Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

[isomerization]

In theory maybe? It didn't for me. I got a tiny bit of spice in transfer before carbing, but none carried through.
I fermented t-58 alone without hops as a test before I brewed. It tastes nothing like wb-06 at all to me and had spicy character fermented warm.
I'm not saying do as I do. I'm just saying that's how I'll do it for now. I didn't like the flavor of t-58 warm.


Which is what I planned for. I mashed at 157 so my beer would stop at 1.016 - that's what it did.
@ruckusz28 mashed at normal IPA temps and his went down to like 1.009 or something. So I went off his advice and mashed higher.

I was on the fence about the staggered additions, but it sounds like you had great results. I'm going to try the same setup but go with 100 ml each of WB-06 and T-58 at 75F for a day before dropping to 60F and pitching 500 ml of S-04. Definitely mashing around 156-158F. On the fence about natural caring with CBC-1, will have to decide at some point though lol.

 

[TheHairyHop]

I'm going to follow marshallb's approach, but co-pitch T-58 and CBC-1 together with some leftover wort and a **** ton of hops. I'll let that mixture sit for 24 hours and then closed transfer to serving vessel. I want the amount of wort to be that needed for natural carbonation.

My caveats are:

1) I'm thinking if you want to save esters, both WB and T-58 should be pitched when the beer will no longer be outgassed

2) Calculating the wort necessary isn't straightforward. There is dead space in the fermenter and then the transfer to accomplish

3) I kind of just want to stick with what was working for me

 

[melville]

1. What is an under pitch with Fermentis, i.e. what percentage below their recommended range would qualify as an under pitch? I've seen some discussion that even the recommended range is an over pitch.

2. Does under pitching actually increase esters. (Seriously — there's arguments for and against this)


3. Most agree that higher temps equals more ester. Higher pitch temps may lead to more glycerol (body). TH doesn't appear to be using temps over 70 based on what we know. Of course we've no idea what their pitch temp is.

4. Growth (ester) phase is over pretty fast more so with these dry yeast. These last two beers are approaching high krausen by 48 hours.

 

[HopVision]

Found this in an article online about Treehouse.
Although Lanier says that freshness is the key, Rohan says it’s Lanier’s attention to detail, which is unmatched. “What he does better than anyone is pay attention to details,” says Rohan. “We were brewing a beer once, and we were having trouble getting the heat where we wanted it, so I was working on it. I got it to 158°F and told Nate, ‘It’s ready, let’s mash in.’ He said, ‘No, it has to be 167°F.’ He wouldn’t budge. I said, ‘We’ll have to wait another 25 minutes,’ and he said, ‘Then we’ll wait.’ I needled him about it for weeks after, and then it hit me. Things like that are why we don’t have problems in the brewery and why the beers come out the way they do.”

I'm confused as to why he wanted to mash in at 167... that seems quite high? Or is that just his pre grain temp, so it would be more like 157ish once added...

 

[isomerization]

I'm confused as to why he wanted to mash in at 167... that seems quite high?

We don't know their water:grain ratio but that temp is likely the strike temp and not mash temp.

 

[Sbe2]

Going back to naturally carbonating a keg, how do you do it with a closed transfer?

My thoughts were to add cbc-1 or T-58 to the primary a few hours before doing a closed transfer to the keg.

Sorry if this has already been covered.

 

[melville]

Going back to naturally carbonating a keg, how do you do it with a closed transfer?

My thoughts were to add cbc-1 or T-58 to the primary a few hours before doing a closed transfer to the keg.

Sorry if this has already been covered.

I pushed sanitizer out of the keg. Quickly threw in the hops, sugar, and yeast. Closed and purged a number of times. Then close transferred.

 

[Cainmos]

I'm confused as to why he wanted to mash in at 167... that seems quite high? Or is that just his pre grain temp, so it would be more like 157ish once added...

We don't know their water:grain ratio but that temp is likely the strike temp and not mash temp.

Isomerization is correct it's referring to strike temp. He says "it's ready let's mash in."

 

[Sbe2]

I pushed sanitizer out of the keg. Quickly threw in the hops, sugar, and yeast. Closed and purged a number of times. Then close transferred.

Do you have a screen on your dip tube or do you bag your hops?

 

[melville]

Do you have a screen on your dip tube or do you bag your hops?

Screen over the tube.

 

[WBCo]

Is anyone that is spunding or keg conditioning with CBC-1 measuring how much yeast they are adding to the keg?

I'd like to try keg hopping and conditioning with one of my house IPAs that I'm brewing today to see how it differs from my usual method of burst carbing. I just doubt that I need A LOT of yeast to consume 2.5 oz of sugar, or whatever it ends up being, for carbonation purposes.

