Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

[echoALEia]

Great finding!. How many grams did you add of T-58 and WB06 for your hop cannon?

8g T-58 and 4g WB06 (remember this is for a 1bbl batch)

 

[echoALEia]

I’m able to get that flavour (I think it’s actually sweetness from sugars in the hops that enhances the hop flavours) to stick around by dry hopping in the keg after the beer has been cooled and is in the process of carbonating.

I’ll try the same process but inject when the beer is cooled next time! Thanks!

 

[jfolks]

This thread was basically summarized in the latest issue of Zymurgy [emoji869]

 

[duelerx]

This thread was basically summarized in the latest issue of Zymurgy [emoji869]

Also saw the Zymurgy recipe, so is that the latest recommended recipe and pitching rates taken from this thread?

 

[tld6008]

Also saw the Zymurgy recipe, so is that the latest recommended recipe and pitching rates taken from this thread?

I wouldn't say so, the recipe in the Zymergy is basically what has been on the Trinity Brewers Collaboration web site for quite some time although it is a little easier to understand in the recent format. The main difference I see is the extended whirlpool time from 30 to 60 min.

 

[isomerization]

I wouldn't say so, the recipe in the Zymergy is basically what has been on the Trinity Brewers Collaboration web site for quite some time although it is a little easier to understand in the recent format. The main difference I see is the extended whirlpool time from 30 to 60 min.

Absolutely, the Trinity website poster is MarshallB or something like that from very early in this thread, so I’d say Zymurgy attributes the right source.

 

[tld6008]

Absolutely, the Trinity website poster is MarshallB or something like that from very early in this thread, so I’d say Zymurgy attributes the right source.

Absolutely what? Are you saying MarshallBs recipe, that is in Zymurgy, is a result of this thread? Just trying to clarify what you are saying as I don't think this thread adheres to his findings that closely.

 

[isomerization]

Absolutely what? Are you saying MarshallBs recipe, that is in Zymurgy, is a result of this thread? Just trying to clarify what you are saying as I don't think this thread adheres to his findings that closely.

No, was mainly agreeing with you and stating that his blog post had been discussed by him in this thread. I do think his recipe was inspired by this thread, but he did the heavy lifting. I haven’t had luck with the process, but many have, so

 

[tld6008]

No, was mainly agreeing with you and stating that his blog post had been discussed by him in this thread. I do think his recipe was inspired by this thread, but he did the heavy lifting. I haven’t had luck with the process, but many have, so

I take it "not having luck" means it doesn't taste like real Julius? I have made it 4 times but not having tasted Julius I claim to have had luck as it tastes pretty good although this last time it had a yeasty bite that has mostly subsided over 1-1/2 months since kegging. Not using RO water and following the ferm schedule precisely was the only difference

 

[isomerization]

I take it "not having luck" means it doesn't taste like real Julius? I have made it 4 times but not having tasted Julius I claim to have had luck as it tastes pretty good although this last time it had a yeasty bite that has mostly subsided over 1-1/2 months since kegging. Not using RO water and following the ferm schedule precisely was the only difference

Not having luck = substantially worse than very similar NE IPAs I’ve made with 1318, NEEPAH blend and A24.

I have not enjoyed any IPA I’ve tried to make with S-04, so I think that is my issue.

 

[elgee]

I’ve been reading the trinity brewers site and and someone said this past week that a can has been getting analyzed by a lab and claims to confirm Belgian yeast. I wonder what they will fully disclose?

 

[Gardiner4]

I went to Tree House on Friday and Nate was busy brewing. The guy is a machine. I bought a few cases to compare to my first brew. I quickly realized I definitely over pitched the WB-06, as its notes easily take over. I did see giant bags of Weyermann grain on the shelves. Not sure if that is just Carafoam or they use their Pale Malt. The softness of their beer is incredible, and the aroma hits like no other beer on the market.

I ordered a bag of Golden Promise and Rahr Pale Malt. I plan on just trying this again and again until I get the right results.

 

[elgee]

I went to Tree House on Friday and Nate was busy brewing. The guy is a machine. I bought a few cases to compare to my first brew. I quickly realized I definitely over pitched the WB-06, as its notes easily take over. I did see giant bags of Weyermann grain on the shelves. Not sure if that is just Carafoam or they use their Pale Malt. The softness of their beer is incredible, and the aroma hits like no other beer on the market.

