Is Second Staging Necessary?

[Tenkos]

Hello all. Im new to Brewing and new to the Forum so I thought I'd start a thread on a subject I didn't see too much on.

Understanding that there is a reason why it's done for certain beers, I thought I'd raise the question as to if a second stage in my fermentation process we're truly necessary. Currently I have an English Porter fermenting and it is about to hit a week in tomorrow. I was told that I should siphon the beer into a second Carboy to remove the beer from most of the sediment in order to preserve flavor and remove most of the expended yeast. The only problem is that I would have to purchase a second Carboy...

Thoughts?

 

[ob_1jr]

Most everyone on here will tell you that you don't have to use a secondary ever. I have only used a secondary if I was adding something like fruit or cocoa nibs and PB2 (chocolate covered BEAVR nutz). From reading on here most people just leave their beer in the primary for 3-4 weeks and then cold crash it.

 

[RM-MN]

Hello all. Im new to Brewing and new to the Forum so I thought I'd start a thread on a subject I didn't see too much on.

Understanding that there is a reason why it's done for certain beers, I thought I'd raise the question as to if a second stage in my fermentation process we're truly necessary. Currently I have an English Porter fermenting and it is about to hit a week in tomorrow. I was told that I should siphon the beer into a second Carboy to remove the beer from most of the sediment in order to preserve flavor and remove most of the expended yeast. The only problem is that I would have to purchase a second Carboy...

Thoughts?

Much of this information is old, based on poorer quality yeast and the practices of professional brewers where it really is important to get the beer off the yeast. With our yeast available now and the much smaller quantities there really is no reason to move most beers to a second vessel.

 

[unionrdr]

Well,actually op this subject is discussed on here daily. Should come up in a search. Anyway,the only time I use a secondary is for oaking or fruit additions,that sort of thing. Otherwise,it stays in primary till it hits FG. Then give it another 3-7 days to clean up any by products of fermentation & settle out clear or slightly misty. You can use a secondary if you want,but most of us don't. Less chance to oxidize or infect the beer. Less to clean,certainly.
Commercial brewers still have to get it off the yeast,since those silo-sized fermenters exert a lot of pressure on the yeast & trub at the bottom. We don't have that problem with only 5-6 gallons of wort at a time.

 

[jschein]

Leave it alone for 4 weeks then bottle or keg. I leave stouts and porters 6 to 8 weeks. Make a few of the same beers and let it sit an extra week each time and you will be happy you did. I don't cold crash either no frig to do that.

 

[pfgonzo]

I'll jump in for a counter point. I do secondary because I tend to lager each of my beers, ales included, and I keg.

There is a certain depth of trub after primary fermentation completes. If I siphon directly to my keg from primary, I tend to inevitably suck up more than I want from the bottom, and my first pint or two from the keg has floaties. Not a problem for most people, but I've found that if I secondary, that extra bit of trub that I sucked up the first time settles (along with more yeast during the lagering process), and when I siphon to my keg from secondary, there's a whole lot less that I accidentally suck up into my keg. My first pints pour clear doing this, and it works for me. Commercial breweries do this, but they don't call it a "secondary;" they call it a "bright tank."

Is it necessary for good beer? Absolutely not. I wouldn't do it at all if I still bottled, because you're getting sediment from the carbonation process anyway. If you bottle, don't bother with it. If you keg, it's something to consider.

 

[BigFloyd]

No. You ought not to secondary your porter. You're not adding fruit or long-term aging, so there's nothing really to be gained. The extra racking step will, however, increase the risk of oxidation, especially for newer brewers who don't yet have much practice with it.

I let mine (ales and lagers both) finish fermenting in the primary, cold crash in the mid-30's for 5-7 days. By the end of the cold crash, the beer is quite clear and the trub layer is more firm so that it's easy to not suck any of it up with the siphon. I keg almost everything and have a miniscule amount of gunk in the bottom of the keg. If you do this for bottled batches, it greatly reduces the amount of yeast sediment in the bottom of each bottle.

