Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

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TheHairyHop

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"... beers were brewed with Simcoe, Citra, and Mosaic in the whirlpool and tested for final concentrations of the various isobutryic esters across multiple yeast strains and found that SafAle S33 and SafAle K97 retained the highest concentrations (US-05 had the lowest levels) of isobutryic esters..."
 

Northern_Brewer

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"... beers were brewed with Simcoe, Citra, and Mosaic in the whirlpool and tested for final concentrations of the various isobutryic esters across multiple yeast strains and found that SafAle S33 and SafAle K97 retained the highest concentrations (US-05 had the lowest levels) of isobutryic esters..."
And the very next line says " None of the yeast strains appeared to produce beers with 2MIB above its threshold." so it's kinda moot. The whole isobutryic story is complicated, it may be relevant for a very small handful of hops like Southern Cross which are capable of getting over the threshold, he explored it a bit in this article.

He also goes on to say that the reason why using some yeast leads to lower 2MIB is because they are biotransforming it into other compounds, which may be more interesting (qv T-58 which seems quite active in that regard when it comes to terpenols).
 

TheHairyHop

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And the very next line says " None of the yeast strains appeared to produce beers with 2MIB above its threshold." so it's kinda moot. The whole isobutryic story is complicated, it may be relevant for a very small handful of hops like Southern Cross which are capable of getting over the threshold, he explored it a bit in this article.

He also goes on to say that the reason why using some yeast leads to lower 2MIB is because they are biotransforming it into other compounds, which may be more interesting (qv T-58 which seems quite active in that regard when it comes to terpenols).
The paper hopped at a rate 9 times less than what the brewery does. I wouldn't call that a moot situation. That's nearly an order of magnitude less. Additionally, there are often synergistic effects where near threshold levels of compounds can increase the perception of each
 

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brewpharm Hill

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Kegged my attempt tonight. I can’t taste any clove so far. I primed it with 2gm CBC1 and some table sugar to get 2.4 volumes of CO2 via BrewFather’s calculations.

The first sips it was cold was definitely reminiscent of TH so I’m excited to test the carbonated and conditioned product. Not confirming or denying this is what TH uses or that it’s a TH like beer yet. Just saying I think it’s heading in the right direction. More to come.
 

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Kegged my attempt tonight. I can’t taste any clove so far. I primed it with 2gm CBC1 and some table sugar to get 2.4 volumes of CO2 via BrewFather’s calculations.

The first sips it was cold was definitely reminiscent of TH so I’m excited to test the carbonated and conditioned product. Not confirming or denying this is what TH uses or that it’s a TH like beer yet. Just saying I think it’s heading in the right direction. More to come.
How long are you planning to condition it and at what temps?
 

brewpharm Hill

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Sorry for such terrible grammar on that last post :oops: I’m just leaving it at room temp which is about 68-70 degrees I’ll leave it there for 5-7 days then place it in the kegerator to cold condition. Given how warm my apartment gets I may even carb it for less time - I don’t have a great way of sampling it unfortunately.
After it’s chilled in the kegerator for 48 hours I’ll start sampling to get an idea for a sweet spot for cold conditioning in the future.
 

beervoid

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Sorry for such terrible grammar on that last post :oops: I’m just leaving it at room temp which is about 68-70 degrees I’ll leave it there for 5-7 days then place it in the kegerator to cold condition. Given how warm my apartment gets I may even carb it for less time - I don’t have a great way of sampling it unfortunately.
After it’s chilled in the kegerator for 48 hours I’ll start sampling to get an idea for a sweet spot for cold conditioning in the future.
So you cold crash to transfer of the hops and then add yeast and sugar and let it warm back up?
 

brewpharm Hill

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So you cold crash to transfer of the hops and then add yeast and sugar and let it warm back up?

Yup. I only crash to about 42 and then let it warm up at room temp as I sanitize and purge my kegs and lines. I do the cold crash to drop out any hops and some of the yeast that may still be in suspension. I want to condition and a hop/relatively yeast free solution.
 

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Given how warm my apartment gets I may even carb it for less time - I don’t have a great way of sampling it unfortunately.
Hey man you can just hook up a small picnic tap to the keg and co2 tank. It will be foamy but at least you can sample and even take gravity readings. I do it al the time.
 

brewpharm Hill

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Hey man you can just hook up a small picnic tap to the keg and co2 tank. It will be foamy but at least you can sample and even take gravity readings. I do it al the time.
I know I need to get one to set up.


