Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

[HopsAreGood]

What grainbill did you use? And was it really much different in terms of mouthfeel with your previous batches? I did not notice any mouthfeel improvement and always do split batches to confim.
Perhaps I might have to pitch more next time.

11 pounds 2-row
2.5 pounds white wheat
.5 pounds c-10
.5 pounds carapils
I’ve used this grain bill many times..it’s my trillium-esque one so I’m very familiar with it. Yes, This beer has a noticeably softer mouthfeel for sure. It’s very very young so things can definitely change though. My hope is that fruity yeast character calms down a little, the hops come through more, and the mouthfeel remains. We’ll see.

Mash 152, 5.3 ph
Chloride to sulfate 160 to 60

From the TDS:

“Mouthfeel effect of this yeast”

 

[brewpharm Hill]

My most recent batch was an under pitch of s04 by mr malty standards by 2.5 grams. I pitched 1 packet into 5 gallons of 1.071 wort at 64 degrees and let it free rise to 66 degrees. Mr. Malty seems confident that dry yeast is 20 billion cells/gram.
Gotta say that I definitely got a little of that S04 twang. I’m not in love with the results and definitely no TH esters. Going to keep playing around with pitching rates and temps. But so far I can’t say it was reminiscent of TH... maybe a few similarities at best. Not a bad beer, but I don’t get that twang in TH. Certainly get the breadiness though in TH.

 

[echoALEia]

Summary of PCR results so far -

View attachment 685295
View attachment 685296
View attachment 685297

If you have access to TH beers and are willing to ship (ideally older cans), PM me and I'll test them side-by-side.

Can I send you some TH green, Monkish and other stuff?

 

[brewpharm Hill]

@Clyde McCoy I'll also be going to TH in a few weeks so I'd be happy to ship a couple cans

 

[isomerization]

My most recent batch was an under pitch of s04 by mr malty standards by 2.5 grams. I pitched 1 packet into 5 gallons of 1.071 wort at 64 degrees and let it free rise to 66 degrees. Mr. Malty seems confident that dry yeast is 20 billion cells/gram.
Gotta say that I definitely got a little of that S04 twang. I’m not in love with the results and definitely no TH esters. Going to keep playing around with pitching rates and temps. But so far I can’t say it was reminiscent of TH... maybe a few similarities at best. Not a bad beer, but I don’t get that twang in TH. Certainly get the breadiness though in TH.

I think someone in the past has mentioned here that S-04 produces more organic acids (can’t be lactic) than typical Sacc yeasts. I got the same thing you described when I used it in an IPA on two different occasions.

 

[TheHairyHop]

View attachment 685299So I carbed it up and this beer is SOFT and THICK on the palette. It still has that very fruity wine like thing going on but it’s very enjoyable to drink. My best guess is that the 71B is really contributing to the mouthfeel due to the high levels of glycerol it produces. I think I’ll try playing with some different combos going forward...both yeast combos and ratios. My next brew is going to be with omegas version of 1318 so maybe I’ll try that whole pack and 2 or 3 grams of 71B.

Your process looks like it's spot on. I recently switched brewing systems, and I've been disappointed with every batch. I miss being "dialed in"

 

[TheHairyHop]

I think someone in the past has mentioned here that S-04 produces more organic acids (can’t be lactic) than typical Sacc yeasts. I got the same thing you described when I used it in an IPA on two different occasions.

I got so much twang from just keg conditioning with S-04 krausen that I thought it was infected for a second

 

[brewpharm Hill]

I’m assuming it’s caused by under pitching? More growth creating more organic acids... so I’m wondering if I pitched the recommended amount if it would subside or decrease. Or just ferment cooler. I plan on testing it all at some point.

 

[Clyde McCoy]

I have recently gotten tartness/apple from using S-04 as well. My (untested) thinking is that it needs to be kept cooler <64F, perhaps ~60F, including during peak of fermentation. S-04 is such a vigorous strain that I think it can easily reach 8-12F above ambient if left uncontrolled. More batches required...

 

[secretlevel]

Summary of PCR results so far -

View attachment 685295
View attachment 685296
View attachment 685297

If you have access to TH beers and are willing to ship (ideally older cans), PM me and I'll test them side-by-side.

I think many of these have been tested earlier on in the thread but something nobody has done is test blends of yeasts. I wonder if mixing certain ratios of yeasts can trigger different esters than a stand-alone strain would...

