Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

[couchsending]

And with it supposedly being a “killer” strain do you think the T-58 Wb-06 even did anything?

Although I’m still on the fence about the whole “killer” strain aspect of this yeast. Just based on the fact that just about everyone’s beers that are made with harvested dregs end up with phenolics or spice of some sort which has to mean that the other yeasts are doing something....

 

[JJ900]

Tree House's new brewery is being fined by the town for putting out too many heavy metals into the waste water, lead zinc etc. Anyone have a clue as to what role these all play in the brewing process and does that hint at anything yeast related or secrets to their success?

its on the front page at www.telegram.com

 

[TronJunior]

Nah, I don't think there's really any information to be gained from that- breweries dump so much stuff down the drain. Zinc is an often overlooked nutrient for yeast though.

 

[TheHairyHop]

How much CBC did you use?

70% of the pitch required for 1 L of wort

How long do you carb/condition in keg before chilling down? Lallemand instructs 2 weeks but on my most recent effort 1 week seemed fully carb'd so I threw it in the fridge (last night).

I'm impatient in basically everything that I do. I waited like 4 days. It came out of the tap like a darn firehydrant, so I think it'll be ready to serve in 4 more days

I understand that CBC kills yeast, but I assumed that the others would have some time to start making some flavors before they got beat out. And since the keg will never be opened, I'll get to save more of a percent of the aroma/flavor than if I primary fermented with them. My working motto has been, if you can smell it, it's gone

 

[SanPancho]

Tree House's new brewery is being fined by the town for putting out too many heavy metals into the waste water, lead zinc etc. Anyone have a clue as to what role these all play in the brewing process and does that hint at anything yeast related or secrets to their success?

its on the front page at www.telegram.com

no idea about the metals. that seems crazy. im wondering if it has to do with whatever the prior use of the facility was before they moved into it. other than zinc, none of them should be coming from brewing operations. but i could easily see a constant stream of caustics and acids washing away crud that has been sitting in the waste lines for years. caustic removes the gunk, acid leaches the metals...... rinse and repeat.

the oxygen demand and total solids would seem to indicate that the dry yeast theory is correct. just use fresh stuff, toss the old stuff. wash it all down the drain.

whatever the story with the metals turns out to be, my guess is that they're gonna have to install a settling tank and dispose of the trub/yeast/hop sludge by a non-sewer waste channel. big ol smelly dumpsters most likely, unless they can get some farmers to come and take it away as feed.

 

[TheHairyHop]

Since the brewery was more than likely rushed into existence, I'm guessing that a contractor "accidentally" installed some questionable piping, especially considering the cleaning procedures of a brewery. I don't think there was anything previously existing on that lot. Could be wrong though

 

[Jmash]

Tree House's new brewery is being fined by the town for putting out too many heavy metals into the waste water, lead zinc etc. Anyone have a clue as to what role these all play in the brewing process and does that hint at anything yeast related or secrets to their success?

its on the front page at www.telegram.com

I was just thinking about this. What precautions they have to take as far as waste goes. Not just yeasts.spent grains and hops but cleaner and sanitizer etc.

 

[Jmash]

no idea about the metals. that seems crazy. im wondering if it has to do with whatever the prior use of the facility was before they moved into it. other than zinc, none of them should be coming from brewing operations. but i could easily see a constant stream of caustics and acids washing away crud that has been sitting in the waste lines for years. caustic removes the gunk, acid leaches the metals...... rinse and repeat.

the oxygen demand and total solids would seem to indicate that the dry yeast theory is correct. just use fresh stuff, toss the old stuff. wash it all down the drain.

whatever the story with the metals turns out to be, my guess is that they're gonna have to install a settling tank and dispose of the trub/yeast/hop sludge by a non-sewer waste channel. big ol smelly dumpsters most likely, unless they can get some farmers to come and take it away as feed.

Very possible. Old mill town. You don't know what was dumped there. Like the W.R. Grace lawsuit. I'm sure Grace was liable for much of the contamination in Woburn but there were many tanneries there in the 19th and 20th centuries that poisoned the soil

 

[SanPancho]

I was just thinking about this. What precautions they have to take as far as waste goes. Not just yeasts.spent grains and hops but cleaner and sanitizer etc.

