. And I would definitely be put off by some proprietary blend BS.

To me food is vastly different. First you only get those details in fine restaurants. Coincidentally beer isn't a staple in fine restaurants. More importantly the audience that appreciates detailed beer ingredients is maybe 5% of the customers. Of that maybe 2% require it. For example, my wife only likes IPA's and when she is really picky she only likes citrus types. Meanwhile I will look at a beer menu and focus on the styles. Maybe I feel like an IPA or maybe I'll go for a stout depending on my mood. But I can't see myself saying "I'm not trying your Oktoberfest unless you tell me the malt and hops used". I'm sure some people need to know that. I doubt it is enough for a business to cater to.