Had my first pour last night. Its damn good. Still needs some time to develop in the keg at cold temps, but its nice. It was super hot in my apartment when it was carbing up which I think effected the flavor a little, the hydrometer sample at kegging tasted more tree housey. Still close though! Going to need more experimenting.
 

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I know I need to get one to set up.


Had my first pour last night. Its damn good. Still needs some time to develop in the keg at cold temps, but its nice. It was super hot in my apartment when it was carbing up which I think effected the flavor a little, the hydrometer sample at kegging tasted more tree housey. Still close though! Going to need more experimenting.
Experimenting is a rough life eh? Lol. What yeast did you use again? Tried following earlier in thread and did you just use SO4?
 

brewpharm Hill

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Experimenting is a rough life eh? Lol. What yeast did you use again? Tried following earlier in thread and did you just use SO4?

Haha the adventures of homebrewing. I used S04, T58, WB06 (92%/5%/3%). Fermented at 71-72 for the first 24 then dropped to 63 for the remainder. This is the first attempt I've had with this yeast that is actually good and doesn't come out like a belgian or hefe - I'm attributing this to a proper scale. The aroma is more TH like than the flavor at this point.
 

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Yup. I only crash to about 42 and then let it warm up at room temp as I sanitize and purge my kegs and lines. I do the cold crash to drop out any hops and some of the yeast that may still be in suspension. I want to condition and a hop/relatively yeast free solution.
Have you or anyone here tried dry hopping just before end of fermentation and spund up to 30psi (depending on dry hop temp) or so to naturally carbonate?
It seems the most logical way to do it to keep DO low as it wont be neccesary to open the keg to add yeast and priming sugar.
Primary concern I have is that the high pressure might interfere with diacetyl cleanup and be detrimental to the yeast health.
 

NJGeorge

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Have you or anyone here tried dry hopping just before end of fermentation and spund up to 30psi (depending on dry hop temp) or so to naturally carbonate?
It seems the most logical way to do it to keep DO low as it wont be neccesary to open the keg to add yeast and priming sugar.
Primary concern I have is that the high pressure might interfere with diacetyl cleanup and be detrimental to the yeast health.
I've done it a bunch of times with the spike conical. Works well. Dry hop creep also adds to the carbonation. Haven't had any diacetyl problems when you don't rush it.
 

beervoid

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I've done it a bunch of times with the spike conical. Works well. Dry hop creep also adds to the carbonation. Haven't had any diacetyl problems when you don't rush it.
Allright, what do you consider rushing? how many days do you typically let it go at what temps till crashing?
 

NJGeorge

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What would he be testing? “Conan” or “VT Ale” was tested by @isomerization and you can see where it sits genetically on the @suregork ’s site. It’s not found in any Tree a House beers.
I haven't checked out suregorks site yet. Just to double check and there is the dry version now. There has been some talk on reddit where people have had great results using conan and then adding s04 prior to dry hop to finish it up. I remember reading a while back on one of the forums someone from the "know" said TH basically uses conan. Who knows tho lol we'll probably never know for sure.
 

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Allright, what do you consider rushing? how many days do you typically let it go at what temps till crashing?
Dry hopping for a day or two at tail end of fermentation is rushing it. I dump yeast at the tail end of fermentation as long as most of it has flocced. Dry hop for around 4-5 days at around 60-70 then crash and dump hops. Let things settle for another day at room temp (dump more hops) and then keg. As long as you can keep that pressure build up it fill work. I don't have a great way of cooling with the conical (no glycol) so I've been using an old big kettle with ice and cold water to pump through the cooling coils. You can dry hop for a day or two but the beer needs to be finished and cool, also re-circulation helps. I believe @couchsending has luck with cooler temps and shorter time.
 

