Is WLP002 really that fast??

[MachineShopBrewing]

I took a hydrometer reading too and got 1.018-20. Still about 6 points higher than I expected after 3 weeks. I re-hydrated and pitched the Notty. The fermenter is now sitting in my closet at 70f.

But what you said makes sense with what I observed. I could not get a consistent read from the refractometer. I took 3 samples and got results of 8, 7.8, and 7. Does that mean the alcohol was skewing those results?

Hopefully a full pack o rehydrated Notty will not be overwhelmed by the alcohol already present . I am just wanting to squeeze that last few points out.

What was your grain bill? That may be as far as it will go down. I doubt the Notty will do anything. Once you get under 1.020, it is best to just leave it and figure out why it finished where it did. 1.018 isn't that high for a brown ale.

 

[winvarin]

It's the beer listed in the English Brown section of the recipe forum as Nut Brown AG

Amount Item Type % or IBU
9.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 76.6 %
1.00 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 8.5 %
1.00 lb Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 8.5 %
0.50 lb Victory Malt (25.0 SRM) Grain 4.3 %
0.25 lb Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 2.1 %
1.00 oz Fuggles [4.50%] (60 min) Hops 14.7 IBU
1.00 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00%] (15 min) Hops 8.1 IBU

Used Maris Otter for the base malt. Mashed at 154-154.5. OG was 1.054. Fermented in the mid 60s with 2 vials of 002.

When I tasted it this afternoon it was malt forward but not at all sweet. Light English hop flavor and yeast profile were definitely evident.

I was just surprised that I only got 67% attenuation, considering what everyone has said here about their super attenuative results with this yeast. Maybe no so surprising considering my mash temp.

Notty is in at this point. I'll just let it ride another week. Taste was very clean today. And I followed the same sanitation regimen with the Nottty that I would with an unfermented wort. So worst case, I'll knock it down a couple more points.

Tell you what. That's my first experience with this recipe. If the finished product is in the same ballpark as the hydrometer sample, it may find a place in my regular fall lineup.

 

[AnchorBock]

It's the beer listed in the English Brown section of the recipe forum as Nut Brown AG

Amount Item Type % or IBU
9.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 76.6 %
1.00 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 8.5 %
1.00 lb Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 8.5 %
0.50 lb Victory Malt (25.0 SRM) Grain 4.3 %
0.25 lb Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 2.1 %
1.00 oz Fuggles [4.50%] (60 min) Hops 14.7 IBU
1.00 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00%] (15 min) Hops 8.1 IBU

Used Maris Otter for the base malt. Mashed at 154-154.5. OG was 1.054. Fermented in the mid 60s with 2 vials of 002.

When I tasted it this afternoon it was malt forward but not at all sweet. Light English hop flavor and yeast profile were definitely evident.

I was just surprised that I only got 67% attenuation, considering what everyone has said here about their super attenuative results with this yeast. Maybe no so surprising considering my mash temp.

Notty is in at this point. I'll just let it ride another week. Taste was very clean today. And I followed the same sanitation regimen with the Nottty that I would with an unfermented wort. So worst case, I'll knock it down a couple more points.

Tell you what. That's my first experience with this recipe. If the finished product is in the same ballpark as the hydrometer sample, it may find a place in my regular fall lineup.

67% at 154F sounds about right - you just mashed a bit high if you were looking for something drier. If you want something a little drier mash closer to 150, if you want to go really dry you can do something like Firestone Walker and mash at 145F for around 45 minutes and 155F for around 15 minutes (I've done 145 for an hour and 155 for 30 minutes and gotten over 80% attenuation with 002).

If the beer tasted good already, why pitch more yeast?

 

[winvarin]

If the beer tasted good already, why pitch more yeast?

A combination of things really. My "standard" single temp mash is 150-52. I was looking for more body (along the lines of Avery's Ellie's Brown). So I mashed high.

But since I don't usually mash as high as I did, I really didn't know what to expect in terms of attenuation. Then I took both a hydrometer and a refractometer reading and spooked myself a bit.

Three refractometer readings gave 3 different results. The tool is relatively new to me and I am still getting used to it. I did the conversions and it looked like the Brix value I got could have converted to as high as 1.031. Then someone here pointed out that the Brix reading post ferment may be unreliable due to the presence of alcohol.

When I did the hydrometer reading, I was fluctuating between 1018 and 1020. So about 67%. When prepping this recipe initially, since I don't usually mash this high, I figured on ending up on the low end of 002's attenuation (I want to say I was planning to hit 72%).

