Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

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couchsending said:
Their beers ARE drastically different than most. They have an incredibly sophisticated brewery and obviously a talented staff. As long as SOP is followed it’s not that difficult.

I don’t think they’re doing anything that nuts other than not really force carbing their beers like everyone else does.

I don’t get much of the “alternate” yeast character in their beer to be honest. It smells like SO4 predominantly. Due to yeast needs for harvesting and repitching I find it hard to believe they’re mixing yeast from the get go. Even if you mix only small percentages in due to flocculation rates and other variables those percentages change really quickly. I’d be willing to bet they harvest the SO4 and then add dry hops and sugar plus other yeast and cap the tanks.
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I never did, and I still don't. I think that they're just getting a lot of character from their hops that other people aren't. I've never opened a can of TH and said. "this smells like a damn hefe!" or whatever that blogger said.
I haven't been on HBT that much, but it's kind of interesting to see that there still isn't anything conclusive about the yeast strains.
 
I just brewed 5 gallons and I'm fermenting it with S04.

OG 1.071

2 row, carafoam, munich, touch of wheat.

Hopped with HBC 586 only.

Fermented with 1 pack of S04 pitched at 64 degrees, free rise to 66. The blow off hasnt had a tree house aroma like the yeast blend does. I'm excited to see what the flavor is like. Pretty sure 1 pack in 5 gallons of 1.071 is an underpitch which was mentioned in a previous post. Maybe a larger underpitch would have more of a difference. I dry hopped and capped my fermenter yesterday. I've never brewed an IPA with S04 on its own, I'm excited to see if I can pick up any TH similarities.

I also just read recently that S04 can have banana like aromas when stressed??? never heard that before. Would remind me of a hefe or belgian strain I suppose. Anyone hear of this?
 
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TheHairyHop said:
I never did, and I still don't. I think that they're just getting a lot of character from their hops that other people aren't. I've never opened a can of TH and said. "this smells like a damn hefe!" or whatever that blogger said.
I haven't been on HBT that much, but it's kind of interesting to see that there still isn't anything conclusive about the yeast strains.
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One thing I’ve been focusing on lately is process. Not just my own, but how different breweries can use the same recipe and produce drastically different products. The All Together recipe is a great representation of this. I’ve had about 6 different versions of this beer and all are noticeably different - none on the level of Other Half so far.

If we take two beers from the same brewery we can assume that for the most part, the majority of the process is the same. Point being, if you take a core TH IPA and drink it back to back with its bright counterpart it will give you a very good idea of what the house yeast contributes to the end product.

Yes, there are subtle difference between a beer like Green and Bright w/Galaxy, but drinking them together it becomes obvious that the difference in the beer that’s considered world class, and the beer that’s considered a run of the mill NEIPA is the esters. Once you get beyond those flavors they are extremely similar. So I’m not a believer that the reason TH beers are so good can be solely attributed to the hop flavors.
 
TBryerton said:
One thing I’ve been focusing on lately is process. Not just my own, but how different breweries can use the same recipe and produce drastically different products. The All Together recipe is a great representation of this. I’ve had about 6 different versions of this beer and all are noticeably different - none on the level of Other Half so far.

If we take two beers from the same brewery we can assume that for the most part, the majority of the process is the same. Point being, if you take a core TH IPA and drink it back to back with its bright counterpart it will give you a very good idea of what the house yeast contributes to the end product.

Yes, there are subtle difference between a beer like Green and Bright w/Galaxy, but drinking them together it becomes obvious that the difference in the beer that’s considered world class, and the beer that’s considered a run of the mill NEIPA is the esters. Once you get beyond those flavors they are extremely similar. So I’m not a believer that the reason TH beers are so good can be solely attributed to the hop flavors.
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I guess that's where my palate differs. I don't think that TH beers are extremely similar. I find a distinct difference between every beer. It's a positive input cycle of perception. If the esters were a big deal, they would all taste the same to me, but they don't 🤷‍♂️
EDIT: To clarify, I very much do think that esters play a role in a good beer. For sure. I just don't think that they're part of a significant and complex yeast blending process. The large difference in results from the Reddit analysis and the HBT analysis should be a red flag
 
TheHairyHop said:
I guess that's where my palate differs. I don't think that TH beers are extremely similar. I find a distinct difference between every beer. It's a positive input cycle of perception. If the esters were a big deal, they would all taste the same to me, but they don't 🤷‍♂️
EDIT: To clarify, I very much do think that esters play a role in a good beer. For sure. I just don't think that they're part of a significant and complex yeast blending process. The large difference in results from the Reddit analysis and the HBT analysis should be a red flag
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I’ve never once said all TH beers taste the same.
 
