"It's a proprietary hop blend"

[CA_Mouse]

I wonder if they exist on pure numbers only. If, say, only 1 out of every 100 viewers click on a link, if they spam enough sites, they'll get traffic.

Unfortunately that is exactly how it works. If 1% click on the link and the link is posted 100,000 times, that is 1,000 hits. Of those 1,000 hits if only 1 person gives information, that one email address-phone number-street address gets sold to thousands of list holders. Mining that one contact means $$$ at some level. Old tactics. Used to be the same way in mass mailings in the 1970's and 1980's. Mass FAXes in the 1990's were the same thing.

 

[Kharnynb]

I live in finland, so some food and drink regulations are different.

Over here it's illegal not to list ingredients, especially anything that can cause allergies.
The brewer/cook doesn't have to list exact amounts, but it's relatively common to do so.

The local brewpub will happily give out recipies if asked, and i've traded beer and recipies with them many times.
The head brewer is a decent chap and likes to talk when he has time.

 

[TropicAl]

See no problem with keeping recipes close to chest.

 

[Gameface]

I live in finland, so some food and drink regulations are different.

Over here it's illegal not to list ingredients, especially anything that can cause allergies.
The brewer/cook doesn't have to list exact amounts, but it's relatively common to do so.

The local brewpub will happily give out recipies if asked, and i've traded beer and recipies with them many times.
The head brewer is a decent chap and likes to talk when he has time.

If he listed the ingredients it would look something like this:

Water, ethanol, sugar (malto-whatever), hops, less than 1% barley.

He wouldn't have to list the variety of hops, just that there are hops. And most of the ingredients used to brew beer are not present in the finished product. We try not to have bits of grain in the finished product and we're really only going for the hop oils as well. Of course small amounts make it through, depending on filtration techniques, but beer is usually more than 90% water, most of the remaining 10% is going to be taken up by ethanol, then there will be some sugars and then trace amounts of other stuff.

 

[MaxStout]

If he listed the ingredients it would look something like this:

Water, ethanol, sugar (malto-whatever), hops, less than 1% barley.

He wouldn't have to list the variety of hops, just that there are hops. And most of the ingredients used to brew beer are not present in the finished product. We try not to have bits of grain in the finished product and we're really only going for the hop oils as well. Of course small amounts make it through, depending on filtration techniques, but beer is usually more than 90% water, most of the remaining 10% is going to be taken up by ethanol, then there will be some sugars and then trace amounts of other stuff.

This is similar to food labeling laws. The label must list ingredients somewhat categorically, but not necessarily specifics. For example, you might see "natural flavoring" or "spices" listed. It's not required to itemize the individual flavorings or spices. If it was required, KFC, Coca-Cola, etc., would be forced to divulge their trade secret ingredient lists (albeit not the amounts of each).

 

[ericbw]

Maybe the brewer did not want to talk about the beer because he had to go take a S#*T.......

Or possibly, the last homebrewer he talked to told him everything he was doing wrong!!!!!

Your first sentence was EXACTLY my first thought.

 

[ericbw]

Their IPA was terrible...

Because it was an IPA. IPAs are terrible.

It's strange to go into an establishment and asking for details about something that makes their product unique, and then being bothered by not getting the answer. Especially when you announce that you're a homebrewer.

It's like going to a handmade woolen boutique and looking at a sweater, then telling the proprietor/maker that you knit, and what stitch is this? Where do you get your yarn?

What is inferred is that you plan to do it, and you think you can do it as good or better.

You didn't tell us how you asked about it.

[Spit] "What the eff is in this sh**??"

(That's a joke.)

Most brewers are willing to share some info, because they know most customers can't or won't replicate it. And even those that do will make theirs at home, then come and drink at a brewery or bar, too.

 

[max384]

Because it was an IPA. IPAs are terrible.

It's strange to go into an establishment and asking for details about something that makes their product unique, and then being bothered by not getting the answer. Especially when you announce that you're a homebrewer.

It's like going to a handmade woolen boutique and looking at a sweater, then telling the proprietor/maker that you knit, and what stitch is this? Where do you get your yarn?

What is inferred is that you plan to do it, and you think you can do it as good or better.

You didn't tell us how you asked about it.

[Spit] "What the eff is in this sh**??"