NJGeorge

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We were discussing and doing this wayyy earlier in the thread. Can also be done in a keg with the clear beer system.
 

beervoid

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Dry hopping for a day or two at tail end of fermentation is rushing it. I dump yeast at the tail end of fermentation as long as most of it has flocced. Dry hop for around 4-5 days at around 60-70 then crash and dump hops. Let things settle for another day at room temp (dump more hops) and then keg. As long as you can keep that pressure build up it fill work. I don't have a great way of cooling with the conical (no glycol) so I've been using an old big kettle with ice and cold water to pump through the cooling coils. You can dry hop for a day or two but the beer needs to be finished and cool, also re-circulation helps. I believe @couchsending has luck with cooler temps and shorter time.
Thanks for elaborating.
What kind of psi are you aiming/building up for and do you aim to get full carbonation from spunding?
 

couchsending

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Have you or anyone here tried dry hopping just before end of fermentation and spund up to 30psi (depending on dry hop temp) or so to naturally carbonate?
It seems the most logical way to do it to keep DO low as it wont be neccesary to open the keg to add yeast and priming sugar.
Primary concern I have is that the high pressure might interfere with diacetyl cleanup and be detrimental to the yeast health.
For me it has never resulted in a really expressive hoppy beer. Yes you maybe prevent o2 pickup but the issue is so much yeast in suspension dragging down hop oils. Beers made this way are just never as punchy as the ones made when hops are added after fermentation and yeast has been removed/flocced. A really highly flocculent yeast would maybe help as there would be a lot less in suspension for the last bit of fermentation?

I’ve seen some info lately from quite a few of best brewers of hoppy beer in the west in regards to the “hop stink” that a lot of modern hoppy beers have. The “rotting” or “overripe” fruit character that can be really vegetal as well. Some people say “pumpkin guts”. Just had an Equilibrium DIPA that was straight rotting melon that was disgusting.

Lot of breweries encountering it and word is still out on why it’s happening. High quantities of hops in contact with yeast at higher temps for extended periods of time especially when hop creep comes into play. Brewers are starting to not cap tanks during dry hopping when hop creep is encountered.

Pressure + warm temps + hop creep induced fermentation can potentially lead to some pretty bad off flavors/aromas and not just diacetyl. I think it’s so synonymous with “modern” hazy beer that people don’t even realize what it is.
 

beervoid

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For me it has never resulted in a really expressive hoppy beer. Yes you maybe prevent o2 pickup but the issue is so much yeast in suspension dragging down hop oils. Beers made this way are just never as punchy as the ones made when hops are added after fermentation and yeast has been removed/flocced. A really highly flocculent yeast would maybe help as there would be a lot less in suspension for the last bit of fermentation?

I’ve seen some info lately from quite a few of best brewers of hoppy beer in the west in regards to the “hop stink” that a lot of modern hoppy beers have. The “rotting” or “overripe” fruit character that can be really vegetal as well. Some people say “pumpkin guts”. Just had an Equilibrium DIPA that was straight rotting melon that was disgusting.

Lot of breweries encountering it and word is still out on why it’s happening. High quantities of hops in contact with yeast at higher temps for extended periods of time especially when hop creep comes into play. Brewers are starting to not cap tanks during dry hopping when hop creep is encountered.

Pressure + warm temps + hop creep induced fermentation can potentially lead to some pretty bad off flavors/aromas and not just diacetyl. I think it’s so synonymous with “modern” hazy beer that people don’t even realize what it is.
I think I know exactly what you mean. I've been picking this up in many neipa's from Europe even the ones considered top (Cloudwater, Verdant) and the triple fractal koru from Equilibrium as well.
My gut feeling is indeed its a matter of high hopping rates plus long high temp contact.
I dry hopped a kveik ipa at 30c one time with 12oz of mosaic and it had this very unpleasant rotten fruit character, similar to what you described.
Have you ever encountered this flavor in your beers?
 

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I think I know exactly what you mean. I've been picking this up in many neipa's from Europe even the ones considered top (Cloudwater, Verdant) and the triple fractal koru from Equilibrium as well.
My gut feeling is indeed its a matter of high hopping rates plus long high temp contact.
I dry hopped a kveik ipa at 30c one time with 12oz of mosaic and it had this very unpleasant rotten fruit character, similar to what you described.
Have you ever encountered this flavor in your beers?
I never experienced it in my beer to the extent I’ve experienced it in commercial beer. I think there’s a couple reasons for that but they’re just guesses honestly. I think pressure has something to do with it and certain yeast strains and certain environments created by lots of hops, elevated temps, and stressed yeast.

I’ve never experienced it when dry hopping colder after yeast has been removed and minimal head pressure on the vessel. (2ish psi)
 

beervoid

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I never experienced it in my beer to the extent I’ve experienced it in commercial beer. I think there’s a couple reasons for that but they’re just guesses honestly. I think pressure has something to do with it and certain yeast strains and certain environments created by lots of hops, elevated temps, and stressed yeast.

