Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

[jfolks]

Any thoughts on this process?

Other than the temp drop (I’d be afraid of stalling out), this sounds good

 

[tld6008]

Has anyone had cans from the brewery lately? Within the last few months I've noticed an increase in the amount of sediment in the cans. My beer glass now has quite a bit of sediment on the bottom that I've never noticed with Tree House before. I don't mind it, just thought it was curious.

ALSO...I plan on brewing on Columbus day.

I want to use a mix of S04:T58 (95%:5%). I'm hesitant to throw WB06 in since it's my first time blending yeasts and I remember most people had a hard time with except maybe @marshallb and his Julius clone on Trinity. Probably will pitch warm (70-72) for 24 hours to get some of the bubblegum from T58 and then cool it to 66 and let it finish. Anyone have luck with this? I've read the thread and there is just so much to comb through it's hard to keep track of what has worked and what hasn't.

In terms of process I want to ferment in a fermonster and then do a closed pressure transfer to a corny rigged with a cut dip tube, filter, and spunding valve. This will contain my dry hop and will occur right at peak krausen or shortly after. I'll let it finish in there at 66 under ~10 psi. Once done I'll do a closed transfer to it with some gyle and conditioning yeast (likely CBC if I can get my hands on this). When I finalize the recipe I'll post it and let y'all know how it comes out. Any thoughts on this process?

My only thought is I am anxious to find out your results! FWIW I have used the three yeasts as described by Marshallb and have not had any problems, in fact I like the combination. Definitely easy to use.

 

[chieftain]

Has anyone had cans from the brewery lately? Within the last few months I've noticed an increase in the amount of sediment in the cans. My beer glass now has quite a bit of sediment on the bottom that I've never noticed with Tree House before. I don't mind it, just thought it was curious.

ALSO...I plan on brewing on Columbus day.

I want to use a mix of S04:T58 (95%:5%). I'm hesitant to throw WB06 in since it's my first time blending yeasts and I remember most people had a hard time with except maybe @marshallb and his Julius clone on Trinity. Probably will pitch warm (70-72) for 24 hours to get some of the bubblegum from T58 and then cool it to 66 and let it finish. Anyone have luck with this? I've read the thread and there is just so much to comb through it's hard to keep track of what has worked and what hasn't.

In terms of process I want to ferment in a fermonster and then do a closed pressure transfer to a corny rigged with a cut dip tube, filter, and spunding valve. This will contain my dry hop and will occur right at peak krausen or shortly after. I'll let it finish in there at 66 under ~10 psi. Once done I'll do a closed transfer to it with some gyle and conditioning yeast (likely CBC if I can get my hands on this). When I finalize the recipe I'll post it and let y'all know how it comes out. Any thoughts on this process?

Hope this worked for you. I flocc'ed myself doing such a temp drop this past weekend...was late on Saturday night so I pitched a pack of S04 at 72 degrees and set the fermentation chamber for 63...bad idea. No activity 24 hours later. Roused the yeast twice and added some Barbarian dregs I had kicking around and fermentation eventually kicked off Monday morning. Will be adding some T58 and Munich Classic after I raise the temp to 70 or so, tonight or tomorrow morning.

 

[tld6008]

Hope this worked for you. I flocc'ed myself doing such a temp drop this past weekend...was late on Saturday night so I pitched a pack of S04 at 72 degrees and set the fermentation chamber for 63...bad idea. No activity 24 hours later. Roused the yeast twice and added some Barbarian dregs I had kicking around and fermentation eventually kicked off Monday morning. Will be adding some T58 and Munich Classic after I raise the temp to 70 or so, tonight or tomorrow morning.

I pitch my yeast combo at 72 then wait until fermentation begins (always less than 24 hrs) then ramp down to 64 and hold for six to eight days

 

[JohnConnor]

We had some discussion regarding the use of Windsor. I just tapped my Galaxy/Citra IPA with 80% windsor/20% S04. Not a fan. I definitely get the alcoholic and tart descriptors. But I don't get any of those fruit flavors. Maybe those are very delicate and my hopping dose is drowning them out. And yeasty. When it was young, there was a very heavy yeast note in the aroma and taste. After more than a month in the keg, I still have a lot of yeast in suspension that I cannot get to drop. My hope was the S04 would help in that department and it did not. Maybe I need to up that to 50/50? But I'm not sure I'll use it again to try. Other than that, this was my first time doing a step mash. I am very happy with the body and head retention. That bottom picture shows a nice rocky head that sticks around basically the entire glass which I love.