I ordered a bag of Golden Promise and Rahr Pale Malt. I plan on just trying this again and again until I get the right results.

What amounts of yeast blend did you use?

 

[Gardiner4]

What amounts of yeast blend did you use?

I calculated using the S04/T58/WB06:92%/5%/3% ratios. I did a 5 gallon batch.

1 full packet of S04(11.5g)
.625g of T58
.375g of WB06.
Total of 12.5g of dry yeast.

I made a huge rookie mistake though. I stupidly poured all the yeasts in one bowl on the gram scale. On the WB-06 I tapped the packet too hard and I over poured. I learned my lesson, use separate bowls next time.

 

[RTE]

I liked my results adding WB-06 late. No risk of getting hefe flavors. I taste zero hefe in Julius so if wb-06 is there its not for the esters and there is no need to pitch it during the first 48 hours.

 

[elgee]

Went to Trillium today and I am thinking they are also using a yeast blend. Most of the beers seem to have a similar yeast profile to TH from what I could taste. I know people claim that they use Conan or London Ale III, but I don’t believe that is the case anymore

 

[TBryerton]

Went to Trillium today and I am thinking they are also using a yeast blend. Most of the beers seem to have a similar yeast profile to TH from what I could taste. I know people claim that they use Conan or London Ale III, but I don’t believe that is the case anymore

I really like Trillium and my favorite method of pitching London Ale III is straight into the waste basket so I don’t believe they’re using that for most of their beers. But I don’t find their beers all that similar to TH either.

 

[NJGeorge]

I liked my results adding WB-06 late. No risk of getting hefe flavors. I taste zero hefe in Julius so if wb-06 is there its not for the esters and there is no need to pitch it during the first 48 hours.

When and how much are you adding? Also, what benefit has it provided to your beers?

 

[brewpharm Hill]

Went to Trillium today and I am thinking they are also using a yeast blend. Most of the beers seem to have a similar yeast profile to TH from what I could taste. I know people claim that they use Conan or London Ale III, but I don’t believe that is the case anymore

Up until about a year ago it was known thgat WLP007 was used. They updated their fermentation profile ("yeast and secrets" according to JC). So the WLP007 may or may not be used for their core rotational beers. Their island/lighthouse beers are not using WLP007 becuase they were born out of the permutation series where the "yeast and secrets" in the fermentation profile came from. My first taste of them reminded me of tree house ... but the more I've had them the less they do. Sometimes they're overly sweet. (https://www.trilliumbrewing.com/trillium-news/evolving-fermentation)

 

[brewpharm Hill]

also

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/trillium’s-“new-fermentation-profile-”.649798/

 

[couchsending]

I get zero of the TH esters in Trillium. They’ve changed yeast a lot since the beginning. Originally was 007, then something else, then supposedly some
Conan derivative fermented at 73. From everything I’ve read and tasted pretty sure it’s something closer to LA3 now. Soft and sweet which is the profile of that yeast. Last time I was there I maybe grabbed 4 beers total. Don’t really feel then need to go back there anymore.

 

[brewpharm Hill]

I get zero of the TH esters in Trillium. They’ve changed yeast a lot since the beginning. Originally was 007, then something else, then supposedly some
Conan derivative fermented at 73. From everything I’ve read and tasted pretty sure it’s something closer to LA3 now. Soft and sweet which is the profile of that yeast. Last time I was there I maybe grabbed 4 beers total. Don’t really feel then need to go back there anymore.

Yeah most of their beers have become overly sweet for me. Especially the lighthouse/island beers

 

[tld6008]

I liked my results adding WB-06 late. No risk of getting hefe flavors. I taste zero hefe in Julius so if wb-06 is there its not for the esters and there is no need to pitch it during the first 48 hours.

Interesting regarding your Zero Hefe descripiton. MarshallB who has claimed to have successfully cloned Julius claimed “This is a freakin hefe!” upon drinking Julius which lead to his 3 yeast combination.