TheHairyHop said:
I read your statement about the two beers being extremely similar as such. It's not always easy to interpret a forum post exactly as intended.
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Agree 100%. But yes, I was saying those two specific beers are similar. If you take Bright w/Galaxy for example, we know they are using a very simple grain bill with a neutral yeast, presumably US05, with the intention of expressing the hop flavor. In this case Galaxy. If we look at Green I think it’s safe to assume that it is also a simple grain bill, and we know it’s focus was to express the flavor from Galaxy hops. They did end up mixing in a small % of American hops but I believe it’s still 80% Galaxy. When you drink side by side you can tell how close these two really are, but that core TH ‘flavor’ that exists in all their beer they describe using ‘house yeast’ is the difference in Green.
 
Said screw it and gonna brew something with the isolate that was labeled WB-06.

I would say there’s no way it’s WB-06. I bumped it up to a 1.5L starter on a stir plate a few days ago. Gonna brew with it today. It smells incredibly clean and seems to flocculate well. Definitely doesn’t smell like SO4 at all either. I’m a little concerned about attenuation so planning on mashing quite low.

Rahr 2 Row
5% Carafoam
2% Belgian Aromatic

Co2 Extract for 22 IBUs at 60
Citra/Centennial @ 10 35 IBUs

No WP hops but

Hopback
3oz Idaho 7 Leaf + 1oz Columbus Leaf

Going to ferment on the cooler side to start, maybe 64 for first two days then let it rise to 68/70.

Plan is to dry hop at 55 for 4-5 days after a cold crash to remove yeast.

If the beer resembles something half way decent after fermentation DH will be mostly Simcoe with a bit of Centennial and a bit of Idaho 7. (Got some amazing Simcoe and Centennial recently that I really want to use).
 
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My batch with S04 doesn't really scream Tree House, I just kegged it last night. The sample was honestly underwhelming so I hit it with an ounce of hops in the keg. Once its carbed up and I pull a pour I'll update. It is also surprisingly clear.

OG 1.071
Rahr 2 row
10% carafoam
8% munich
2% wheat

All HBC 586 hops. Dry hopped on day 4 with 4oz at 1.018 SG.
 
I also have an all s04 batch going that I’ll dry hop tomorrow. Depending on the gravity and smell taste, I might throw in some t-58. Well see.
Also, FWIW, Equilibrium mentioned that they use a “proprietary yeast blend” on IG in a comment.
 
I’ve never really used s04 alone in a hoppy beer. I’ve always mixed in a little T-58, or s33 and even a little be256. Only a couple times I mixed in wb-06 and will never do that again, however, I never added it with the hops. My s04 batch is going to be a very nice beer, but not in any way treehouse yeast expression. I decided to just dry hop it and not add any yeast with the dry hop. The hydro sample tasted good and I don’t want to ruin a good batch of beer. It’s fruity but no TH esters. Not even bready for me and I used 50% pils for this batch. Their yeast throws out a lot Isoamyl acetate for me. I also have found that yeast and hop type mixture plays a big role in the aroma. The last time I used Voss with citra, Simcoe and Amarillo in a double ipa, it reminded me of haze a lot. Definity had that TH ester thing. Anyone else try anything new?
 
some interesting reads on yeast blending techniques

https://www.sea-brew.com/post/co-fermentation-and-blending-yeast
https://www.whitelabs.com/beer/using-multiple-yeast-strains
http://www.homebrewersassociation.o...df/2014/A Guide To Blending Yeast Strains.pdf
my apologies if these were mentioned previously in this thread. I've read it all, but its been a long time running.

Some touch upon talk of pitching a yeast first for flavor and then pitching another yeast after for attenuation or more nuanced flavor contribution.
 
Update: “WB-06” beer is still fermenting, albeit slowly now and I’m a little worried it’s not going to fully attenuate. First sample on day 2 was straight juicy fruit gum. I’ve never experienced that taste/aroma in fermenting beer. I know it’s been a prominent descriptor of TH beers aroma (or used to be before the production got even bigger). There are no phenols present that I can tell. That “juicy fruit” character has faded a bit and hops are starting to come through a bit more.

I’m wondering if this is some sort of POF- wine yeast. Based on how the PCR looks and what we know from the yeast genome study the likelihood of this being a wine or wine like yeast is quite high. Or higher than other yeasts. It’s definitely not WB-06, nor does it seem to be wlp644.

Anyone ever fermented a hoppy beer with 71B wine yeast? I’ve used K1v-1116 before but never 71B.
 
couchsending said:
Update: “WB-06” beer is still fermenting, albeit slowly now and I’m a little worried it’s not going to fully attenuate. First sample on day 2 was straight juicy fruit gum. I’ve never experienced that taste/aroma in fermenting beer. I know it’s been a prominent descriptor of TH beers aroma (or used to be before the production got even bigger). There are no phenols present that I can tell. That “juicy fruit” character has faded a bit and hops are starting to come through a bit more.