*I apologize for the not so great lighting*

 

[NJGeorge]

Long, long time lurker on this thread. Read all 1871 posts, and learned a ton (sincere thanks to all those that contributed). Stumbled upon here while searching for yeast cultivation and mixing.

Unfortunately I can't say that I've drank a TH beer, so I have zero point of reference in this regards however what I was looking achieve was the "bubblegum" aroma and character that the WB-06 could lend without using so much that it turned into a Hefe and overpowered and otherwise great beer. What I ended up going with was 75% S-04, with 25% WB-06, co-pitched, creating a starter for each two days before I brewed (I had brewed the identical recipe previously, using only S-04 and it turned out fantastic). I always create a starter, even for the Dry Yeast varieties - I just feel that it creates a superior beer, not to mention jump starts fermentation - typically within 4-6 hours I'll see activity in the airlock. I pitched the yeast at 80, then dropped the temp down to 74 for 3 days, and brought it down to 68 for the rest of the time in the fermenter. This recipe calls for a dry hopping @ 2 days (while fermentation is still active).

The co-pitched beer turned out exactly as hoped. It was 98% true to the original recipe, however with a faint bubblegum aroma, and a more rounded, soft flavor overall (the previous version could come off a bit citrusy, almost like you were drinking juice). No clove or even banana to speak of - although bubblegum could be construed as banana to some people. You wouldn't really catch the bubblegum unless you were looking for it, however it's present enough to just make it a much more interesting beer. I was very happy with it and will likely keep using this same mix.

Once again, thanks to all that commented here - this board is truly a wealth of knowledge that I personally drink from quite often.

Cheers!

Josh

Hey all its been a while. @campfire can you elaborate on this recipe? S-o4 and wb-06 and no clove? Starter for each one? How big a starter and how many gallons wort? Hmm might give this a shot.

 

[Jwin]

Yes, I have noticed a lot of increase sediment in the cans of late.

I haven't had any in a while, but some of the Twitter posts look like starters. Maybe a change in process to speed things up/pay the bills... IDK, pure speculation.

 

[couchsending]

Buddy sent me some cans last week. Got some Haze, J, Bbbbbright, Dopp, AE, and a few Abstractions.

Drinking my last Haze right now (10/2) and the first 10oz or so pour had this beautiful glowing orange color. Super light on the palette but a little muted. Had a few drinks then poured the rest of the can in the glass and boom, piles of sediment. Went from glowing to opaque. I must say the aroma and mouthfeel definitely jumped up a notch but sadly so did the astringency.

Next time you pour one give it some serious head (and stare in awe at it’s staying power) but taste the foam. To me you can taste the Hefe yeast in the foam.

 

[NJGeorge]

Has anyone tried Sloop juice bomb yet? Something about it reminds me of TH. Could be the malt or hops..

 

[stickyfinger]

Has anyone tried Sloop juice bomb yet? Something about it reminds me of TH. Could be the malt or hops..

they are near me. fantastic beer. some friends and i did a tasteoff with julius and juice bomb and we all preferred juice bomb. they (Sloop) have lots of other delicious IPAs too

 

[NJGeorge]

they are near me. fantastic beer. some friends and i did a tasteoff with julius and juice bomb and we all preferred juice bomb. they (Sloop) have lots of other delicious IPAs too

Wonder what malt and hops they use. Also fwiw, I had a can I bought in the city and it had dyacital.

 

[stickyfinger]

Wonder what malt and hops they use. Also fwiw, I had a can I bought in the city and it had dyacital.

I've heard Juice Bomb uses citra and mosaic. The malt is pretty simple it seems, just a delivery mechanism for hops!

I also had one at their new brewery that I think had a touch of diacetyl coming on.

 

[cmain]

I have only read about half of the thread and know this was quickly mentioned at some point, but have people experimented with use of yeast nutrients? Specifically something like White Labs Servomyces, which is discussed by Scott Janish in relation to esters here:

A relatively recent paper looked at the role of two yeast supplements (zinc sulphate (ZnS04) and the amino acid L-leucine) and tested their effects on ester production in beers fermented with the Safale S-04 yeast strain. For reference, Servomyces is a commonly available yeast nutrient that contains zinc and L-leucine is an α-amino acid (α-amino acids are commonly found in commercial yeast nutrients like WLN1000 from White Labs). I reached out to White Labs to find out the exact contents of their yeast nutrient but wasn’t able to get an answer. The paper found that the ester compounds producing during fermentation were greatly increased with the addition of ZnS04 and L-leucine. Specifically, 0.12 g/l of ZnS04 resulted in a 27% increase in acetate esters and 123% increase in total ethyl esters compared to unsupplemented sample. The addition of 0.750 g/l of L-leucine resulted in a 41% increase in total acetate ester concentration and 84% increase in total ethyl ester concentration compared to unsupplemented sample

I've always thought it interesting that Nate's Hoppy Thing recipe calls out a Yeast Nutrient at 10 minutes left in the boil, just like you would use Servomyces.