 

[couchsending]

Interesting regarding your Zero Hefe descripiton. MarshallB who has claimed to have successfully cloned Julius claimed “This is a freakin hefe!” upon drinking Julius which lead to his 3 yeast combination.

This thread lead to the three yeast combination.. he tried brewing the beer with Hefe yeast long before this thread started.

WB-06 is no Hefe yeast either remember.

I will attempt to grow up the isolate I still have from @isomerization not sure there are any living cells in there but I’ll give it a shot this week. I’ll try to do a side by side with wb-06 to see how they compare if I can successfully grow something up.

 

[tld6008]

I must admit I don't know anything about Hefe yeast and I'm not knowledgeable enough to know what your experiment will prove. I have made his clone recipe four times and there is a distinct yeast flavor that I personally can't describe. I just assumed it was a Hefe flavor based on his writing about the revelation he had when detecting it in Julius. I don't mean to attribute the 3 yeast blend (S04/t58/wb06) idea to anyone in particular, as I don't know, but the specific use of it is more apparent on his web site.

 

[RTE]

When and how much are you adding? Also, what benefit has it provided to your beers?

I roughly used the percentages outlined in this thread. I added about 1g wb-06 with the dry hop. The goal was "biotransformation." Whether that benefit was achieved is hard to say, but I think I picked up more melon, peach and other hard to place fruity notes from my citra dry hop that I would typically. I think both wb-06 and t-58 could both be added later with goal of biotransformation only.

I also fermented the s04 and t-58 combo around 62-64F during the first 72 hours to avoid too much spice from the t-58. I think if you ferment wb-06 at that temp in the first 72 hours you'll end up with banana flavors, another reason to add it later.

My take is that's the purpose of the yeast trio anyway: biotransformation. What exactly that means and what the end result should taste like is vague. Biotransformation also is fickle. Too much and you get muted flavors, not enough and nothing happens. Somewhere in between and you have really interesting subtle flavors.

My impression is that even TH struggles to achieve consistency with their yeasts, at least in larger batches. The best cans in the julius family don't have a lot of banana, clove or belgian flavors that you'll get from large amounts of wb-06 and t-58, where as the average and subpar cans do. That's my $0.02. I'm probably completely wrong.

 

[isomerization]

I must admit I don't know anything about Hefe yeast and I'm not knowledgeable enough to know what your experiment will prove. I have made his clone recipe four times and there is a distinct yeast flavor that I personally can't describe. I just assumed it was a Hefe flavor based on his writing about the revelation he had when detecting it in Julius. I don't mean to attribute the 3 yeast blend (S04/t58/wb06) idea to anyone in particular, as I don't know, but the specific use of it is more apparent on his web site.

I think it’s pretty clear that this thread is the source of the idea to use the multiple yeast strains. Everything after that can be attributed to the individual brewer!

 

[TBryerton]

I brewed a wheat beer over the weekend and I accidentally stumbled onto something I thought was interesting. After I moved the wort to the conical and pitched the yeast (s04) I realized I forgot to grab a sample to get the OG. I quickly grabbed a sample and set the beaker in the sink and didn’t poor it out. I noticed a day or two later the gravity was dropping, and that’s when I realized I must have pulled some of the yeast in. As of today, that sample has a pretty heavy Belgian aroma. Against my wife’s advise, I took a small sip and also had some Belgian flavors. Obviously open fermentation and warmer temps change the results quite a bit, but I was surprised to get this from S04 alone. The beer in the conical has none of that, which was to be expected.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

My take is that's the purpose of the yeast trio anyway: biotransformation. What exactly that means and what the end result should taste like is vague. Biotransformation also is fickle. Too much and you get muted flavors, not enough and nothing happens. Somewhere in between and you have really interesting subtle flavors.

It doesn't help that people talk about biotransformation when referring to two specific processes - the release of hop oils bound up as glycosides (which increases the quantity of free hop oils), and the conversion of eg terpenoids into different chemical compounds (which changes the quality, increasing complexity but reducing quantity a little as the process isn't 100% efficient). T-58 and WB-06 are certainly active in the latter, but WB-06 is a wrecking ball, it tends to smash the hops to pieces and leaves them muted, T-58 is more "Goldilocks".

 

[leesmith]

Just had a few different cans from Treehouse.