Grains go in the compost bin or regular trash if no compost service. Best case is they go to a farmer. Yeast can go to farm too, although typically its down the drain. Hops are drained, composted or tossed depending on volume of material. Ive been told only goats eat the hops.

Chems depend on your sewer system. Septic required a holding tank to neutralize everything before discharge. Easy when you add an acid to a base. Small town sewer systems typically require the same. And the holding tank is also a settling tank to catch the yeast, hops, trub, etc and reroute to solid waste stream or compost. Again, your chems neutralize each other so final product is relatively benign. Large city systems let it all mingle in the sewer. They mostly care about FOG but thats not an issue with breweries.

Since the brewery was more than likely rushed into existence, I'm guessing that a contractor "accidentally" installed some questionable piping, especially considering the cleaning procedures of a brewery. I don't think there was anything previously existing on that lot. Could be wrong though

Highly doubtful. Any decent brewer gets the best plumber you can find to install the largest drains you can afford or get approved. Once its under the slab you are locked in, anything beyond snaking the drain means you are shut down while repairs get made. Copper and aluminum are too expensive for waste lines, dollars to donuts its cast iron, pvc or abs. (assuming new waste lines). None of which leach these metals.

And the chems neutralize each other for most part. (When you have a holding tank installed). Those chems are food safe so no heavy metals. So unless they are smelting their own cans, stirring the mash tun and kettle with lead paddles, or secretly running a fighting robot tournament at night i just dont see the metals coming from their brewing operations.

Does anybody know what the site was prior to them brewing there? The metals is what throws me, its just so out of character for a brewery i have to think its industrial contamination or maybe bad sampling.

 

[NJGeorge]

Pitched 87% s04, 5% wb04 and 8% t58 Friday night. Under pitched slightly as I spilt some of the rehydrated yeast 🙄

 

[TheHairyHop]

Highly doubtful. Any decent brewer gets the best plumber you can find to install the largest drains you can afford or get approved. Once its under the slab you are locked in, anything beyond snaking the drain means you are shut down while repairs get made. Copper and aluminum are too expensive for waste lines, dollars to donuts its cast iron, pvc or abs. (assuming new waste lines). None of which leach these metals.

And the chems neutralize each other for most part. (When you have a holding tank installed). Those chems are food safe so no heavy metals. So unless they are smelting their own cans, stirring the mash tun and kettle with lead paddles, or secretly running a fighting robot tournament at night i just dont see the metals coming from their brewing operations.

Does anybody know what the site was prior to them brewing there? The metals is what throws me, its just so out of character for a brewery i have to think its industrial contamination or maybe bad sampling.

There was nothing there. They cleared land for it. The cleaning chemicals don't neutralize each other at every point. They wouldn't do anything if they did. The whole purpose is that they go through the plumbing as a non neutral solution

 

[SanPancho]

The whole purpose is that they go through the plumbing as a non neutral solution

What is the purpose of running them through the plumbing? Never heard of this, ever. Doesnt make any sense.

Cleared land could still have been a factory 100 years ago so industrial contamination still possible. And if the brewery is new then the likelihood of metals coming from the plumbing is even lower. As i said, id bet the waste lines are cast iron, abs or pvc. Typical modern plumbing systems. And Iron wasn't listed by the testers.

Might be the testing is picking up outside sources. Too far downstream from their discharge point, leaks in sewer lines, dirty sludge in the sewer lines, etc.

 

[Jmash]

MA doesnt allow PVC waste lines in commercial buildings.

 

[TheHairyHop]

edit: there's no point in continuing this discussion. It is fully

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

Hey guys, first post ever! This thread is amazing and motivated me to finally sign up!

I just kegged a beer I made using some of the information on this thread. I used 11.5 g S-04, 1 g WB-06 and 0.9 g T-58, co-pitched at 78F. I believe that ratio comes out to something like 85.8/7.5/6.7% S-04/WB-06/T-58. This is for a 5 gal batch, 6 gal into primary. I kegged with 36 oz of gyle from this batch's wort as primer to keg condition and 2 g of CBC-1. I tasted the hydrometer sample last night during kegging and it tasted a lot more hef-y than I would like, both clove and banana. Assuming it doesn't change drastically while conditioning with the CBC-1, I think next time I will cut the WB-06 down quite a bit and bump up the T-58. Maybe something like 85/3/12% S-04/WB-06/T-58.