When I was only a 67% after 19 days, I assumed I was stuck and pitched the Notty to get those extra few points.

I am not shooting for a dry beer by any means. I was just making the assumption that I needed to be drier than I was. The way it tasted today, if I don't drop another point, it is still a really good beer. Even if I did just bump the price of the batch up a few $ by pitching the Nottingham.

 

[MachineShopBrewing]

67% with 002 is about right with that recipe and mash temp. Next time you could try the 007 if you want. That would take it down to the 1.010-1.014 range. Calibrate your thermometers too. You would be surprised how easy it is for a thermometer to be off at mash temps. I was having a problem a couple years ago with my beers finishing high. I found out my thermometer was reading 6 degrees low at mash temps.

 

[winvarin]

67% with 002 is about right with that recipe and mash temp. Next time you could try the 007 if you want. That would take it down to the 1.010-1.014 range. Calibrate your thermometers too. You would be surprised how easy it is for a thermometer to be off at mash temps. I was having a problem a couple years ago with my beers finishing high. I found out my thermometer was reading 6 degrees low at mash temps.

Dry is not really what I am looking for. I just thought I wasn't dry enough. If 1020 is where I wind up, I am good with that. I just didn't know where to expect to end up with that much roasted grain and that mash temp.

It sounds like we're saying I'm not stuck.

For what it's worth, I just tried my Thermapen in a glass of 50/50 crushed ice and water. I get fluctuations between 31.9 and 32.3.

 

[GilSwillBasementBrews]

Dry is not really what I am looking for. I just thought I wasn't dry enough. If 1020 is where I wind up, I am good with that. I just didn't know where to expect to end up with that much roasted grain and that mash temp.

It sounds like we're saying I'm not stuck.

For what it's worth, I just tried my Thermapen in a glass of 50/50 crushed ice and water. I get fluctuations between 31.9 and 32.3.

Yeah I think you're fine. I think it just finished higher than you were expecting it too. I've had a few beers finish around 1.020 mostly from extract batches but a few all grains petered out before they reached where I thought they were going to go to.

 

[winvarin]

A little update. I pitched the Notty at 2 pm yesterday and set it in my closet at 68F. As of this morning, I am getting a little off gassing in the airlock. I can also see some yeast "rafts" here and there and see bubbles coming up through the wort. Looks like I am going to take it down a couple of points anyway. The plan at this point is to leave it a week and keg next Sunday.

It was a full pack of re-hydrated Nottingham. Do you think a week is enough to let it finish up? I figure there's not a great amount of residual sugar, so what ferment I get should not be overly long. I just don't want to run the risk of this new fermentation leaving some of its pre-cursors behind (acetaldehyde or diacetyl). I can leave it an extra week if I need to. But at this point, it is still on the primary trub and yeast cake from the 002.

Was going to serve this at Thanksgiving. Looks like this will be a Christmas beer now.

 

[DrinkNoH2O]

Refractometers are basically worthless after you pitch the yeast, the alcohol skews the reading. There are conversion charts but they aren't very accurate. Hydrometer is the only way to go.

I doubt your mash temp is the culprit, you were just a tad high.

I'd try and warm the beer up a few degrees, I bet it will pick back up.

 

[winvarin]

OK. This is a little odd. Well, I say odd, but I don't usually do an extra yeast pitch, so I am in uncharted territory.

So I pitched the rehydrated Notty a week ago, Within 24 hrs, I didn't have a krausen (to be expected since I had already dropped a bit with the 002), but I did see small yeast "rafts" floating on top and giving off CO2. But these rafts have persisted all week. We are now a week ago today and they are still there, and creating enough C02 to push the airlock. It has been in a 70-71F closet all week.

I just moved it back out to my fermenting fridge (65F) but I find it off that there was enough sugar left for a full pack of Notty to chew through for that long. My first thought was that I'd infected it with the repitch, but I pulled the stopper on the better bottle and took a whiff and it smells OK. I didn't pull a taste/hydro sample because there was still a lot of yeast in suspension.

So that's 4 weeks now (3 on the 002 alone that finished high). Then another week with a repitch of Notty. I was really hoping to keg it this weekend, but I really think I need to let it ride through the holiday weekend to get the Nottingham to drop out. I see some Notty clinging to the sides, so I am hoping that means it's trying to settle out. Hopefully the few degrees of temp drop helps.