I’m wondering if this is some sort of POF- wine yeast. Based on how the PCR looks and what we know from the yeast genome study the likelihood of this being a wine or wine like yeast is quite high. Or higher than other yeasts. It’s definitely not WB-06, nor does it seem to be wlp644.

Anyone ever fermented a hoppy beer with 71B wine yeast? I’ve used K1v-1116 before but never 71B.
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I've tried Lalvin 71B and Mangrove CY17 together with la1318 and conan. Can't say I got anything from it other then my beers where a bit more phenolic then normally and not in a good way.
 
beervoid said:
I've tried Lalvin 71B and Mangrove CY17 together with la1318 and conan. Can't say I got anything from it other then my beers where a bit more phenolic then normally and not in a good way.
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Pretty sure 71B is POF- however
 
couchsending said:
Pretty sure 71B is POF- however
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They both are I think but still I got this fruity thing I identified as "phenolic"ish... maybe bubblegum? not tropical or nice fruity. It wasn't bad but not what I was looking for.
I do however think you might be right that TH possibly uses wine yeast. I suspect it cause apart from being able to bio-transform and add fruity esters it can also improve body/mouthfeel. And this wine yeast experimentation has been on the radar for quiet a while in the brewing world.
This is an interesting podcast on it from 2008!
http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/post1888/
 
beervoid said:
The comment section of that site raises a good point. If anyone could do analysis on a commercial beer that we know has only one strain how many yeasts would be found?
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I have also been wondering what a 500 g brick of S-04 looks like plated out after 2 or 3 generations. Any contamination from the source will have expanded. My previous comments in this thread come from considering the results of the two analyses. Whenever I repeat an experiment at work, and I get two different results, I stop thinking about the results and start thinking about the source of the data
 
TheHairyHop said:
I have also been wondering what a 500 g brick of S-04 looks like plated out after 2 or 3 generations. Any contamination from the source will have expanded. My previous comments in this thread come from considering the results of the two analyses. Whenever I repeat an experiment at work, and I get two different results, I stop thinking about the results and start thinking about the source of the data
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You may have just been speaking generically or about the differences between the reddit thread and this one, but 3-5 different TH cans were tested. Always had the same profiles popping up.

@Clyde McCoy said he was going to pick up the torch, would be interesting to screen something like Bells 2 Hearted.
 
isomerization said:
You may have just been speaking generically or about the differences between the reddit thread and this one, but 3-5 different TH cans were tested. Always had the same profiles popping up.

@Clyde McCoy said he was going to pick up the torch, would be interesting to screen something like Bells 2 Hearted.
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Ha, I streaked out US-05, S-04, K-97, S-33, WB-06, and T-58 the other day. Maybe I'll do the PCR this week. Surely more important than my real work 😂
 
Here’s a pic of my S04 batch. Dry hopped with mosaic, Vic and Motueka hops. Pilsner/pale wheat with a touch of honey malt. Reminds me Eureka a bit. Maybe they blend the wine yeast with an English type yeast?
 

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couchsending said:
Update: “WB-06” beer is still fermenting, albeit slowly now and I’m a little worried it’s not going to fully attenuate. First sample on day 2 was straight juicy fruit gum. I’ve never experienced that taste/aroma in fermenting beer. I know it’s been a prominent descriptor of TH beers aroma (or used to be before the production got even bigger). There are no phenols present that I can tell. That “juicy fruit” character has faded a bit and hops are starting to come through a bit more.

I’m wondering if this is some sort of POF- wine yeast. Based on how the PCR looks and what we know from the yeast genome study the likelihood of this being a wine or wine like yeast is quite high. Or higher than other yeasts. It’s definitely not WB-06, nor does it seem to be wlp644.

Anyone ever fermented a hoppy beer with 71B wine yeast? I’ve used K1v-1116 before but never 71B.
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How’s your beer doing? I’m so interested now in trying 71B.
 
So after listening to this I’m definitely interested in trying out 71B as well. He suggests, or at least alludes to, a brewery that uses 70% beer yeast and 30% 71B, pitching them together. This seems simple enough to do with s-04/71B and I think i’m Definitely going to give it a go.
 
isomerization said:
You may have just been speaking generically or about the differences between the reddit thread and this one, but 3-5 different TH cans were tested. Always had the same profiles popping up.

@Clyde McCoy said he was going to pick up the torch, would be interesting to screen something like Bells 2 Hearted.
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I was referring to the difference in results between the two different testers. I did miss where 3-5 cans were tested.