 

[Jmash]

Yeah I can't see that there would have been anything there. Who knows with those towns though. Maybe stuff was dumped there. On a route that was busy back in the day when companies didn't care.

 

[TheHairyHop]

Hey guys, first post ever! This thread is amazing and motivated me to finally sign up!

I just kegged a beer I made using some of the information on this thread. I used 11.5 g S-04, 1 g WB-06 and 0.9 g T-58, co-pitched at 78F. I believe that ratio comes out to something like 85.8/7.5/6.7% S-04/WB-06/T-58. This is for a 5 gal batch, 6 gal into primary. I kegged with 36 oz of gyle from this batch's wort as primer to keg condition and 2 g of CBC-1. I tasted the hydrometer sample last night during kegging and it tasted a lot more hef-y than I would like, both clove and banana. Assuming it doesn't change drastically while conditioning with the CBC-1, I think next time I will cut the WB-06 down quite a bit and bump up the T-58. Maybe something like 85/3/12% S-04/WB-06/T-58.

fwiw, I have yet to get any fruit, juice or Tree House character from T-58. Maybe someone can chime in on what temp got them there. I'm pretty dubious tbh. My most serious attempt was S-04 and T-58 with Comet single hop. I thought it was too thin and didn't notice T-58 giving me anything that I particularly wanted. The caveat is that Comet is a crazy hop, and it may not jive well with that yeast combo

 

[Jmash]

In my perfect scenario it would be discovered that all their beers but Julius. Haze, and Doppleganger are the cause of the toxins and they just decide to keep to those recipes. It's a bummer when I have free time to drive out there and they have Bright or Lights on or some other one I don't care about....

 

[TheHairyHop]

In my perfect scenario it would be discovered that all their beers but Julius. Haze, and Doppleganger are the cause of the toxins and they just decide to keep to those recipes. It's a bummer when I have free time to drive out there and they have Bright or Lights on or some other one I don't care about....

have you had Doubleganger? It's ridiculously good. Haze gives me heartburn. Oddly enough, so does Oskar Blues' Pinner.

not to be confused with doppleganger!

 

[Jmash]

I love Doppleganger. I should add that I like Green too but I live 5 minutes away from Trillium and their stuff is equal to Green IMO.
I'm totally content with the stuff I brew on my own but to me Julius my target.

 

[TheHairyHop]

I have yet to hit Julius levels of flavor, but I think that I can regularly hit Trillium if I'm using the right hop variety. Last time I was back home, Trillium was the only brewery in Boston worth much. I don't see what is so good about Night Shift.

I would be curious to see an analysis of Trillium yeast, but my experience with their beers tells me that there is a good chance that nothing is terribly special

 

[SanPancho]

edit: there's no point in continuing this discussion. It is fully

when you're in a hole, stop digging.



and if anyone else is capable of doing the testing, i've got F2 to use for carbing. i emailed the rep to see if its also a "killer" strain but havent gotten a response yet after two weeks or so. the price differential for F2 vs CBC is pretty dramatic, if we're still thinking they use dry fermentis for primary then id be shocked if they used cbc instead of the f2.

 

[TheHairyHop]

when you're in a hole, stop digging.



and if anyone else is capable of doing the testing, i've got F2 to use for carbing. i emailed the rep to see if its also a "killer" strain but havent gotten a response yet after two weeks. not sure i'll get an answer from them.

You can take this insulting attitude and leave the thread. I had an actual response, but arguing goes no where. The point of this thread is for discussing the yeast that Tree House uses, and our attempts to recreate their flavor profile.

 

[SanPancho]

You can take this insulting attitude and leave the thread. I had an actual response, but arguing goes no where. The point of this thread is for discussing the yeast that Tree House uses, and our attempts to recreate their flavor profile.

see bottom of the post.


maybe you should leave?

 

[Jmash]

I have yet to hit Julius levels of flavor, but I think that I can regularly hit Trillium if I'm using the right hop variety. Last time I was back home, Trillium was the only brewery in Boston worth much. I don't see what is so good about Night Shift.