I’ve Got Promises to Keep
One of the Curiosity series (Bluejay on the can)
Ssssap

But Super Treat stood out amongst them all. Really nice hop flavor...I’m guessing Citra, Amarillo....

Didn’t get any cloying esters (flavors) from that beer (as I do most Treehouse beers) and reminded me the most of a Hill Farmstead type of beer. Clean and to the point.

Just an observation....as they say it’s fermented with their house yeast.

 

[elgee]

A bit off topic but does anyone have any idea of a clone for juice machine? I had it on tap and was really impressed.

 

[TBryerton]

A bit off topic but does anyone have any idea of a clone for juice machine? I had it on tap and was really impressed.

Malt bill is supposedly the same as King Julius. So probably mostly 2-row, some carafoam, and a little Munich. Im guessing there’s more complexity these days in comparison to Nate’s original statements. Hops are Magnum, Columbus, Amarillo, Citra, and Galaxy

 

[elgee]

Malt bill is supposedly the same as King Julius. So probably mostly 2-row, some carafoam, and a little Munich. Im guessing there’s more complexity these days in comparison to Nate’s original statements. Hops are Magnum, Columbus, Amarillo, Citra, and Galaxy

Thanks, I’ll try to work out a recipe based on this.

 

[NJGeorge]

Also off topic but we talked about this way back in the thread.. for heck of it I propped up some yeast from an EQ can. Straight banana, banana bread and slight clove. Interesting.. the starter tasted and smelled like a hefe to me.

 

[RTE]

I had a can of curiosity 71 last night. Wow, that flavor of that beer was almost all yeast esters to me. By the end it was almost too much Treehouse yeast taste. I could not for the life of me pinpoint what exactly the taste was. It's not quite belgian spicy or hefe clove-y. It made me want to brew two simple beers using T-58 and WB-06 by themselves so I have a better sense of what those yeasts can potentially contribute.

Edit: Also my impression was that by "stressing our yeast in new and untrialled ways to coax exclusive and intriguing fruit esters from fermentation" Treehouse also ended up lowering the FG relative to their other DIPAs. The body felt much lighter and less sweet. Or they used a more simple malt bill to allow the yeast to express itself.

 

[elgee]

I had a can of curiosity 71 last night. Wow, that flavor of that beer was almost all yeast esters to me. By the end it was almost too much Treehouse yeast taste. I could not for the life of me pinpoint what exactly the taste was. It's not quite belgian spicy or hefe clove-y. It made me want to brew two simple beers using T-58 and WB-06 by themselves so I have a better sense of what those yeasts can potentially contribute.

Edit: Also my impression was that by "stressing our yeast in new and untrialled ways to coax exclusive and intriguing fruit esters from fermentation" Treehouse also ended up lowering the FG relative to their other DIPAs. The body felt much lighter and less sweet. Or they used a more simple malt bill to allow the yeast to express itself.

I get the same taste from all their beers, to me, they all seem very treehouse yeast strong and I cannot differentiate any hop varieties. Maybe my palate is not that good?

 

[RTE]

I get the same taste from all their beers, to me, they all seem very treehouse yeast strong and I cannot differentiate any hop varieties. Maybe my palate is not that good?

Or the other way around. Perhaps my palate is no good so only the most yeasty of beers can I pickup that treehouse taste. I think I may have treehouse beer/yeast palate fatigue as well.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I may have treehouse beer/yeast palate fatigue as well.

#firstworldproblems !!!!!!!


It’s not a question of a “better “ or worse palate, different people are sensitive to different chemicals and so perceive things differently. Think of it as a bit like colour blindness, but across thousands of different flavours.

 

[Sbe2]

I will have to do a few comparisons after a few years without having any Treehouse.

 

[RTE]

A bit unrelated but trilliums permutation 6.20 mixes their house ale yeast with a Belgian yeast. On the description page under “malt” they wrote: MALT: WLP 500 and L3.

I’m wondering if this was an error or intentional. Looks like they are listing 2 yeasts: California ale and London III on the page. Could that be their house ale yeast? A blend of California ale presumably for attenuation and London III for those fruity esters?

https://www.trilliumbrewing.com/permutation-620