It does seem that something similar to a control could help the deduction process. Since Bells uses a house yeast, I don't know if that would be the best example. But, I do think it's a start.
 
TheHairyHop said:
I was referring to the difference in results between the two different testers. I did miss where 3-5 cans were tested.

It does seem that something similar to a control could help the deduction process. Since Bells uses a house yeast, I don't know if that would be the best example. But, I do think it's a start.
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They sell their house yeast: Imperial Yeast A62 Bell's House Yeast

Looks like it’s sold out for now though.
 
Bell’s yeast is also available through The Yeast Bay... It’s incredibly clean. Floccs better than Chico. More similar to 1272 it seems.

So as expected whatever yeast I used only got down to 1.022. I mashed at 148 for 75 minutes in hopes of preventing that as much as possible but to no avail. I tried adding 2g of SO4 but that didn’t seem to do much.

So I just did a dry hop charge of the hops that I’ve heard can be the biggest Hop Creep perpetrators. Amarillo, Centennial, El Dorado, Mosaic. 9oz total somewhat split evenly. Gonna give it 4 days to see if I can get closer to 1.016 hopefully. For some reason I doubt it but we’ll see.
 
couchsending said:
Bell’s yeast is also available through The Yeast Bay... It’s incredibly clean. Floccs better than Chico. More similar to 1272 it seems.

So as expected whatever yeast I used only got down to 1.022. I mashed at 148 for 75 minutes in hopes of preventing that as much as possible but to no avail. I tried adding 2g of SO4 but that didn’t seem to do much.

So I just did a dry hop charge of the hops that I’ve heard can be the biggest Hop Creep perpetrators. Amarillo, Centennial, El Dorado, Mosaic. 9oz total somewhat split evenly. Gonna give it 4 days to see if I can get closer to 1.016 hopefully. For some reason I doubt it but we’ll see.
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Could it be the conditioning strain like F2 or CBC1? They don't ferment maltotriose if I remember correctly so likely wouldnt fully attenuate?
 
HopsAreGood said:
So after listening to this I’m definitely interested in trying out 71B as well. He suggests, or at least alludes to, a brewery that uses 70% beer yeast and 30% 71B, pitching them together. This seems simple enough to do with s-04/71B and I think i’m Definitely going to give it a go.
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I just brewed an ipa and pitched 7grams of s-04 and 3grams of 71B. Very typical ipa that I brew all the time so hopefully I’ll be able to pick out anything different and or interesting the 71B is contributing. 1.072 OG.

7DB19A9E-8694-4CB5-9128-C315536E61DA.jpeg
 
Could you take a bunch of tree house beers and add some sugar to make a usable culture of their yeast? IE take a haze (or several) add some DME or dextros and let it ride on a stir plate and add sugar to get enough yeast and then harvest the yeast for a fresh brew day?

I have a fridge full of haze and Julius that I may give it a shot if it could work...
 
IBRUTOO said:
Could you take a bunch of tree house beers and add some sugar to make a usable culture of their yeast? IE take a haze (or several) add some DME or dextros and let it ride on a stir plate and add sugar to get enough yeast and then harvest the yeast for a fresh brew day?

I have a fridge full of haze and Julius that I may give it a shot if it could work...
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You should start at the beginning of this thread... won’t take long to realize that won’t work very well
 
IBRUTOO said:
Could you take a bunch of tree house beers and add some sugar to make a usable culture of their yeast? IE take a haze (or several) add some DME or dextros and let it ride on a stir plate and add sugar to get enough yeast and then harvest the yeast for a fresh brew day?

I have a fridge full of haze and Julius that I may give it a shot if it could work...
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There appears to be a conditioning strain that kills/suppresses other yeast, so you’re likely to just end up with a culture of that.

I think those that have tried did not care for the result.
 
Cool! I just did a Pils wort with Lalvin D47 alone. I also added glycoamylase to the carboy. Cant wait to taste it. Maybe I’ll split it into two kegs and dry hop half, or not. Interesting test of wine yeast either way.

HopsAreGood said:
I just brewed an ipa and pitched 7grams of s-04 and 3grams of 71B. Very typical ipa that I brew all the time so hopefully I’ll be able to pick out anything different and or interesting the 71B is contributing. 1.072 OG.

View attachment 683308
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TheHairyHop said:
I was intending to point out that it's not a dried yeast from the same supplier, therefore it wouldn't be a good check on purity. Knowing what commercial brewery supposedly uses just S-04 is the hurdle though
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Gotcha, I didn’t realize you were thinking along that line (dry yeast contamination). I don’t think that’s very likely, at least at the scale we are going to pick up on.

My thinking was to see how “clean” this process would be using a commercial beer with a known yeast. Like, I’d you plated the dregs and PCR’d 10-20 colonies, would they all be identical?
 

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