Is there a need to boil extract?

[bernardsmith]

Apologies if this question has been asked a thousand times but I cannot find a good answer. I make mead and wine but very occasionally do I brew beer, but I am planning on making a braggot - a hybrid beer and mead and for this braggot my thought is to use DME - I prefer a very short brew day. The thing is that I am not using hops but I will be using some herbs and the herbs will need to be boiled for about 15 - 30 minutes. My sense is that DME has been fully prepared so that there is no reason to boil the DME in order to remove protein or DMS, or to halt enzymatic acytivity: DME is no more and no less than dried wort, and further boiling the DME will unnecessarily caramelize and darken it. If that is correct, does that mean that I can simply add the DME as the tea is off the boil and is beginning to cool down or is there a good reason to add the DME before I kill the flame on the herbs? Thanks.

 

[Dog House Brew]

I've never had any issue not boiling DME. I have added it to hot water, much like your tea. I've never mixed with lukewarm water. It has always been added once the water was boil temp and off heat. This is how I make my starters

 

[barada83]

There’s not much to boil for conversion of dme to something else like cold or hot break. Although with some starters I canned there was break after the process so maybe it’s not perfect. I’d be more concerned on the biological side of the potential for infection. Boiling is a great way to sanitize things, although it doesn’t truly sterilize it. But it definitely would decrease your likelihood of infection along with proper sanitation.

 

[bernardsmith]

There’s not much to boil for conversion of dme to something else like cold or hot break. Although with some starters I canned there was break after the process so maybe it’s not perfect. I’d be more concerned on the biological side of the potential for infection. Boiling is a great way to sanitize things, although it doesn’t truly sterilize it. But it definitely would decrease your likelihood of infection along with proper sanitation.

But isn't DME and LME boiled (under pressure) to evaporate off all (DME) or most (LME) of the water and is then packed and sealed, presumably under recognized sanitary conditions for the manufacture of food products? Wouldn't boiling a second time immediately after opening the pack be the equivalent to wearing belt and suspenders to keep your pants from falling?

 

[barada83]

I would imagine on an industrial scale it is packaged in food grade and sanitary conditions. But it’s not sterile and the end product is good for a certain shelf life. Syrups and powders tend to have long lives on account of too low water content.
Another point, if they are boiled, they won’t be done so under pressure which would slow the boil. It would be done under a vacuum which lowers the boiling point and increases the rate of boil off. As such, 212F is not sterilization temp, that requires 250F. Lowering that even further will decrease killing off whatever microbes are in there.
Of course, there is also the lack of sanitation on your home brewing end unless you are in a microbiology lab (which I have plenty of experience with) with laminar flow hoods, decontamination practices, UV irradiation, gloves, autoclaved tools, and sterilization of the outside of packages and transfer from dirty side to clean side with a no contact transfer method.
I don’t know about you but I’m not going to risk ruining a batch of anything by not boiling my malt extracts for 30 min. Some mild carmelization would be the least of my concerns.

 

[Yooper]

I don't boil extract, but I have added it to hot water. It sure dissolves easier that way!

 

[ncbrewer]

Late extract addition has become very common. Many brewers add the late extract at flameout and don't boil it at all. When extract is added to boiled wort (at boiling temperature) the mix will still be at pasteurization temperature.

 

[bernardsmith]

Truly thanks to everyone who posted their thoughtful points. I hear the pluses and the minuses but I guess I am not overly concerned with a need to sterilize anything; sanitization being adequate for my purposes and after all, this braggot will be at around 13% ABV and not 3 or 4% - it's not a session beer; the pH will be around 3.0 ( and so souring is not really something I am overly worried about either - lactic acids can play with the malic and citric that will be in this concoction); and the total volume is only one gallon, so shelf life is also not an issue, given that wine makers tend to use K-meta to extend shelf life by inhibiting oxidation and the like.

