Italian Pilsner Discussion

[hopfenstopfen]

I brewed this up as my first attempt on an Italian Pilsner, I'll be kegging in a few days. I may have gone overboard on the hops, but when I was putting the recipe together I decided I'd risk going too big rather than not big enough. I've never had a pilsner I thought was too hoppy. Also, for anyone in the Pacific Northwest, Wayfinder's Terrifica is my favorite example of the style I've had (including Tipopils).

9.75 lb Weyermann floor malted pilsner malt
1 lb Munich Malt

0.4 oz Warrior 90 min (20 IBU)
1 oz Hallertauer 30 min (9 IBU)
1 oz Tettnang 30 min (11 IBU)
1 oz Hallertauer 0 min
1 oz Tettnang 0 min
1 oz Hallertauer dry hop
1 oz Tettnang dry hop

Omega German Bock Yeast

100:50 Sulfate:Chloride

Report back! I’m interested in your perceived bitterness. I just used 6.5 oz of Saaz in a Pils all throughout the boil last week, though they were 2.9% AA. I will not be dry-hopping this one. Were your hallertauer/tettnang on the low or high end AA? I’m also interested in your sulfate level, I’ve not gone above 50ppm in a Pils yet.

 

[monkeymath]

I'm currently on the train home from Trento, Italy. Went to a beer store in the morning, but they didn't have Tipopils; but then I managed to find it on tap at a restaurant.

The dry-hop is noticeable, I'd say, but not over the top, so it stays well within the category of pilsners. Nice floral aroma, some grains. The body is quite thin, even for a pilsner, and the mouthfeel almost a bit watery.
It's a nice beer, but not something I'd go out of my way to seek out or even try to clone in my homebrew. But I might take a clone recipe, add a pound of munich malt (probably keeping the extra gravity) and make that.

 

[anteater8]

Report back! I’m interested in your perceived bitterness. I just used 6.5 oz of Saaz in a Pils all throughout the boil last week, though they were 2.9% AA. I will not be dry-hopping this one. Were your hallertauer/tettnang on the low or high end AA? I’m also interested in your sulfate level, I’ve not gone above 50ppm in a Pils yet.

I'll report back in a few weeeks for sure. I don't recall the exact AA on my hops, I just used the Beersmith default of 4.0% and 4.5% for Hallertauer and Tettnang respectively.

I've used the same water profile in all four pilsners I've brewed so far and have been happy with it, crisp but not minerally, good balance with bitterness. One of them got a bronze medal with a 36/50, definitely room for experimenting and improvement though.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

So, yeah, it's certainly great that some of them are now making good Pilsners. But why do we need a new "style" for Italian pilsners then? Next up, we'll have all possible combinations of <Country>-<Style> ...

It's not "new", you may not have heard of it before but it predates most/all of the other "country <style>" lagers, and within Europe it has become a recognisable "thing" to describe lagers with significant dry hopping with noble-ish hops. So no, this has nothing to do with Peroni and Moretti.

This is a nice article interviewing Agostino Arioli about Tipopils - he's a big fan of Spalter Select for the dry hop.

 

[monkeymath]

It's not "new", you may not have heard of it before but it predates most/all of the other "country <style>" lagers, and within Europe it has become a recognisable "thing" to describe lagers with significant dry hopping with noble-ish hops. So no, this has nothing to do with Peroni and Moretti.

I wasn't saying Italian pilsners were new; I was questioning whether it helps in any way to introduce a new style "Italian Pilsner":
- At least Tipopils squarely matches the BJCP guidelines for a German Pilsner.
- Introducing more and more new styles makes it impossible to compare beers: of course you cannot compare a Stout to a Hefeweizen, but when no two beers belong the same style anymore, you've lost more than you gained. And the act of adding a subtle dry-hop is not in itself sufficiently revolutionary.
- The geographic reference is nonsensical when 98% of Italian pilsners are not "Italian Pilsners" and a good deal of "Italian Pilsners" are not Italian.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

You mean like India Pale Ales?