 

[TBryerton]

Has anyone tried Sloop juice bomb yet? Something about it reminds me of TH. Could be the malt or hops..

I've had quite a few IPAs from both Sloop and TH. Sloop has been pretty good as of late, but there's a huge gap between them and TH.

 

[leesmith]

...
Dry Hop with 4oz Galaxy, 5oz Nelson

Rest for 5 days between 60 and 62

Crash to 40 for two days (under pressure)

Transfer to keg and lager at 32 for 7 days

Transfer to 2nd keg and Krausen with a Southern Hemisphere Pale Ale fermentation at 1.040.

Leave for a week then slowly cool to serving.
....

Is there any reason to think that dry hopping and carbonating at the same time could achieve the same results? Not really to save time or anything....more to help with o2 ingress?

And then transfer over to serving keg once crashed and conditioned?

 

[The_Dirty_Spring]

My latest effort (loosely based on Trinity recipe) used 93% S04 / 4% T58 / 3% WB06. Fermented at 72F day one then down to 65F for 5 days, gentle rise to 70F before crashing around day 10. DH #1 (7.5 oz Citra-Simcoe-Bravo) on day 2 and DH #2 (4 oz) on day 4 with addition of CBC-1 and dextrose to nat carb in keg. Early samples seemed close (rich, full, tropical, malt clinging to palate), but then seemed to dry out and gain phenolics over next week. Crashed around day 10. Now at day 17, slight phenols persist, which strike me as mostly T58-driven. Despite large DH, the esters overwhelm the hops. Next batch I’ll likely change ratios, bringing WB06 up and T58 down, somewhere around 93 / 2 / 5%. I’m tempted to cut the T58 altogether, as I get far more hef than Belgian in TH beers. Has anyone dropped either T58 or WB06 from primary ferm?.... other ideas?.... progress??? Thanks everyone!

 

[elgee]

I was at TH yesterday and saw them finishing up a brew. Only saw two huge Mylar hop bags. I looked everywhere but couldn’t see any yeast, must be behind lock and key. Saw Nate walking around all confused, I should have just tried to ask him what they use.

 

[martianpc]

I was at TH yesterday and saw them finishing up a brew. Only saw two huge Mylar hop bags. I looked everywhere but couldn’t see any yeast, must be behind lock and key. Saw Nate walking around all confused, I should have just tried to ask him what they use.

They have a custom yeast stain at this point.

 

[JohnK93]

Hello all,

I apologize if this has been answered (I'm sure it has) but I have a long way to go in reading through this great thread. I harvested the yeast from a can of Green and it grew nicely, but I wanted to ask what the results has been with using harvested Tree House yeast. From what I gather so far, they're using a blend of yeasts, and I'm guessing the ratios won't be right with harvested yeast.

Before I waste a batch, is it worth while to use this harvested yeast? I'm continuing to read this thread, but if someone can point me to a post that addresses this, I'd be very appreciative.

Happy New Year!

Thanks,
John

 

[isomerization]

Hello all,

I apologize if this has been answered (I'm sure it has) but I have a long way to go in reading through this great thread. I harvested the yeast from a can of Green and it grew nicely, but I wanted to ask what the results has been with using harvested Tree House yeast. From what I gather so far, they're using a blend of yeasts, and I'm guessing the ratios won't be right with harvested yeast.

Before I waste a batch, is it worth while to use this harvested yeast? I'm continuing to read this thread, but if someone can point me to a post that addresses this, I'd be very appreciative.

Happy New Year!

Thanks,
John

I can’t tell you for sure what will happen, especially if TH is using new yeast (vague post above stated that but there was no follow up, so?), but if your can of Green is the same as what I worked with and you don’t want to risk a lost batch, I wouldn’t use it.