This is a braggot that will use about 2 lbs of a variety of honey, 1 lb of DME and some heather and elderflower pitched with wine yeast (Premier Classique) and my plan at this time is to add the DME to the cooling herbal tea and then add the honey to the wort after it has cooled sufficiently for me to happily add the honey.
If anyone is interested I will provide an update on the progress - although my plan is start this braggot after the July 4th weekend.

 

[Steveruch]

You don't need to boil extract.

 

[Advocatus]

There are no boil beer kits. The malt extract is normally pre hopped though so you have even less control over the final product. Late malt additions are also common. This lets you boil your hops. as you see fit then add the malt as you see fit as well.

 

[Snuffy]

I would add the DME near the end while the liquid is still hot enough to melt the gobs. Otherwise you'll chase em around for a while with a spoon.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

http://blog.brewingwithbriess.com/kiss-those-dme-clumps-goodbye-2/
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/no-boil-recipes-new-for-2019.660329/

 

[Snuffy]

http://blog.brewingwithbriess.com/kiss-those-dme-clumps-goodbye-2/

That sounds like a good idea. Cause trying to scrape that sticky, crackly stuff off the bag and your fingers after dumping it into steaming wort is a PitA. And then you spend 10 minutes trying to mash the floating gobs against the side to break them up. I'd just go with extract syrup and skip the dry stuff altogether.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Cause trying to scrape that sticky, crackly stuff off the bag and your fingers after dumping it into steaming wort is a PitA. And then you spend 10 minutes trying to mash the floating gobs against the side to break them up.

Yup - doing it wrong is a PitA.

Another way to avoid clumps with DME is a wire whisk (electric ones have 1000s of additional uses in the kitchen).

I'd just go with extract syrup and skip the dry stuff altogether.

Brew how to like, and (most importantly) like what you brew!

 

[KeizerBrewr]

I add a pound of DME/LME(I prefer DME) at the beginning of the boil for buffering for the hops, then at flame out, I add the remainder and mix thoroughly. By the time I get it down to pitching temps its been almost a half hour for a 5 gallon batch, so it's safe and ready rock.

 

[davidabcd]

I still boil DME for sixty minutes (most at the end, boil to melt and then flame out). The hops are scheduled for sixty and I have no desire to experiment. I don't know where the info came from that you don't need to boil DME. I'm not doubting it, just haven't seen it.
As far as DME being messy, put it in carefully in a steel bowl and tilt the DME into the pot, the hot liquid gets all the DME off the bowl with a few dunks and maybe a rubber spatula. LME is a much larger task since you have to warm it and scrape it, add hot liquid, scrape it, etc.

 

[Steveruch]

I still boil DME for sixty minutes (most at the end, boil to melt and then flame out). The hops are scheduled for sixty and I have no desire to experiment. I don't know where the info came from that you don't need to boil DME. I'm not doubting it, just haven't seen it.

Both dme and lme are boiled during the process of manufacturing them. So rehydrating them is all that is actually required.

 

[bernardsmith]

That is exactly my thinking but if you are adding hops then you will need to boil the hops for 60 minutes (bittering) or 10 minutes (flavoring) or not (aromatics) but then you COULD simply boil the hops in water (with perhaps a few drops of lemon juice to reduce the pH. and so add the cooled hop tea to the extract and so the extract would not have been unnecessarily darkened by unnecessary boiling...

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

It should be noted that many "no boil" recipes will heat the wort to 180F for 20 to 30 minutes (to achieve some amount of bitterness).

The Effect of Post-Boil/Whirlpool Hop Additions on Bitterness in Beer has data for lab measured IBUs related to "hop steeps".

Show notes for the Basic Brewing Radio Nov 1, 2018 episode (IBUs vs Wort Gravity and Hop Stand Temps) has similar data.