 

[brewpharm Hill]

I have recently gotten tartness/apple from using S-04 as well. My (untested) thinking is that it needs to be kept cooler <64F, perhaps ~60F, including during peak of fermentation. S-04 is such a vigorous strain that I think it can easily reach 8-12F above ambient if left uncontrolled. More batches required...

Agreed. When looking at the picture of the TH temp control panel in Monson the highest all of their FVs was 66 with the exception of one at 70. Everything else was in the high 50s - 66 if I remember correctly. Might worth fermenting in the cool side to see what kind of ester profile is achieved and if the tang subsides.

 

[NJGeorge]

I recently fermented a pale ale at exactly 66 in a spike conical with temp control and I got no tartness or apple. Very pleasant beer. I have an ipa carbing up that was so4/s33 fermented at 66 and it is also not tart.

 

[beervoid]

I recently fermented a pale ale at exactly 66 in a spike conical with temp control and I got no tartness or apple. Very pleasant beer. I have an ipa carbing up that was so4/s33 fermented at 66 and it is also not tart.

Higher temp is faster fermentation is lower ph drop.

 

[NJGeorge]

Higher temp is faster fermentation is lower ph drop.

I’ll check my notes, but fermentation finished in around 5-7 days. I’ll also check my wort ph at yeast pitch. For this batch I think it was 5.4 but I’ll check. That should be a factor as well. I’ve never really perceived s04 as THAT tart. I think my kviek beers were more tart.

 

[Noob_Brewer]

I have an ipa carbing up that was so4/s33 fermented at 66 and it is also not tart

What was your ratio of SO4/S33?

 

[NJGeorge]

66%/33%

 

[brewpharm Hill]

s04/s33 is a nice combo. Did a beer with it back in december and it had an incredible mouthfeel. I did 9 grams of s04 and 4 grams of s33

 

[Clyde McCoy]

I think many of these have been tested earlier on in the thread but something nobody has done is test blends of yeasts. I wonder if mixing certain ratios of yeasts can trigger different esters than a stand-alone strain would...

These bands represent amplicons of genomic DNA, not esters. In this context, mixing strains would be additive in terms of banding, e.g. WLP644 x Conan hybrid (this is a hybrid not a mix of strains, but same idea) Creating a new ’super fruity’ yeast strain – The best of Conan and WLP644? | Suregork Loves Beer

 

[Oophaga]

s04/s33 is a nice combo. Did a beer with it back in december and it had an incredible mouthfeel. I did 9 grams of s04 and 4 grams of s33

What temp did you ferment at?

 

[brewpharm Hill]

What temp did you ferment at?

well... its a long story. The controller was set to 66 and I had a malfunction with temp control so realistically it was probably 68-72. No off flavors or fusels that I could detect though. Came out quite fruity and no tang.

 

[secretlevel]

These bands represent amplicons of genomic DNA, not esters. In this context, mixing strains would be additive in terms of banding, e.g. WLP644 x Conan hybrid (this is a hybrid not a mix of strains, but same idea) Creating a new ’super fruity’ yeast strain – The best of Conan and WLP644? | Suregork Loves Beer

My apologies, this is far from my area of expertise, but that's a great article. Going all the way back in this thread, I think we already decided that Treehouse uses a blend of yeasts or a hybrid of some sort.
If that is indeed true and judging based on the study you linked, would the hybrid have a band that looks somewhat different than either of its parent isolates?

To reiterate, it looks like the Hybrid bands from the above article look different from WLP644 or Conan individually. In which case, a band from a blend of WLP644 and Conan would probably come much closer to resembling the Hybrid band than WLP644 or Conan alone... Thus, we should probably be testing blends, rather than single isolated strains.

 

[Clyde McCoy]

My apologies, this is far from my area of expertise, but that's a great article. Going all the way back in this thread, I think we already decided that Treehouse uses a blend of yeasts or a hybrid of some sort.
If that is indeed true and judging based on the study you linked, would the hybrid have a band that looks somewhat different than either of its parent isolates?

To reiterate, it looks like the Hybrid bands from the above article look different from WLP644 or Conan individually. In which case, a band from a blend of WLP644 and Conan would probably come much closer to resembling the Hybrid band than WLP644 or Conan alone... Thus, we should probably be testing blends, rather than single isolated strains.