I would be curious to see an analysis of Trillium yeast, but my experience with their beers tells me that there is a good chance that nothing is terribly special

Agreed. I think my stuff is pretty close to trillium when using 1318. Im hoping the latest batch with 04/ t58 etc isnt a wasted batch. I sèe a lot of anti 04 threads

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

fwiw, I have yet to get any fruit, juice or Tree House character from T-58. Maybe someone can chime in on what temp got them there. I'm pretty dubious tbh. My most serious attempt was S-04 and T-58 with Comet single hop. I thought it was too thin and didn't notice T-58 giving me anything that I particularly wanted. The caveat is that Comet is a crazy hop, and it may not jive well with that yeast combo

Good to know, thanks. Out of curiosity, what temp did you pitch/ferment that attempt at? Not sure if you already mentioned this in an earlier post, but how many total grams did you pitch into how many gallons?

I pitched at 78F and didn't temp control this one which is a departure from other NEIPAs I've done (all with 1318). In the past I have pitched 1318 at 60F and raised the temp to 72F over the first 72 hours. This one just sat at a pretty steady 72F ambient. I pitched 13.4 g total into ~6 gal for 5 gal kegged.

You know, the one other thing I was thinking is that I doughed in at about 100F and decoction mashed this one (I know, I know, but I do it pretty often because I enjoy it). But then I remembered reading a BYO article that said that a mash rest just above 100F can make ferulic acid, which is a precursor to the clove phenol. I definitely got a perceptible amount of clove on this one. I mean, it doesn't scream hef, but there's more of that than I wanted, and certainly more than in any Treehouse beer I've had. Single infusion next time I guess.

 

[Sbe2]

Agreed. I think my stuff is pretty close to trillium when using 1318. Im hoping the latest batch with 04/ t58 etc isnt a wasted batch. I sèe a lot of anti 04 threads

I haven't seen a lot of recent anti 04 threads. I have made it my go to for NEIPAs. It is so easy to just dump a packet or two into my wort, no starter the night before, works for me.

 

[skibb]

Regarding T-58 flavors - I mainly get tons of bubble gum out of this yeast, some juicy quality but I mainly attribute that to my hops and residual sugars - T-58 for me, does not attenuate well, especially when compared to other Belgian strains. I make a Belgian IPA, pitch at 70, and ferment at 75, Cascade hops in the boil and double dry hopped with Citra. Mash at 152 - OG around 1.064, finishes around 1.014-16. This beer can definitely be described as juicy and screams bubble gum and citrus. However, I do not see much TH character in it.

I'm personally not convinced they are intentionally using T-58. Fermentis/dry yeast is notorious for not being pure - after multiple harvests/repitches the populations of secondary/tertiary yeasts present could grow to the levels we are seeing. These beers have a LOT of hop character, and hops can really cover some stuff up (like low levels of ester contributed by yeasts like T-58).

 

[NJGeorge]

So my batch that has been fermenting since Friday night has slowed significantly. 1st dry hop addition added last night and fermenting at 75 room temp. Smells great so far!

 

[isomerization]

Regarding T-58 flavors - I mainly get tons of bubble gum out of this yeast, some juicy quality but I mainly attribute that to my hops and residual sugars - T-58 for me, does not attenuate well, especially when compared to other Belgian strains. I make a Belgian IPA, pitch at 70, and ferment at 75, Cascade hops in the boil and double dry hopped with Citra. Mash at 152 - OG around 1.064, finishes around 1.014-16. This beer can definitely be described as juicy and screams bubble gum and citrus. However, I do not see much TH character in it.

I'm personally not convinced they are intentionally using T-58. Fermentis/dry yeast is notorious for not being pure - after multiple harvests/repitches the populations of secondary/tertiary yeasts present could grow to the levels we are seeing. These beers have a LOT of hop character, and hops can really cover some stuff up (like low levels of ester contributed by yeasts like T-58).

Im not saying your theory can't be correct, but how would it be much different than what is being done here? That is, overwhelming majority of S-04 with minor populations of T-58 (I definitely echo the bubble gum aroma experience) and WB-06. Do you have any links to discussions of contaminated dry yeasts? I'm interested in what ratio we are talking about here. Also, based on how Nate acts (online interactions and the court of public opinion), I highly doubt they are re-pitching yeast and certainly not without testing it in a lab. This guy is supposedly the biggest control freak ever...