 

[isomerization]

Is anyone that is spunding or keg conditioning with CBC-1 measuring how much yeast they are adding to the keg?

I'd like to try keg hopping and conditioning with one of my house IPAs that I'm brewing today to see how it differs from my usual method of burst carbing. I just doubt that I need A LOT of yeast to consume 2.5 oz of sugar, or whatever it ends up being, for carbonation purposes.

Update your blog bro!

I would imagine 2 g of dry yeast should be sufficient with CBC-1. I prefer using liquid cultures and will prob use 50 ml of saturated culture on my batch, brew day tomorrow!

 

[couchsending]

Yeah I believe 2-2.5g per 5 gallon keg is the recommended dosage.

 

[WBCo]

Update your blog bro!

I would imagine 2 g of dry yeast should be sufficient with CBC-1. I prefer using liquid cultures and will prob use 50 ml of saturated culture on my batch, brew day tomorrow!

I know man, I upgraded a lot of equipment which led to me not brewing for a couple months. I have been brewing regularly again, just not blogging.

This beer is a good reason to get it going again!

But thanks for the recommendation. Guess I'll go with 2 grams dry.

 

[isomerization]

Brew day went well this afternoon. OG clocking in at 1.062 (6.1 gallon in the fermenter, 10 lb. GP, 3 lb. flaked oats, 0.25 lb honey malt, 0.25 lb crystal 60). Water = 215/80 favoring Cl with mash pH = 5.25 and temp was at 157F.

I pitched 100 ml starters of WB-06 and T-58 isolates and holding at 74F until after work tomorrow.

 

[drelickj]

Just pulled a sample from my batch at about 1 week of fermentation. I pitched 15% WB-06 for 24 hours (had zero activity) then pitched the remaining 85% of S-04. I'm tasting a decent amount of banana but no bubblegum. I am also hoping that with continued fermentation, dry hop, and carb that the non-IPA flavor will subside a bit. I know someone had mentioned something similar happening (although I can't find it now) so I am hoping for the best.

 

[WBCo]

Anybody have a 'best' temp for esters from S-04?

Long story short I pitched Conan in my house IPA Saturday. Brand new unopened GigaYeast from MoreBeer and no change in gravity 24 hours post pitch. So considering I've been following this thread and planned on keg conditioning with CBC-1 anyway, I decided to pitch a packet of S-04 to save my beer. Definitely won't be the same without the ester contribution from Conan, but I don't think it'll be terrible.

 

[couchsending]

A little tip on Conan... just did a recent batch where I fermented it like Kimmich recommends in Mitch Steele's IPA book. Underpitched by about 30%, left at 68 for three days then bumped to 72 to finish. Got more peach this time than any other time I've used a supposed "Conan" yeast from One of the smaller yeast banks. I think the underpitch and warmer temps are key. Went from 1.061 to 1.012 even with the underpitch (150 mash). I did do a small "vitality" starter with it for 4 hours on a stir plate before I pitched it.

 

[WBCo]

Yea I use Conan probably more than any other yeast, with 1318 as a very close second. I usually pitch as close to 0.44 mil cells/ml/degree Plato as I can get with online calculators. This is my first time ever having an issue with it, although I usually don't use Giga Yeast. It was just what I could get shipped to me the quickest this time.

 

[Dog House Brew]

I've had trouble with Giga on their first generation. I've used a few different yeast by them and either not take off, or ferment out. The second generation on rocks.

 

[isomerization]

Brief brew update: fermentation with T-58 and WB-06 was kicking off after 24 hr at 74F. Dropped temp to 62F and pitched S-04 (last night) not much activity as of this morning (no krausen). Guessing it will take a bit for the S-04 to get its shizz together at this low of a temp. I normally start at 68F and free rise from there, so this is new territory for me hah

 

[melville]

Feedback from Fermentis on several points.
Paraphrasing:

1. Refermentation with T-58 vs F-2 would create a slight difference in profile, F-2 is very neutral and leaves behind basically just the carbonation vs T58 which is more ester/4VG (re:clove) forward. Unlikely that it alters the beer significantly given the amounts used and how small refermentation is. Recommends F-2. Coming hopefully the next few months to homebrewers.

2. Blending Yeasts: everything matters, timing, ratio, temps all will effect flavor contributions. S-04 and T-58 "implant" faster given equal pitch rates, WB-06 can have continued impact later, ferments complex carbs better/more completely. Adjust pitch rates to adjust for implantation of S-04 and T-58, or try pitching first. Have data on WB-06 that when pitched under 50g/hL creates and retains more isoamyl acetate in finished beer (10g/hl creates roughly twice the amount looking at the chart, while also increasing the temp to 24C doubles that increase). Trial and error.