Isomerization's results suggest that TH is using a blend rather than a hybrid, because he found matches between the TH isolates and individual Fermentis strains. I am spending some time to validate these results.

 

[OldDogBrewing]

My only hold up with considering that they use a blend of yeast for fermentation is that would (seemingly) be really difficult to maintain over time. I'd expect growth rates to throw off the ratios over time and result in different fermentation/flavor/etc profiles. Something that is more likely (in my mind) is that they are using a genetic cross of two strains, something like the Conan x WLP644 strains (discussed here Conan x WLP644 hybrid).

That doesn't explain why, as you mentioned, there haven't been any attempts to sell this strain by a commercial yeast lab. I've seen several mentions on HBT and other blog sites of people cultivating yeast from TH cans. I didn't test individual yeast colonies for genetic diversity though.

My issue with identification is that I don't have access to the right database (I think). I've contacted some companies that do contract work for professional brewers, but the fees aren't worth the information ($200). While I hate waiting for information, the best course in this case is to do some split batches and compare the yeast I harvested against WY1318, Conan and the like.

You can mantain a mixed culture if you propagate them individually and blend them at the same rate when pitching or even have a lab do that for you every time

 

[NJGeorge]

I’d be interested in learning about EQ brewings yeast/ingredients and their process. Some of their beers are very similar to TH imo.

 

[TBryerton]

I’d be interested in learning about EQ brewings yeast/ingredients and their process. Some of their beers are very similar to TH imo.

Really? Not being sarcastic but I haven’t had a EQ beer that tastes anything like TH.

 

[NJGeorge]

Really? Not being sarcastic but I haven’t had a EQ beer that tastes anything like TH.

Yeah they are different but I find similarities in some of their offerings. Fluctuation is good. However, I find their beer more tart. Could be the malt? Hopping process? High yeast esters especially isoamyl acetate. They mentioned they use a yeast blend.

 

[NJGeorge]

@couchsending how did that batch you brewed with isolate turn out? Any updates on the finished beer? Still think it’s a wine yeast?

 

[couchsending]

@couchsending how did that batch you brewed with isolate turn out? Any updates on the finished beer? Still think it’s a wine yeast?

Horrible. One of the worst beers I’ve made in a long time. Yes I still think it’s wine yeast of some sort.

 

[beervoid]

Horrible. One of the worst beers I’ve made in a long time. Yes I still think it’s wine yeast of some sort.

How much attenuation did you get?
Are you planning a small starter beer to compare with some wine yeast?

Anything about mouthfeel?

 

[NJGeorge]

Has anyone tried fermenting with Lalvin ICV K1-V1116? Supposedly this is a wine yeast that can be used alone to ferment wort. I read somewhere that there was a brewpub in Canada that used this for their house yeast. It is also a killer yeast.
I'm interested in giving it a try but first I will try the 71b in a co-pitch or pitch it first and then a couple days later pitch a yeast like S04 to finish it off.
Checkout this article Brewing With Wine Yeast - Brew Your Own

 

[brewpharm Hill]

Took another take on the trio yesterday since I finally got an accurate enough scale. Pitched at pitched at 78 and chilled to 72. I'll bump it down to 63-64 today at 4:30 (24 hours post pitch). Blow off was bubbling nicely this morning and the smell from the blow off is definitely reminiscent of TH.

I did not aerate/oxygenate or rehydrate.

 

[NJGeorge]

Took another take on the trio yesterday since I finally got an accurate enough scale. Pitched at pitched at 78 and chilled to 72. I'll bump it down to 63-64 today at 4:30 (24 hours post pitch). Blow off was bubbling nicely this morning and the smell from the blow off is definitely reminiscent of TH.

I did not aerate/oxygenate or rehydrate.

I wonder if pitching a killer wine yeast now like the one mentioned above would kill the wb and prevent it from producing clove and keep all those nice esters.

 

[brewpharm Hill]

I plan on carbonating with CBC1 in the keg. Secondary fermentation/natural carbonation in belgian beers is known to soften the higher alcohols, esters, phenols etc so it may play into it. @robopp said he gets zero clove so I'm copying his method which is essentially the Trinity clone. My past attempts failed due to the inaccurate scale I was using.