 

[davidabcd]

Anyone who knows:
Can you boil two or three gallons of water for the hop schedule and then add all of the DME at flameout (heat it up but that's it)? I was under the assumption to use 1/3 of the total DME at the beginning.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Boil Hops, Not Extract describes a process where the hops are boiled in wort made from steeping grains + 1 cup DME/LME.

 

[Steveruch]

Boil Hops, Not Extract describes a process where the hops are boiled in wort made from steeping grains + 1 cup DME/LME.

In recipes that have steeping grains I often boil that liquid with some hops.

 

[NGD]

It should be noted that many "no boil" recipes will heat the wort to 180F for 20 to 30 minutes (to achieve some amount of bitterness).

The Effect of Post-Boil/Whirlpool Hop Additions on Bitterness in Beer has data for lab measured IBUs related to "hop steeps".

Show notes for the Basic Brewing Radio Nov 1, 2018 episode (IBUs vs Wort Gravity and Hop Stand Temps) has similar data.

Thank you for this link. I’ve taken to doing 20-30 minute boils for my past few batches. On one SMASH ipa I’ve made, i tried a 20 min vs 60 min boil in a small batch (both were 2 gallons). Although I perceived slighly more bitterness with the 60 minute boil I decided it wasn't worth my time for such a small gain vs using slightly more hops. the shorter boil had a better balance of bittering and aroma.

 

[FloppyKnockers]

Nope.


TL;DNR

No

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I’ve taken to doing 20-30 minute boils for my past few batches.

It's been a while since I've done a 60 min extract+steep recipe - basically two reasons: 1) BIAB and 2) BBR's "Hop Sampler" process.

I will brew occasionally with a 15 minute boil. My 15 minute batches are full boil with all the DME "up front" (no late additions of DME). The combination of low intensity boil (visually: level 1 or simmer), fresh DME, and a good model for estimating wort color (see note below) results in an enjoyable beer.

15 minute boil goes back a number of years

• 15 minute boil?
• 15 Minute Cascade Pale Ale
• Ideas for style variations

On the "no boil" side, there is No-Boil Recipes! New for 2019! here at Homebrew Talk. For additional style variations, @Steveruch has a pair of Zymurgy magazine articles (with recipes) that are a good starting point.https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/no-boil-recipes-new-for-2019.660329/

----------------------------------

side notes:

These two Beersmith blog articles may be helpful with approximating bitterness for the 1st batch with "no-boil" approaches:

• Hop Utilization in the Whirlpool for Beer Brewing | Home Brewing Beer Blog by BeerSmith™
• High Altitude Beer Brewing and Hop Utilization | Home Brewing Beer Blog by BeerSmith™

With regard to estimating color with extracts, start here (see highlighted text) ...

... and for additional º L information (based on Plato/SG), check the product information sheets.

 

[smokewater]

I wanted to get a batch in the fermenter as fast as possible before going out of town. I sanitized the crap out of my fermenter, ran 6 gallons of cold water from the bathtub and stirred in 6 lbs of Amber DME.

On the stove I boiled about 3 oz of cascade, centennial and Amarillo hop pellets I have had in the freezer for a few years for 30 minutes in about a gallon of water. I also added a cup of brown sugar to bring the gravity up. Pitched dry safeale 05.

Total brew day about 30 minutes.

Just kicked that keg yesterday. It was remarkably good. My wife liked it a lot. Had some grapefruit finish she liked.

I had 2 gallons stored in water jugs in the fridge left over from racking day. I dumped them in the empty keg to carbonate when it kicked. Probably O2 all to hell. We will see if I can screw up.

It's something I will do again.

 

[madscientist451]

Quick answer, no, it's already been boiled, long answer: depends on what you are doing with your hops. For a Braggot, no boil works just fine.

 

[nathanscrivener]

I very rarely boil my extract recipes any more. I make sure my gear is really clean and I use distilled water. I also ferment under pressure at 73f for ales so the temperature gets the fermentation going pretty quickly which might be something to do with the good results. I have made some stellar beers this way so it definitely can be done.