 

[anteater8]

I brewed this up as my first attempt on an Italian Pilsner, I'll be kegging in a few days. I may have gone overboard on the hops, but when I was putting the recipe together I decided I'd risk going too big rather than not big enough. I've never had a pilsner I thought was too hoppy. Also, for anyone in the Pacific Northwest, Wayfinder's Terrifica is my favorite example of the style I've had (including Tipopils).

9.75 lb Weyermann floor malted pilsner malt
1 lb Munich Malt

0.4 oz Warrior 90 min (20 IBU)
1 oz Hallertauer 30 min (9 IBU)
1 oz Tettnang 30 min (11 IBU)
1 oz Hallertauer 0 min
1 oz Tettnang 0 min
1 oz Hallertauer dry hop
1 oz Tettnang dry hop

Omega German Bock Yeast

100:50 Sulfate:Chloride

I'm drinking this now and I'm really happy with the way it turned out. This has actually gotten me closer to the pilsner I want to drink on a regular basis, regardless of what you want to call it. Its simply hoppier and more exciting. Aroma is that of a really fresh German Pils, with just a bit more punch to it. Flavor has a good amount of lemon, herbal and hop spiciness, but its well balanced with the honey and cracker notes from the malt.

I would brew this again the exact same way. I would also consider upping the IBUs by maybe 5... maybe my hops weren't as high in AA as beersmith suggested? I would also consider adding a small whirlpool addition, which I've had good luck with in my normal German Pils. I'd even consider adding a very small amount of stronger American hops, maybe Cascade or Centennial, to give it more of a citrus punch... but I realize then we'd be venturing into more of a "West Coast Pils" style.

In any case, I think I can say this is a decent starting point for anyone who wants to take a stab at an Italian Pilsner.

 

[Gruel]

I'm not intending to put a damper on the enthusiasm here, but I have consistently bad memories of Italian pilsners. That was in the 80s; did they get better in the mean time?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I'm not intending to put a damper on the enthusiasm here, but I have consistently bad memories of Italian pilsners. That was in the 80s; did they get better in the mean time?

We're talking about completely different things. How was the US beer scene in the 1980s compared to now?

 

[Andre3000]

I'm not intending to put a damper on the enthusiasm here, but I have consistently bad memories of Italian pilsners. That was in the 80s; did they get better in the mean time?

You most likely are not thinking of the same "Italian Style" Pilsner that is being brewed today on the craft level.

I don't know what your knowledge is on the subject, but it's a confusing label. When I first heard it I was like "oh like Peroni?". No, not like Peroni at all. Think German Pilsner with more back end hops boosting flavor and aroma, but still tending towards subtle. More importantly, this style almost seems like a gateway for more breweries to start experimenting with unconventional pilsners, a trend that I am a big fan of.

https://www.craftbeer.com/craft-bee...ed-an-american-crop-of-italian-style-pilsners

 

[thehaze]

Tipopils is the one example that comes in mind: Tipopils – “Know Thyself” | Birrificio

Italian Pilsner - nowadays - refers to a Pilsner which is usually dry hopped, but still keeps its " lager " qualities by being clean, crisp, refreshing.

 

[madscientist451]

Here's a commercial brewer's explanation of what Italian Pils is:

The first Pils getting canned is the style that I have joked about being a dumb style… Italian Pils. When I first started hearing people talk about this “new style” of Pils a couple years ago, I asked what made it different from other styles of Pilseners. The answer I was given was that Italian Pils is like a German Pils (The main example that people point to as the originator of the style is even brewed with all German ingredients and was an attempt at recreating a German Pils) but it’s dry hopped. If that’s the case, it’s still just a German style Pils. The confusion stems from Germany’s beer purity law which previously stated that hop extracts or powders weren’t permitted to be added at any point after the boil was complete. Many people believed this meant that dry hopping wasn’t permitted and in 2012 the law was updated to clarify that dry hopping with natural hops was allowed, but concentrates, extracts, and powders are still prohibited. However, dry hopping with whole hops was never illegal and has in fact been taught at Weihenstephan since at least 1907. Furthermore, the brewery that “invented” this style opened in 1995. In America, there was breweries brewing all malt Pilsners that were dry hopped with German hops before prohibition, so it’s not like the style was invented in Italy. On top of all that, one brewery brewing a different style in a country doesn’t make a style that gets a regional designation like that.