(That's a joke.)

Most brewers are willing to share some info, because they know most customers can't or won't replicate it. And even those that do will make theirs at home, then come and drink at a brewery or bar, too.

I mentioned in a subsequent post that I asked nicely and didn't even hint that I didn't like their IPA.

My opinion is that being afraid that a customer will replicate a recipe and he will lose business over it is an irrational fear. Look how many craft breweries list the hops and sometimes malts they use right on the bottle.

http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/how-to-brew/craft-breweries-share-homebrew-clone-recipes/

 

[ArcLight]

Because it was an IPA. IPAs are terrible.

It's strange to go into an establishment and asking for details about something that makes their product unique, and then being bothered by not getting the answer. Especially when you announce that you're a homebrewer.

It's like going to a handmade woolen boutique and looking at a sweater, then telling the proprietor/maker that you knit, and what stitch is this? Where do you get your yarn?

What is inferred is that you plan to do it, and you think you can do it as good or better.

Your analogy is false. Homebrewers aren't looking to put the brewer out of business, they want to see if they can make something like that on a small scale. I've had friendly chats with brewmasters at small brewpubs, and they were willing to chat. As for "stealing their recipe" there are quite a few good recipes out there (and 100 times as many mediocre ones)

In fact, given the huge markups restaurants have, you want to chat with customers and have them come back. Repeat customers and spreading word of mouth is a boon to restaurants.

 

[ShizuokaBrad]

The problem I see is that the owner doesn't know you. It's the first time you've been to the place and you show up asking about ingredients... You say you're a home brewer but to him you could be the competition down the road. I don't blame him at all for not wanting to tell you. Personally, I would never ask about ingredients unless I'd already developed some kind of rapport with the brewer.

 

[ericbw]

Your analogy is false. Homebrewers aren't looking to put the brewer out of business, they want to see if they can make something like that on a small scale. I've had friendly chats with brewmasters at small brewpubs, and they were willing to chat. As for "stealing their recipe" there are quite a few good recipes out there (and 100 times as many mediocre ones)

In fact, given the huge markups restaurants have, you want to chat with customers and have them come back. Repeat customers and spreading word of mouth is a boon to restaurants.

It's always the maker's choice about what to reveal. Many are willing to share, this guy wasn't. That shouldn't be a reason to not return if you liked the other beer (which was the best stout the OP ever had).

 

[ericbw]

The problem I see is that the owner doesn't know you. It's the first time you've been to the place and you show up asking about ingredients... You say you're a home brewer but to him you could be the competition down the road. I don't blame him at all for not wanting to tell you. Personally, I would never ask about ingredients unless I'd already developed some kind of rapport with the brewer.

Exactly. Or asking in general is one thing. But most of all, you gotta respect his right to decline details.

In my business, I get asked about how I do my job, but I'm not going to give away too much information for free! A brewery is different than asking another homebrewer.

 

[ArcLight]

The problem I see is that the owner doesn't know you. It's the first time you've been to the place and you show up asking about ingredients... You say you're a home brewer but to him you could be the competition down the road. I don't blame him at all for not wanting to tell you. Personally, I would never ask about ingredients unless I'd already developed some kind of rapport with the brewer.

I showed up at a brewery. I told the brewer what i liked about a variety of his beers. I told him as a home brewer what I had done. He was happy to tell me the yeast and hops and grain he used. I was enthusiastic about his beer.

Would I not return if the guy didn't give me any information? Not necessarily.
But it might not give me that warm and fuzzy feeling that would cause me to select brewpub A over restaurant B.

 

[ArcLight]

Exactly. Or asking in general is one thing. But most of all, you gotta respect his right to decline details.

In my business, I get asked about how I do my job, but I'm not going to give away too much information for free! A brewery is different than asking another homebrewer.

Beer recipes are commonly available on the internet. It's unlikely this brewer is doing anything special. If one joins a good brew club, you can probably find out that information from one of the members.
So I don't think your analogy holds.
Just because the guy says he uses Munich malt in his stout, or XXX hops in his IPA, doesn't mean you can brew the beer as well.

This is different from giving away information to competitors in crowded markets. If you are the only plumber who can work with steam heat in a county, then you may not want to give way that information, that you spend time and money to acquire.