3. Recommended range on the packaging is the rate they know will ferment with consistent times and results. Under pitching or over pitching would be much lower or much higher (see above's 10g/hL for example).

 

[melville]

Feedback from Weyermann on carafoam:

Essentially: Carafoam is used/can be used in similar ways we use oats and wheat (when it comes to haze, body, and percentages in the grist) and still adhere to German purity laws (Reinheitsgebot).

In the beer I brewed this past Friday I used 20% carafoam (3% C40, 77% Rahr 2-row). Looking at it this morning has that same milky/hazy look you'd expect from oats at even higher percentages.

 

[melville]

Update: 5 days in. Gravity 1.016. I mashed at 158 and that seems to have done the trick. I expect that will tick down a tiny bit but should get me close to 1.014-ish. Added second dry hop (galaxy, amarillo, simcoe, columbus). Sample tastes good, no off notes this time. Mostly clean with some fruity esters and very faint wb-06 action in the background — no spice or overly suspicious belgian notes. At this stage would be inclined to increase wb-06 and t-58 again in the next batch. This was 79/15/6 up from 90/7/3. Based on how this goes would probably shoot for 68/22/10-ish next time around.

Edit: forgot to say super hazed right now. 20% carafoam might be too high for someone's visual tastes. Will have to see how things settle out.

 

[TheHairyHop]

If the point would be to capture esters, shouldn't the yeast schedule be S-04 and then T-58 and WB-06 when capping the fermenter?

 

[isomerization]

If the point would be to capture esters, shouldn't the yeast schedule be S-04 and then T-58 and WB-06 when capping the fermenter?

Are we sure that esters are volatized off during fermentation? If so, then how do people end up with banana bombs?

Update: 5 days in. Gravity 1.016. I mashed at 158 and that seems to have done the trick. I expect that will tick down a tiny bit but should get me close to 1.014-ish. Added second dry hop (galaxy, amarillo, simcoe, columbus). Sample tastes good, no off notes this time. Mostly clean with some fruity esters and very faint wb-06 action in the background — no spice or overly suspicious belgian notes. At this stage would be inclined to increase wb-06 and t-58 again in the next batch. This was 79/15/6 up from 90/7/3. Based on how this goes would probably shoot for 68/22/10-ish next time around.

Update from me, day 4: added first round of dry hopping this morning. I have to say this has been a strange fermentation so far. I have had almost no bubbling (using a new blow off setup though) and almost no visible krausen, but gravity was down to 1.030 (from 1.062) when I dry hopped this morning (didn't want to risk missing a good "biotransformation" window by waiting until tonight). I have started ramping the temp from 62F to 70F though, so maybe things will finish off in the next day or two...

 

[melville]

If the point would be to capture esters, shouldn't the yeast schedule be S-04 and then T-58 and WB-06 when capping the fermenter?

By fermentis' logic the S-04 would then be very well implanted — what would there be left for the other two to consume>grow>esters? OTOH — maybe? I still think one could come up with the proper ratio to pitch all at once and get somewhere in the ballpark — assuming we know for sure we have the four and only four suspects.

 

[melville]

I would love to see folks here rough out the timelines they think TH is using based on TH's 18 day grain to can schedule knowing what we know. Thoughts?

 

[Ruckusz28]

Feedback from Weyermann on carafoam:

In the beer I brewed this past Friday I used 20% carafoam (3% C40, 77% Rahr 2-row). Looking at it this morning has that same milky/hazy look you'd expect from oats at even higher percentages.

https://strasserbrewing.wordpress.com/2016/08/26/8-26-16-experimenting-with-carafoam/ In case you're interested, my results when using 18% carafoam last year can be seen at the link above. That was an excellent beer.

 

[melville]

https://strasserbrewing.wordpress.com/2016/08/26/8-26-16-experimenting-with-carafoam/ In case you're interested, my results when using 18% carafoam last year can be seen at the link above. That was an excellent beer.

I vaguely remember reading that at the time, thanks for reminding me. Sounds like a tasty beer — great color too, very orangey for all that pilsner malt.

 

[couchsending]

S-04 is a big part of the equation when it comes to creating that acidic somewhat tangy flavor to make the beer more "juice-like". @marshallB had the right idea I think. WB-06/S-04 underpitch and warm, then drop temps. I still think T-58 is used at the end for natural carbing and maybe some slight texture/mouthfeel and/or ester enhancement.

I'd also like to know from someone who knows big systems what the process would be like from an equipment standpoint? Most ferment tanks are rated for 1bar right? So they'd have to have special tanks if they were doing everything in a Uni... ones built for 30 PSI at least? Is that common? If not, then bung with some gravity left and get to 15 PSI. Then transfer to conditioning tanks that are rated for that PSI where more yeast (and/or sugar/wort) is added (and dry hops round 2 or round 3?). Then they'd be cold crashing in Bright? Seems like there would be the potential for a lot of yeast/hop residue in finished beer if they're pulling off the Bright when canning?? Normal brights are rated for what PSI? Most breweries are transferring already crashed beer so PSI rating doesn't need to be as high correct?