 

[forestbeekeeper]

You are fine going without it.

 

[GrogNerd]

my signature has a paraphrased quote from Charlie P. the original quote was somewhere along the lines of "if you want to secondary, do it and have a homebrew. if you can't be bothered, just have a homebrew"

 

[HarborTownBrewing]

Similar to what others have said, I've done secondary twice: once because I had the beer sit on oak, another time because I added coffee and chocolate.

The first time I did it, I didn't have an extra carboy, so I racked to my bottling bucket, cleaned out the fermenting bucket it had been in for a week or so, then racked it back to the fermenting bucket for secondary. It was just a pain and unnecessary, and you risk some infection with all the movement. But, it is an option to do it that way if you are dead-set on doing secondary but don't want to buy an extra carboy.

 

[Puddlethumper]

I will also jump in as a (modified) counterpoint to some of the advice above. Do you need to move the beer? Absolutely not. Should you move the beer? Perhaps, depending on why you are moving it and how your brewery is set up.

Many seem to be of the opinion that holding the beer on the yeast cake/trub for 3-6 weeks is a good thing. Very few professional brewers take this view. Pressure on the yeast cake is used as the reason but I would be very interested to learn the physics behind this view.

The longer you leave the beer on the yeast cake the more flavor impact that yeast will have on the beer. You may find the yeast flavor good or you may find it bad. Your call.

A secondary vessel is often used as a "settling tank" It allows you to get the beer off of the yeast cake and, at the same time, chill the beer to ~40F while cold crashing and in preparation for fining agents. Once the beer has chilled for a few days you can package and the beer will be clear and free of most of the trub.

 

[pfgonzo]

Puddlethumper: in the book Yeast, Chris White (White Labs) does talk a bit about the physics of why professional brewers dump their yeast cake so quickly. I highly recommend the book. Great read.

In short, the sheer size and volume of commercial conicals (hundreds, or thousands of barrels) create enough pressure on the settling yeast that the temp of the compressed yeast cake can be 20+ degrees over the liquid. This leads to much quicker autolysing and off flavors. Chris White says that for most homebrew applications, the volumes involved are too small to really have an impact.

For home brewers, it's really just a personal preference. I tend to do it for my kegged batches, because, as I mentioned in a previous post, I find doing so results in less trub/yeast in my keg. If I bottled, I wouldn't bother.

I do hear and acknowledge warnings about potentially oxidizing the beer with an additional transfer, or introducing a contaminant, but that's more of a boogeyman argument than anything. Good technique and sanitation make those nonissues.

 

[Puddlethumper]

Great post! Thanks for your comments.



Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[Tenkos]

I do this all from my phone, I got a bunch of things relevant to recipes and nothing constructive.
That said I asked these as a beginner, obviously new to the search options and to brewing. Why you would make a comment.that lacked anything that I could learn from is a mute point if all I wanted to do in the first place was learn.

 

[BigFloyd]

I do this all from my phone, I got a bunch of things relevant to recipes and nothing constructive.
That said I asked these as a beginner, obviously new to the search options and to brewing. Why you would make a comment.that lacked anything that I could learn from is a mute point if all I wanted to do in the first place was learn.

No worries. There are plenty of folks here willing to answer questions and help newer brewers like yourself learn. Don't be afraid to ask any question that comes to mind. The only ones that frustrate me just a bit are the ones that should have been asked before taking action, but weren't posed until later. They usually go something like - "I pitched yeast into 90 degree wort and it's now at 85 and fermenting like mad a day later, is it going to taste bad?"

It is indeed a PITA to try to run searches using the phone app. I'll only do them from the computer.

 

[Puddlethumper]

I do this all from my phone, I got a bunch of things relevant to recipes and nothing constructive.
That said I asked these as a beginner, obviously new to the search options and to brewing. Why you would make a comment.that lacked anything that I could learn from is a mute point if all I wanted to do in the first place was learn.