 

[MaxStout]

Trade secrets are trade secrets. What may seen trivial to some ("it's only some grains and hops"), is very important to the brewer. If he doesn't want to share, that's his prerogative. Sure, we may be able to figure out the recipe, as there are lots of things in the world that can be reverse-engineered. Beer is no different. But that doesn't mean the proprietor can't keep things close to the vest.

I do enjoy talking brewing with professional brewers, and many of them treat their recipes and processes as "open source." I doubt very much that a hobbyist brewing 5 or 10 gallons is likely to cut into a brewery's profits. But I also understand that some brewers just don't want to talk about it for whatever reasons, and I can respect that. That certainly won't stop me from enjoying their beer if I like it.

 

[lowtones84]

I'm pretty surprised by this "the brewer has the right to keep secrets" attitude. Of course he does. But having a small brewery with a tasting room is as much customer service as it is brewing.

The OP could have been sitting in the comfort of his own home drinking homebrew or proven craft that he bought for vastly less than the $5 or $6 he was probably spending on pints at this brewery. Instead, he wanted to spend his money by trying the new local place. You better be damned grateful that people want to spend their money on your product when you're small and unproven, or you will not be in business for very long.

Just as it is the brewer's right to keep recipe details, it is the customer's right to decide if they want to spend their money at any establishment a second time. If the brewery or another employee would have been personable even if they wanted to keep their secrets, it probably would have been different. This works both ways, and either reaction by the OP is completely understandable.

 

[Gameface]

If he doesn't want to divulge the recipe that's fine with me, I just think calling it a "proprietary blend of hops" is about the *****iest way you could say that.

 

[ShizuokaBrad]

I showed up at a brewery. I told the brewer what i liked about a variety of his beers. I told him as a home brewer what I had done. He was happy to tell me the yeast and hops and grain he used. I was enthusiastic about his beer.

And that's a great way to go about it. Take an interest about show you know what you are talking about (=building a rapport). The OP just said the brew master came by and he asked about the hops he used in his IPA. That's not a good way to get someone to open up about their recipes.

 

[PeteNMA]

Proprietary blend, eh? Probably Falconers Flight...

 

[ericbw]

Proprietary blend, eh? Probably Falconers Flight...

That might even be what he meant!

 

[ericbw]

And that's a great way to go about it. Take an interest about show you know what you are talking about (=building a rapport). The OP just said the brew master came by and he asked about the hops he used in his IPA. That's not a good way to get someone to open up about their recipes.

And the OP was 4 beers in before shouting, "hey, whash in this IPA? It tastes like crap!"

I'm joking, but the owner might get a lot of that stuff.

 

[ericbw]

Beer recipes are commonly available on the internet. It's unlikely this brewer is doing anything special. If one joins a good brew club, you can probably find out that information from one of the members.

So I don't think your analogy holds.

Just because the guy says he uses Munich malt in his stout, or XXX hops in his IPA, doesn't mean you can brew the beer as well.



This is different from giving away information to competitors in crowded markets. If you are the only plumber who can work with steam heat in a county, then you may not want to give way that information, that you spend time and money to acquire.

Almost all business knowledge is commonly available. That doesn't mean I need to give it away for free.

I think the problem is that on this board, it's a hobby. In a commercial setting, brewing is a job and a business.

 

[The_Nid_Hog]

For me, this captures the takeaway from the whole thread. Anybody who is opening a bar, restaurant, or brewery today is flirting with disaster. There are so many things that can go wrong and competition is so stiff that you had better be on your game all the time. Regardless of whether you're a brewer or a baker, shouldn't your focus be on getting and keeping customers? If something goes wrong and you don't get the permits you need, or some equipment isn't ready, all you hard work might be for nothing. You could be dead right out of the gate. Same with protecting your recipes. Maybe you want to protect your magical hop blend, but is it worth alienating customers? So you have a bank payment or technical problems on your mind. We've all got troubles, but you're the one who decided to get into the service industry. It doesn't cost anything to be nice and you can respond to questions without revealing your secrets. Wouldn't it be better to get that home brewer to come back and bring a bunch of his friends because they feel welcome? Your carefully protected recipe isn't going to do you much good if there's nobody there to drink it.