 

[suregork]

A potentially relevant poster abstract at this year's WBC:

"Can we rescue Beer infected with Diastaticus during fermentation: A profile in killer yeast and the effect of co-fermentation on the superattenuative characteristics of diastaticus."
https://brewing.confex.com/brewing/2020/meetingapp.cgi/Paper/1383
They show that killer yeasts, such as CBC-1, inhibit diastatic yeasts. I didn't have time to go through this thread, but I seem to remember the early PCR results suggested CBC-1 might be one of strains? Maybe it is used to prevent overattenuation by WB-06 (or supressing the phenolic character)

 

[brewpharm Hill]

A potentially relevant poster abstract at this year's WBC:

"Can we rescue Beer infected with Diastaticus during fermentation: A profile in killer yeast and the effect of co-fermentation on the superattenuative characteristics of diastaticus."
https://brewing.confex.com/brewing/2020/meetingapp.cgi/Paper/1383
They show that killer yeasts, such as CBC-1, inhibit diastatic yeasts. I didn't have time to go through this thread, but I seem to remember the early PCR results suggested CBC-1 might be one of strains? Maybe it is used to prevent overattenuation by WB-06 (or supressing the phenolic character)

thanks for the link. That is my plan and what some of us believe TH may be using.

Yup. CBC1 is from lallemand so TH may be using F2 which is the Fermentis conditioning strain. I think I remembering reading somewhere that CBC1 essentially a champagne/wine yeast. I've used it several times in the past with great results, but never with the suspected "trio."

 

[Noob_Brewer]

View attachment 685299So I carbed it up and this beer is SOFT and THICK on the palette. It still has that very fruity wine like thing going on but it’s very enjoyable to drink. My best guess is that the 71B is really contributing to the mouthfeel due to the high levels of glycerol it produces. I think I’ll try playing with some different combos going forward...both yeast combos and ratios. My next brew is going to be with omegas version of 1318 so maybe I’ll try that whole pack and 2 or 3 grams of 71B.

Hey man just checking in to see how the final version of this came out? Very curious. Been about 2 weeks since you kegged?

 

[NJGeorge]

thanks for the link. That is my plan and what some of us believe TH may be using.

Yup. CBC1 is from lallemand so TH may be using F2 which is the Fermentis conditioning strain. I think I remembering reading somewhere that CBC1 essentially a champagne/wine yeast. I've used it several times in the past with great results, but never with the suspected "trio."

If that’s the case. I would try pitching that yeast now to stop wb. I’m telling you, no matter how many times I’ve used wb (low % with accurate scale, no hydration or airation) I always get some phenolic character that never really ages away, even when Naturally carbonated at the end. Because by then, the damage is done. Maybe when you get the desired esters you like, pitch the killer yeast to preserve those flavors and stop any clove that might some through. Maybe I’m just over thinking this all! Haha

 

[brewpharm Hill]

If that’s the case. I would try pitching that yeast now to stop wb. I’m telling you, no matter how many times I’ve used wb (low % with accurate scale, no hydration or airation) I always get some phenolic character that never really ages away, even when Naturally carbonated at the end. Because by then, the damage is done. Maybe when you get the desired esters you like, pitch the killer yeast to preserve those flavors and stop any clove that might some through. Maybe I’m just over thinking this all! Haha

I mashed at 156 so I don't think there will be any sugars left that cbc1 can ferment and its at about 1.025 SG right now. It doesn't ferment maltotriose if I'm not mistaken so I'm just going to let it ride! FWIW I just dry hopped and I couldn't pick up any clove/hefe like aroma. In previous failed trials I could smell it. Here's to experimentation...

 

[TheHairyHop]

If that’s the case. I would try pitching that yeast now to stop wb. I’m telling you, no matter how many times I’ve used wb (low % with accurate scale, no hydration or airation) I always get some phenolic character that never really ages away, even when Naturally carbonated at the end. Because by then, the damage is done. Maybe when you get the desired esters you like, pitch the killer yeast to preserve those flavors and stop any clove that might some through. Maybe I’m just over thinking this all! Haha

You're not overthinking it, because, in my mind, the WB-06 still doesn't make any sense.

 

[NJGeorge]

“Unpasteurized, bottle-conditioned commercial beers may or may not contain the primary yeast strain used for fermentation. Many examples are filtered or centrifuged before packaging and then re-dosed with a neutral ale, lager, or wine strain for packaging. This helps ensure consistent carbonation and can protect a brewery’s proprietary culture. Other brewers, however, are content to ship beer that includes a full complement of their own brewing microbes.” Join the Culture Club: Brew With Yeast From Commercial Beer!