My genetic tests relied on recovering yeast from the dregs of pretty much every one of TH's main lineup. The ratios are meaningless, but what isn't (imo), is that different yeast strains were picked up. "Matching" them to Fermentis products is speculative, but strongly so (again imo). I grew up starters of each isolate and the S-04 like strain flocced hard when it was done, the T-58 smelled literally like juicy fruit gum and the WB-06 had a weird tartness to it (could provide juice descriptors at low levels?). So there is some phenotypic support to the genotypic data too.

Anyways, I have personally stuck with using 1318 sans temp control (peak temps around 74-76) as I enjoy the final product immensely. I do plan to come back to testing these yeast (I like the idea of dry yeast v. dealing with starters and harvesting yeast).

 

[melville]

So my batch that has been fermenting since Friday night has slowed significantly. 1st dry hop addition added last night and fermenting at 75 room temp. Smells great so far!

I've taken to doing the first DH with this trio at roughly 24 hrs. By 48 hours these guys have done the vast majority of their work and one thing I've noticed in going through my notes, is that when I miss that "peak" the beers visually aren't the same. Schedule now is DH at 24 and DH #2 by day 4 so there's just a bit left to push out any O2 that gets in, because these beers are done by day 6 or 7. Quick crash and closed transfer to keg with DH #3 and condition for 7 days, then cold condition for a 2-3 days.

 

[NJGeorge]

I've taken to doing the first DH with this trio at roughly 24 hrs. By 48 hours these guys have done the vast majority of their work and one thing I've noticed in going through my notes, is that when I miss that "peak" the beers visually aren't the same. Schedule now is DH at 24 and DH #2 by day 4 so there's just a bit left to push out any O2 that gets in, because these beers are done by day 6 or 7. Quick crash and closed transfer to keg with DH #3 and condition for 7 days, then cold condition for a 2-3 days.

Thanks! Will definitely implement. so the beers only look different, but how is the taste?

 

[skibb]

Im not saying your theory can't be correct, but how would it be much different than what is being done here? That is, overwhelming majority of S-04 with minor populations of T-58 (I definitely echo the bubble gum aroma experience) and WB-06. Do you have any links to discussions of contaminated dry yeasts? I'm interested in what ratio we are talking about here. Also, based on how Nate acts (online interactions and the court of public opinion), I highly doubt they are re-pitching yeast and certainly not without testing it in a lab. This guy is supposedly the biggest control freak ever...

It is seems it is much different - the yeast blends are all coming off too spicy/phenolic or tart - neither of which are things I detect in treehouse beers. The only non-Enlgish character I get is bubblegum, but surprisingly, that has been detected in our house IPAs from time to time during bi-monthly employee sensory.

The data I have is mainly from our own plates - we have been using S-04 for our hoppy beers for over a year now (we originally used wlp007 but found S-04 better for our hoppy beers... and cheaper). Generally we plate our FVs on day 5 of fermentation - at about generation 3 we start to see other yeast morphologies start to pop up - we have not bothered to get these other yeasts sequenced...yet.

Also, a good friend who works at a renowned QA lab in town for the alcohol industry (think of any major brewery/distillery and they have very likely used his company to do QA/QC work) has confirmed fresh bricks of S-05 to be unpure - I can only assume S-04 would be the same.

I don't know Nate or much about him, but I would be surprised if he did not harvest and repitch any of his yeast. I don't know of any other major brewery that doesn't practice this, but maybe that's whats so special about TH!

Like I said, I'm not convinced it's an actual blend - But who knows! I'm wrong about a lot of things but always trying to learn and that's why I still come to these forums and participate in awesome threads like this.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Generally we plate our FVs on day 5 of fermentation - at about generation 3 we start to see other yeast morphologies start to pop up - we have not bothered to get these other yeasts sequenced...yet.

But is that contamination of the original, contamination that's been picked up in the brewery, or just morphology mutants of the S-04? Don't think you have evidence to claim that it must be the first??

<European brewer>The whole pure strain thing is overrated, let them evolve and adapt to the brewery....</Eb>

 

[couchsending]

I still don&#8217;t think the yeast blend is added at the beginning of fermentation.