My recommendation against is based upon the likely presence of CBC-1/F2 a bottle conditioning strain that seemed to inhibit growth of the primary yeast (likely S-04), leaving something very phenolic and Belgian. You can find multiple posts on the internet with similar outcomes.

It’s just beer though, so I’d still try if you’re interested and post the results here!

 

[JohnK93]

I can’t tell you for sure what will happen, especially if TH is using new yeast (vague post above stated that but there was no follow up, so?), but if your can of Green is the same as what I worked with and you don’t want to risk a lost batch, I wouldn’t use it.

My recommendation against is based upon the likely presence of CBC-1/F2 a bottle conditioning strain that seemed to inhibit growth of the primary yeast (likely S-04), leaving something very phenolic and Belgian. You can find multiple posts on the internet with similar outcomes.

It’s just beer though, so I’d still try if you’re interested and post the results here!

Thanks for the quick reply, and I'll look for the posts you mentioned. I don't brew often enough (or have enough money!) to risk losing a batch if the results likely won't be great. However, maybe I can brew an extra gallon to ferment with the TH yeast. If I do, I'll post back with the results.

Thanks again,
John

 

[couchsending]

They have a custom yeast stain at this point.

This is speculation or actual knowledge.

I highly doubt that’s the case. A custom blend from Fermentis I could maybe see. I have no idea how you could modify a yeast to replicate what 3-4 yeasts bring to the table. But maybe. Doubt they’re using GMO yeast.

 

[StinkyBeer]

After drinking a fair few Treehouse beers recently I’m no longer convinced of this yeast blend. Reasons are that:

1, I can pick S-04 tartness and doughy quality a mile off. Treehouse beers have a ph around 4.6 and very little dough/tart character.

2, T-58 dominates the hops even at 3-5% rates.

3, WB-06 is Diastaticus and is a super attenuators easily hitting 85% AA. Treehouse beers seem to finish around 1.015-1.018. Wb-06 also adds a tartness.

Interestingly a guy in this thread seems very confident they use Conan:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...emperature-range-and-profile-question.645681/

Hmmmmmm

 

[couchsending]

I would put more faith in them adding the other yeasts toward the end of fermentation vs. them using Conan. Those other yeasts could literally just be there for biotransformation purposes. We know they do a “biotransformation” dry hop and they only do one dry hop charge for most beers.

Interestingly we also know now that S04 is not the dry version of 1098 or 007. However it’s DNA is very close to WLP006 and WLP013.

Remember how White Labs Vermont Ale yeast looked exactly like Wyeast 1968? Maybe S04 looks a lot like 006 or 013???

 

[StinkyBeer]

Interesting. How about wb-06? That will just keep munching and munching and munching...

It all sounds really very complex.

Does anyone remember when Julius was a pretty clear beer? Then one day...suddenly it was basically opaque!

 

[StinkyBeer]

How do we know they do a bio transformation dry hop charge? Also that they only do one dry hop?

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

I also think that one or more of the yeast strains are in there to obscure their real strain. And I'm not trying to be cynical. I just think it's the only way to protect your intellectual property if you're a brewery that doesn't filter your product.

I picked up some Julius, Haze, Curiosity 56 and I Have Promises to Keep last Friday at the brewery. All four of those remind me of isoamyl acetate in both aroma and flavor. I perceived the character as quite strong. That may point to something like WB-06, but all those beers also had a sugary, candylike sweetness to them that the high attenuation of WB-06 does not leave. When I did my 100% WB-06 batch last year, I noted a very similar smell from the airlock as the ester smell from the beers I just picked up.

Thinking back, we assumed that the WB-06-like strain was WB-06 because the ladder was similar and it's a Fermentis strain. Is it possible the strain was actually a different, less attenuative and/or POF-negative strain that generates a similar ester character?

 

[StinkyBeer]

Yeah agreed. WB-06 ladder looks a doubtful match IMO. Any other dry wit strains out there?

 

[couchsending]

How do we know they do a bio transformation dry hop charge? Also that they only do one dry hop?

Nate has said all their beers are only dry hopped once.

In the description of Bright they talk about how they “forgo” the biotransformation dry hopping.

 

[couchsending]

Based on the genome study WB-06 is most likely the dry version of Wyeast 1388, Belgian Strong. It falls into the “mosaic” beer category.

If you add the diastaticus yeast toward the end of fermentation and then add the CBC-1 does that stop the diastatecus strain? I can’t remember if that’s been discussed.

I do still have the isolates but I highly doubt there’s any viable yeast left. Might try to grow some up to see.