One of the things I learned early and fast about brewing is that there are actually several different ways to get to the same point. And the advocates of each route are often quite convinced that the route they have chosen is the only correct one.

In asking the question regarding the use of a secondary fermenter/secondary vessel you have entered an area of discussion containing a great deal of disagreement. Your question will, therefore, get a number of responses from people who honestly believe they are giving you sound advice but which may appear to be conflicting. My best advice to you at this point is to read and consider the views of everyone, do some research into the chemistry and physics of brewing, and then come to your own conclusions based on what makes sense to you.

But the good news in all of this is that regardless if you choose to use a secondary vessel or not you will probably end up with excellent beer. The real keys to success in brewing, IMO, are water, sanitation and temperature control during fermentation. Everything you do apart from these three points will add or detract something but probably won't make or break a batch of beer.

 

[BigFloyd]

The real keys to success in brewing, IMO, are water, sanitation and temperature control during fermentation.

+100. The only thing I'll add as one of the fundamental keys (that Puddlethumper certainly knows well, but forgot to mention) is pitching sufficient viable yeast cells into properly chilled wort.

 

[Puddlethumper]

+100. The only thing I'll add as one of the fundamental keys (that Puddlethumper certainly knows well, but forgot to mention) is pitching sufficient viable yeast cells into properly chilled wort.

Yup! Missed that critically important point. Thanks!

 

[brewprint]

This is an interesting thread. I have now brewed 4 5 gallon batches of beer. 2 I have bottled, 1 is in the secondary and 1 is in the primary as of last night.

All of the instructions from 3 different places recommend secondary fermentation. I have now done this on 3 of the batches. If I didn't; I would have to wait an excessive amount of time to bottle.

That's not the only reason I have done it. I was told that it clears up the beer but now I see that many don't agree that this is the case?

 

[pfgonzo]

Brewprint, a lot of instruction sets that come with kits haven't had their wording changed (or likely even thought about) in decades. The old school of thought was to get the beer off the yeast ASAP, but there's been a major step back from that.

Transferring the beer from one vessel to another does not speed the rate at which the particles drop. Time and temperature does.

 

[unionrdr]

Exactly so. Time & temp are the main factors in fermentation,clean up & settling out clear or slightly misty.

 

[Puddlethumper]

We were returning from Santa Barbara today and stopped at a microbrewery in Paso Robles. I had the pleasure of a personal tour by the one of the main brewers. During our conversation the subject of length of time in primary fermentation came up. His response was that they find they get a cleaner and brighter tasting product if they pull the beer off the yeast as soon as fermentation is complete, sometimes in as little as 4 days. I asked him about the concern of pressure on the yeast cake (1500 gal. conicals). His answer was, perhaps if they left the beer on the yeast long enough it might become a problem, but the main and only reason they moved the beer to their bright tank was to preserve that clean and bright flavor profile. Leaving it on the yeast longer than necessary tended to dull the flavor of the beer.

Others may take from this what they will. I found it very informative.

Cheers!

 

[estricklin]

I might do it if I'm using fruit or special additives, otherwise; no!

 

[fhk]

Good info! It is recommended by all of the supply companies I have been looking at, no doubt to sell more carboys!

 

[olotti]

So does this thought still stand of leaving in primary if dry hopping is involved in other words can I just ferment for 2 weeks then add the dry hops right to the primary. Or can I add the dry hops after fermentation has ceased even if its under the 2 week window which I'm sure it will be.

 

[unionrdr]

I dry hop when the beer's at FG,however long that takes. Besides letting it settle out clear or slightly misty before dry hopping one week. And that's a good clarification on the primary time issue. It makes you re-think using a secondary...

 

[AnOldUR]

Or can I add the dry hops after fermentation has ceased even if its under the 2 week window which I'm sure it will be.

Dry hopping on the yeast cake will give you a small, but noticeable change in the flavor profile of your finished beer. Not better, not worse. You will have to decide which way you prefer the taste.