@melville Where did the 18 days come from again? Sorry don't remember...

 

[melville]

@melville Where did the 18 days come from again? Sorry don't remember...

Twitter, something like brewing to canning how many days?: "18-21 days"

 

[marshallb]

Are we sure that esters are volatized off during fermentation? If so, then how do people end up with banana bombs?
.

Fermentis told me they can be blown off with rigorous fermentation. So, if your fermentation was slow or slowed via temp control then you retain your esters.

 

[isomerization]

Fermentis told me they can be blown off with rigorous fermentation. So, if your fermentation was slow or slowed via temp control then you retain your esters.

Well mine should have all the esters retained, slowest fermentation ever for me.

 

[melville]

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1501708787.129107.jpg
Julius four years ago, photo by them. Looks much different now, but keeps some of that orange tone. Doesn't look anything like my two-row and crystal 40. Looking around though at Rahr Pale Ale Malt smash's and looks very similar.

 

[marshallb]

@melville has anyone tried a turbid mash or some version of?
I was thinking about mashing a little lower next time and pulling a gallon or so of wort from my mash tun to denature it on the stove after about 5 minutes in the mash and some really heavy stirring of the grains.

 

[alexmkuyper]

Just wanting to add some more data points to this thread. I recently did an 8 gallon split batch. One fermenter got Fermentis K-97 and the other got S-04, T-58, and WB-06 (86%/7%/7%). The blend was all pitched at the same time and fermented around 65F for 2 days, then ramped to 68 over a few days. Kegged it today after 17 days. Definitely too much influence from T-58 on this one as others have reported. A lot of bubblegum and clove.

Have others been able to reduce the esters of T-58 when added to primary fermentation? I would be curious to know if T-58 is K-sensitive as CBC-1 is K-positive and therefore would cause issues if they were co-pitched for conditioning. I would be curious to hear what blend y'all think is the closest you've gotten so far and how it was pitched.

There are certainly hints of Treehouse-ness in my beer, but just too much belgian influence.

 

[melville]

@melville has anyone tried a turbid mash or some version of?
I was thinking about mashing a little lower next time and pulling a gallon or so of wort from my mash tun to denature it on the stove after about 5 minutes in the mash and some really heavy stirring of the grains.

I'm too scared to a decoction mash, so it's unlikely I'd ever attempt a turbid mash — what's your thinking there, simply the added haze, dextrins, or something else?

 

[melville]

Just wanting to add some more data points to this thread. I recently did an 8 gallon split batch. One fermenter got Fermentis K-97 and the other got S-04, T-58, and WB-06 (86%/7%/7%). The blend was all pitched at the same time and fermented around 65F for 2 days, then ramped to 68 over a few days. Kegged it today after 17 days. Definitely too much influence from T-58 on this one as others have reported. A lot of bubblegum and clove.

Have others been able to reduce the esters of T-58 when added to primary fermentation? I would be curious to know if T-58 is K-sensitive as CBC-1 is K-positive and therefore would cause issues if they were co-pitched for conditioning. I would be curious to hear what blend y'all think is the closest you've gotten so far and how it was pitched.

There are certainly hints of Treehouse-ness in my beer, but just too much belgian influence.

@alexmkuyper I just did 79/15/6 after doing 90/7/3 and it doesn't seem like enough. What I noticed when drinking TH a couple of weekends ago (on tap), was it hit you mostly in the finish, Julius and Green both had this finish that felt more like my attempt at 50/30/20 than 90/7/3.

That said I'm still entirely open to how that happens (all pitched together), fermented with s-04 and then refermented with t-58 and wb-06, none of the above, etc.

 

[evozero]

@alexmkuyper I just did 79/15/6 after doing 90/7/3 and it doesn't seem like enough. What I noticed when drinking TH a couple of weekends ago (on tap), was it hit you mostly in the finish, Julius and Green both had this finish that felt more like my attempt at 50/30/20 than 90/7/3.

That said I'm still entirely open to how that happens (all pitched together), fermented with s-04 and then refermented with t-58 and wb-06, none of the above, etc.

@melville Isn't that the ratio @marshallb was using (50/30/20)?

To understand this better, you get your yeast calculation based on the yeast needed to ferment the wort, you divide that number between the three yeasts in the percentage discussed?

I'm going to brew a NEIPA this weekend and would like to contribute to all this.

Sorry for my bad English, hope my questions are easy to understand.