I agree that you should be broad minded enough to give someone another chance. But, when we all have limited money to spend and limited time to spend it, that second chance is rewarding the guy who didn't get it right the first time at the expense of someone who did. Like the brewery that Hello is taking about. I went when they had their opening but none of their own beer. Went back when they were pouring their own and it wasn't very good. If I keep going back to see if they finally get it right, I'm penalizing the brewery down the street that is doing a good job, or the beer bar in the other direction that goes out of their way to take care of customers. Maybe you can get enough other forgiving souls to help you get past that, but is it worth the risk?

This brew pub started off on the wrong foot. I paid $20 to go to their grand opening which was a parking lot fenced off with a band in the middle of June. There were about 7 people inside those gates. After spending $20 to listen to a band that I could have listened to from my truck in the shade, I also paid $15 for 3 tickets to buy beer. Turns out they had never even fired up their brewery. I was paying for crap I could get at the restaurant I went to eat at 30 minutes later. I went back with about 10 friends and drank there, got a tour because I was with another brewery, and learned that asking questions about their BCS brewery seemed to be more of an annoyance to the owner than anything. Still, I bought a cap because the hottie who got me into the brew house was well, hot. I am glad to see they're at least brewing something. I'd give them another shot but their grand opening was a bit of a flop in my eyes.

 

[Gameface]

For me, this captures the takeaway from the whole thread. Anybody who is opening a bar, restaurant, or brewery today is flirting with disaster. There are so many things that can go wrong and competition is so stiff that you had better be on your game all the time. Regardless of whether you're a brewer or a baker, shouldn't your focus be on getting and keeping customers? If something goes wrong and you don't get the permits you need, or some equipment isn't ready, all you hard work might be for nothing. You could be dead right out of the gate. Same with protecting your recipes. Maybe you want to protect your magical hop blend, but is it worth alienating customers? So you have a bank payment or technical problems on your mind. We've all got troubles, but you're the one who decided to get into the service industry. It doesn't cost anything to be nice and you can respond to questions without revealing your secrets. Wouldn't it be better to get that home brewer to come back and bring a bunch of his friends because they feel welcome? Your carefully protected recipe isn't going to do you much good if there's nobody there to drink it.

I agree that you should be broad minded enough to give someone another chance. But, when we all have limited money to spend and limited time to spend it, that second chance is rewarding the guy who didn't get it right the first time at the expense of someone who did. Like the brewery that Hello is taking about. I went when they had their opening but none of their own beer. Went back when they were pouring their own and it wasn't very good. If I keep going back to see if they finally get it right, I'm penalizing the brewery down the street that is doing a good job, or the beer bar in the other direction that goes out of their way to take care of customers. Maybe you can get enough other forgiving souls to help you get past that, but is it worth the risk?

I agree with you. I'm a frequent poster on a different web site where I've met many of the other posters because I host the occasional poker game that I open up to members there. I generally like to have a couple beers on tap that are completely free to my guests. Anyway, I get told constantly that I should open a brewery. I know that to them I'm the home brewer they know, so they think I must make the best home brew on the planet. But no matter how good my beer is or isn't, I tell them that great beer is not what makes or breaks a micro brewery. No matter how good my beer might be there is no reason for me to believe that I could make it as a micro brewery in a market so competitive.

I have no business experience. I don't think I'd make a good manager. I'm horrible (like way horrible) with money. I could see myself spending $1M starting a brewery where a smarter person would spend $200K and have everything I had in all the places where it counted.

Opening a brewery isn't a joke. To make it you have to have a few things go your way, on top of good money management and fantastic beer.

 

[ericbw]

There's a great article in paste magazine - an interview with Shaun Hill. It touches on sharing in the brewing world.

 

[mesooohoppy]

I understand wanting to protect your recipes and stay competitive. But if youre the brewer and you tell them you used hop a and hop b, that doesn't neccesarilly mean they have some sort of secret and are going to 'steal' your recipe or customers. There is still lots of missing info.

I've asked a couple of local breweries what malt/hop is contributing that 'xx' taste/aroma and they're always open to answer my dumb questions. I dunno, I am a n00b, so maybe I am missing something?

 

[mesooohoppy]

... or if he wanted to take the high road and not be an ass about it, he could have said 'it took me xx years/months to perfect this recipe, I'd like to keep it under wraps'. Instead of playing that proprietary card.