Source: (credit: this article was recently posted on the LODO forum by vikeman)

https://tombstone.beer/2020/09/24/b...low-oxygen-brewing-techniques-upcoming-beers/
I'm going to try making one, using anteater8's recipe and hop schedule (above) except I'm going to use 100% Spalter Select hops as the originator of this beer discussed in the article posted above by Northern Brewer.

 

[Gruel]

Well, I'm glad to hear that beer in Italy got better, and I'm looking forward to trying some on my next visit there. Whenever that may be.
Regarding beers in the US: I don't know about the 80s, but the situation has steadily improved since my arrival here in the early 90s!

 

[AzOr]

Batch size: 5 gallons (19 liters)
Brewhouse efficiency: 85%
OG: 1.048
FG: 1.010
IBUs: 35
ABV: 5.0%

MALT/GRAIN BILL

7.75 lb (3.5 kg) Weyermann Pilsner Malt
4 oz (113 g) Weyermann Acidulated Malt

HOPS SCHEDULE

0.67 oz (19 g) Saaz at first wort hop (FWH)
0.75 oz (21 g) Saaz at 10 minutes
1.4 oz (40 g) Cascade at whirlpool (15 minutes)
1.4 oz (40 g) Saphir at whirlpool (15 minutes)
This is from Craft Beer and Brewing
Sounds delicious but according to what I’ve read, the cascade addition is out of style.

 

[monkeymath]

sounds delicious but according to what I’ve read, the cascade addition is out of style.

You gotta be real careful here. A single misplaced hop addition could give rise to an entirely new apparently-regional-but-factually-unrelated style of pilsner.

 

[AzOr]

If that’s the case, then do I get to name the new Pillz style?

Honestly, I had never heard of Italian pilz until a few days ago. I have been calling them hoppy lagers.

The beers I have been brewing have a touch of Munich and Vienna just to give it a more gold color and I have not been dry hopping. A few recent beers I did add up to an oz at whirlpool though.

Either way I really enjoy this type of hoppy lager and look forward to seeing more recipes posted.

Btw- I’ve been drinking Occidental’s NW Pilsner and I love it. Obviously, it doesn’t fit into this style but still a great beer.

 

[Broothru]

You gotta be real careful here. A single misplaced hop addition could give rise to an entirely new apparently-regional-but-factually-unrelated style of pilsner.

Yeah. Like "Cascadian IPA". If it's so "cascadian", where's all the Cascades?

 

[Charmin1073]

Has anyone tried the original mash schedule for Tipopils?

https://byo.com/article/italian-pils/

 

[Kold Brygg]

My next batch will most likely be an Italian Pilsner. Have looked at Tipopils and Brewdog Lost lager

5 gallons
75% Best Pilsner
20% Best Vienna
5% Best Caramel Hell

145°F 40 min
158°F 20 min
I would have preferred Weyermann Eraclea, but can't get it, adding a bit of Vienna and Carahell to increase sweetness and bread which Eraclea is supposed to give.

OG 1.044
FG 1.009

Hops
@60 Merkur 21 IBU
@45 Smaragd 14 IBU
@WP 1oz Saphir
@WP 0.75oz Saaz
@DH 3 days 0.75oz Saphir

Lallemand Diamond slurry
52°F until a few points left
59°F Diacetyl rest

https://share.brewfather.app/d2wAg6qb0ktXF1
Anyone who wants to comment?