 

[DPBISME]

Hello all. Im new to Brewing and new to the Forum so I thought I'd start a thread on a subject I didn't see too much on.

I was once given an IPA that had been in a plastic bucket for six months...

I kegged it and pressurized it and it was fine...

Since then I do as a few other have said.

• High Gravity beers stay in the fermenter for 4-6 weeks
  
• Low Gravity beers stay in the fermenter 2-3 weeks.

Now I do KEG,,, and they usually spend a while stored that way but I have never had a problem.

I brewed 150 galls plus last year... just so you get an idea of how much I do.

DPB

 

[pfgonzo]

We were returning from Santa Barbara today and stopped at a microbrewery in Paso Robles. I had the pleasure of a personal tour by the one of the main brewers. During our conversation the subject of length of time in primary fermentation came up. His response was that they find they get a cleaner and brighter tasting product if they pull the beer off the yeast as soon as fermentation is complete, sometimes in as little as 4 days. I asked him about the concern of pressure on the yeast cake (1500 gal. conicals). His answer was, perhaps if they left the beer on the yeast long enough it might become a problem, but the main and only reason they moved the beer to their bright tank was to preserve that clean and bright flavor profile. Leaving it on the yeast longer than necessary tended to dull the flavor of the beer.

Others may take from this what they will. I found it very informative.

Cheers!

I've recently had a very similar tour, and for my last 2-3 batches, I've been experimenting with shorter and shorter primary durations. With ales, I started taking daily gravity readings and noticed I was hitting FG after 3-4 days. Most recently, I did a double IPA that spent a total of 9 days in primary before I crash cooled and kegged with the dry hops. It's excellent.

One day I'll take the time to run two batches side by side, one that I keg after 6-7 days, and one I leave in primary for a month to compare flavor profiles.

Logically speaking, it does seem silly for new home brewers to be told to leave their beer on the yeast for 2+ weeks (I know several people who will proudly say they don't touch their beer for at least a month in primary), especially when commercial breweries turn their product around 3x faster than that.

Anything that makes the beer available for consumption faster (without an impact to quality) should be HIGHLY encouraged!! Now if you find your brew has diacetyl or some other off flavor that the yeast generally clean up, then you've moved too fast and should back off by a day or two.

Stop wasting time. Start drinking beer!

[edit] Bear in mind many beers, especially high gravity beers, benefit from some period of aging. This can be done in bulk in a secondary vessel (or keg), or in the bottles, but isn't impacted by the presence of yeast.

 

[patthebrewer]

Therefore I, and Jamil and White Labs and Wyeast Labs, do not recommend racking to a secondary fermenter for ANY ale, except when conducting an actual second fermentation, such as adding fruit or souring. Racking to prevent autolysis is not necessary, and therefore the risk of oxidation is completely avoidable. Even lagers do not require racking to a second fermenter before lagering. With the right pitching rate, using fresh healthy yeast, and proper aeration of the wort prior to pitching, the fermentation of the beer will be complete within 3-8 days (bigger = longer). This time period includes the secondary or conditioning phase of fermentation when the yeast clean up acetaldehyde and diacetyl. The real purpose of lagering a beer is to use the colder temperatures to encourage the yeast to flocculate and promote the precipitation and sedimentation of microparticles and haze.

So, the new rule of thumb: don’t rack a beer to a secondary, ever, unless you are going to conduct a secondary fermentation.

Further

I almost never use a secondary. I decide on a batch by batch basis if I need it and I alost never do. I have found no negative impact on beer quality by not using a secondary and it's a heck of a lot easier! Since you have a conical and can dump yeast and trub, I can't see why you'd even consider it.

Here's what John Palmer has to say about the subject......taken from the AHA's website on an ask the experts. He also references the two largest commercial yeast companies.

From my experience having brewed hundreds of batches, both pulling the beer off the yeast early, and leaving it longer. There really isn't any harm done to the beer by leaving it in peace for a few weeks. You really don't have to stress over getting it off in 7 days.