I'd really like to clear this up and taste it to ensure that I have not done any harm with the secondary yeast pitch.

Any yeast wranglers, especially those with experience with British strains want to weigh in?

 

[DrinkNoH2O]

Check the gravity.

 

[Dirty25]

3 days is pretty normal for WLP/w1968/s-04 from my experience but as most says let it go longer to "clean up"

 

[winvarin]

Kegged it last Saturday. With 2 weeks of the secondary pitch of Notty, I had only dropped from 1.020 to 1.018. Figured I had squeezed as much out of it as I could.

Drinking 1 now. I am pretty sure most of the yeast profile I am getting is from the 002. Pulled 1 pint to purge the yeast from the keg. My second pull was all but brilliantly clear. Light mineral taste as the beer warms and I am just barely picking up the EKG I used to finish. The yeast left just enough of the caramel sweetness from the crystal to really round this beer out.

Man I love this yeast.

 

[winvarin]

Reviving this relic of a thread. I have been brewing steadily with 002 since this thread. And I still love it. I have been listening to a lot of Jamil podcasts as well and have started getting good results pitching low, letting this yeast free rise, then ramping up a couple more degrees as ferment slows (which is usually around day 3). I usually do a moderate sized starter, then pitch most of my English beers at around 64F with this strain. I set my temp controller to 66F and let the beer rise into that range. Then around 72 hours, I kick it up to 68F. Once the krausen drops (usually between 72-96 hrs) I set the temp to 70F for clean up and dry out.

I've also gone to 10 gallon batches and have been doing a lot of side by side comparisons of yeasts. Last Friday, I decided to try Jamil's ESB from BCS, 5 gallons with WLP002 and 5 gallons with 005. I'd not tried the 005 before and was interested to try it in a recipe I have made before head to head against a yeast I have tried before.

Anybody on this thread have experience with 005? Reading the descriptions on White Labs's site, it sounds like it's just a more attenuative version of 002. I took it through my 002 temperature-ramping regimen side by side with the 002 (see above). I have only been a little more than 4 days in the carboy so I have not yet taken a gravity reading. But at least visually, it appears to be performing identically to the 002.

1L starters for each. I had positive pressure against both airlocks in about 6-7 hours. By 12 hours I had krausen (which has been typical when I pitch an actively fermenting starter). Both fermented vigorously for about 72 hours then dropped krausen. Neither has dropped clear yet although if past performance is any indicator, I expect I'll see some significant clearing by tomorrow. They are both off-gassing steadily still today.

So far, the only real difference I have noticed is that the 005 ran 1-2F warmer in the early stages of active fermentation than the 002. When I pitched the starters, I poured off a little of the starter beer into a glass to smell and taste before pitching. It seems like the 002 was a little more estery than the 005, but I am not placing a great deal of stock in that since it was unhopped, over-aerated starter wort after all.

Has anyone else used these side by side? I'd be interested to hear any observations so I can know what differences to look for as these 2 beers develop.

 

[DrinkNoH2O]

I love WLP002 but have only used WLP005 a couple times. If memory serves me correctly you definitely want to do a Diacetyl rest with 005, and it produces more esters than 002.

 

[winvarin]

I generally ferment 002 at 66, then ramp to 68, and finish for a few days at 70. They are both going through these steps now. They were at 66f from Friday afternoon until Monday afternoon. I ramped to 68f Monday evening and then up to 70 this morning. I plan on leaving there until this weekend when I check the gravity and start to bring the temp back down slowly to clear things up for kegging.

I would think that's sufficient for diacetyl rest, wouldn't you?

 

[AnchorBock]

Would it not leave behind too much residual sweetness for something big like a barley wine? I would be worried that you'd leave behind too much malt sweetness with a big grain bill

I'll provide an update as well. I used WLP002 in an English Barleywine OG 1.102 - mashed at 148. It had fermented down to 1.023 on the 5th day. I racked to a keg for secondary after a few weeks and let it sit in my 50-55* basement all winter and it was at 1.022 when I bottled (carbonated in the keg prior to bottling). So that's about 77% apparent attenuation and 10.7% ABV.

It's really tasty as is - definitely not sweet (one friend actually said it needs more sweetness, but I think he's looking for a little caramel character from oxidation that he's probably used to from buying commercial barleywines). I wouldn't hesitate to use WLP002 again in a big beer.