I’ve never experienced it when dry hopping colder after yeast has been removed and minimal head pressure on the vessel. (2ish psi)
Makes sense, the bigger commercial tanks have a lot of hydrostatic pressure already acting on the yeast.
 

Clyde McCoy

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I've screened 22 colonies now and everything is T-58-like. If there's any S-04 or WB-06 in Very Green, I haven't found it. @isomerization did you see anything like this kind of T-58 frequency in any of the beers you tested?

Screen Shot 2020-07-13 at 8.05.15 PM.png


Screen Shot 2020-07-13 at 8.05.22 PM.png


Screen Shot 2020-07-13 at 8.05.29 PM.png
 

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For me it has never resulted in a really expressive hoppy beer. Yes you maybe prevent o2 pickup but the issue is so much yeast in suspension dragging down hop oils. Beers made this way are just never as punchy as the ones made when hops are added after fermentation and yeast has been removed/flocced. A really highly flocculent yeast would maybe help as there would be a lot less in suspension for the last bit of fermentation?

I’ve seen some info lately from quite a few of best brewers of hoppy beer in the west in regards to the “hop stink” that a lot of modern hoppy beers have. The “rotting” or “overripe” fruit character that can be really vegetal as well. Some people say “pumpkin guts”. Just had an Equilibrium DIPA that was straight rotting melon that was disgusting.

Lot of breweries encountering it and word is still out on why it’s happening. High quantities of hops in contact with yeast at higher temps for extended periods of time especially when hop creep comes into play. Brewers are starting to not cap tanks during dry hopping when hop creep is encountered.

Pressure + warm temps + hop creep induced fermentation can potentially lead to some pretty bad off flavors/aromas and not just diacetyl. I think it’s so synonymous with “modern” hazy beer that people don’t even realize what it is.
1318+warm dry hop=. sickly sweet beer
 

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It seems the most logical way to do it to keep DO low as it wont be neccesary to open the keg to add yeast and priming sugar.
you don’t open the ferm or the keg. you shoot them into the vessel. Just get a carbonator cap and small (6-8oz) soda bottle, two liquid QDs, piece of tubing to connect the qds.
 

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Tree House Very Green

Canned: October 2019
Analyzed: July 2020

Not my finest gel...

View attachment 689081

It seems quite likely that Fermentis SafAle T-58 or something very genetically similar is in Very Green.
You’re testing 9 month old beer? Could it be the only thing still living is T-58? Did someone just happen to have a 9 month old Very Green sitting in their fridge that they sent you?

I’d be a bit more interested to see ever you find in a 9 day old beer.
 

Clyde McCoy

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You’re testing 9 month old beer? Could it be the only thing still living is T-58? Did someone just happen to have a 9 month old Very Green sitting in their fridge that they sent you?

I’d be a bit more interested to see ever you find in a 9 day old beer.
Yes. It's possible, but I don't have a biological explanation for why that would be, maybe @suregork can comment. Yes.

There are June 2020 cans that I will check next.
 
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isomerization

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I've screened 22 colonies now and everything is T-58-like. If there's any S-04 or WB-06 in Very Green, I haven't found it. @isomerization did you see anything like this kind of T-58 frequency in any of the beers you tested?

View attachment 689361

View attachment 689362

View attachment 689363
No, I saw predominantly (what we’re calling) S-04 and if I cultured the dregs, then CBC-1 would be majority.

If you’re seeing this effect in multiple cans then it could be real. You are streak plating the dregs, correct?
 

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Yes. It's possible, but I don't have a biological explanation for why that would be, maybe @suregork can comment. Yes.

There are June 2020 cans that I will check next.
I have some fresh TH and would be happy to send you a can or two to contribute to this experiment if it would be helpful.
 

Clyde McCoy

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No, I saw predominantly (what we’re calling) S-04 and if I cultured the dregs, then CBC-1 would be majority.

If you’re seeing this effect in multiple cans then it could be real. You are streak plating the dregs, correct?
That's right - decant, centrifuge, resuspend in PBS, serial dilute on YPD plates. Screening colonies from several plates.

I have so far only tested this 9-month-old can of Very Green.
 

Clyde McCoy

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I have some fresh TH and would be happy to send you a can or two to contribute to this experiment if it would be helpful.
For all beer/yeast please PM me, I don't always check this thread.

Recent Green/Very Green would be helpful to compare with.
 
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