Just did an interesting experiment where I mashed high (156) and used 1469 (man is that a weird acting yeast). Ended at 1.022 then I bumped it up to 70, added some enzymes, bagged DH addition, and a gram of WB-06. 2 days later down to 1.012. Gravity samples tasted great and no real phenols, too early to tell though. It&#8217;s sitting at 55 to hopefully get that 1469 to at least drop slightly but I think it might take a while.

I&#8217;m really starting to believe that the different yeasts are added towards the end of fermentation with either sugar additions and/or DH additions just to add that little bit of complexity and munch on any O2 added by DH.

 

[Dog House Brew]

It is seems it is much different - the yeast blends are all coming off too spicy/phenolic or tart - neither of which are things I detect in treehouse beers. The only non-Enlgish character I get is bubblegum, but surprisingly, that has been detected in our house IPAs from time to time during bi-monthly employee sensory.

The data I have is mainly from our own plates - we have been using S-04 for our hoppy beers for over a year now (we originally used wlp007 but found S-04 better for our hoppy beers... and cheaper). Generally we plate our FVs on day 5 of fermentation - at about generation 3 we start to see other yeast morphologies start to pop up - we have not bothered to get these other yeasts sequenced...yet.

Also, a good friend who works at a renowned QA lab in town for the alcohol industry (think of any major brewery/distillery and they have very likely used his company to do QA/QC work) has confirmed fresh bricks of S-05 to be unpure - I can only assume S-04 would be the same.

I don't know Nate or much about him, but I would be surprised if he did not harvest and repitch any of his yeast. I don't know of any other major brewery that doesn't practice this, but maybe that's whats so special about TH!

Like I said, I'm not convinced it's an actual blend - But who knows! I'm wrong about a lot of things but always trying to learn and that's why I still come to these forums and participate in awesome threads like this.

Hey Skibb where do you brew? I work in Lex some. I agree with what you say. I can’t imagine a large production facility blending dry yeast strains. I could be wrong. I’ve always used 007 for my hoppy beers. What do you like more about 04 other than the ease and cost? I’ve learned a lot from this thread, thanks.

 

[Sbe2]

What is the purity of a brick of S-04. To make it simplistic let's say they use 1000 gram bricks. If it's 95% pure and the rest is others, will 50 grams of other yeast be enough to change the character of a beer? Maybe that's why temp control is key?

I know this will add tons of variables with which we think Nate does not appreciate, but it could explain why some beers have all three strains and the others only have two??

I could be way off... Just trying to think this through

 

[skibb]

But is that contamination of the original, contamination that's been picked up in the brewery, or just morphology mutants of the S-04? Don't think you have evidence to claim that it must be the first??

I never claimed it must be anything other than other yeasts.

Until we get them sequenced, we really don't know if they are other Fermentis strains, or ambient wild yeasts introduced through other means than the brick.

We have on a couple occasions, seen more than one morphology starting with generation 0. Our cleaning/sanitation practices are very very strict - we place an incredible amount of importance on quality, which is one of the reasons we have a lab and a micro biologist onsite. This isn't to say we could be introducing the contamination ourselves, but I find it hard to believe an ambient yeast grows to detectable proportions concurrently with a fresh pitch from 1.5 bricks of S-04.

@Dog House Brew
I brew at Ethereal on Manchester St.

For me, S-04 is an easier yeast to use, it does not flocculate as hard/compact as much as WLP007, so it is easier to harvest. Other than that, flavors are pretty similar, we do seem to get more esters out of S-04, which I think compliment the hops better.

 

[Dog House Brew]

@Dog House Brew
I brew at Ethereal on Manchester St.

For me, S-04 is an easier yeast to use, it does not flocculate as hard/compact as much as WLP007, so it is easier to harvest. Other than that, flavors are pretty similar, we do seem to get more esters out of S-04, which I think compliment the hops better.

Thanks for the info Skibb. I’ll definitely stop by when I’m in Lex. Like your place and the focus styles. I’ll have to revisit 04 on a split of my next ipa batch.

 

[NJGeorge]

With the possibility of a brick of s-04 not being 100% pure, what would the other yeast in there be? Could it be anything? Could it be wb-06 and t-58? Maybe they're just using s04 and the tests made by isomerization are picking up those "other" yeasts. It could be that TH doesn't even blend! Who knows... at the end of the day we just have to keep experimenting.