Is kettle caramelization bull?

[Bensiff]

I always hear about it. When it comes to Scottish/Scotch ales it seems almost doctrine that it will have kettle caramelization in its flavor profile. Greg Noonan says it's so in Scotch Ales. People go to great lengths to replicate this by boiling some of their first runnings down.

Here is my issue, most of the sugars present in wort don't caramelized until they hit well over 300f except for maybe fructose, but that only accounts for 2% of the sugars. Are Scottish boil kettles somehow capable of having a mass of liquid somehow reach well over the boiling point to create this so called caramel while the rest of the world apparently uses a completely different kettle that doesn't have this effect? Or perhaps kettle caramelization is a myth and the flavor is nothing more than a combination of the type of barley used, low hopping, yeast flavor characteristics, low fermentation temps, and low attenuation of the Scottish/Scotch style?

 

[Zepth]

Boiling down the first running will do this. It's also possible that the bottom of the kettle (if fire heated) can be beyond the temperature of the liquid it contains. Look at how many times LME gets scorched from sinking right down and chilling out at the bottom of the kettle.

Apparently pressure cookers work so well because the pressure changes boiling points. Doubt that it's a historical way to do anything except explode your kettle, but possible.

 

[NervousDad]

I would think that they reach 300 at the bottom of the kettle. I've brew many Strong Scotch Ales that came out much darker than than they should have. I also brew the first running for 15 minutes to a hard boil then add my second running into the kettle and boil for another 75 minutes.

 

[drainbamage]

I can't speak specifically to Scottish styles, but in switching from adding all LME at the beginning of the boil to late additions, I saw a big change in color and flavor. That would indicate that something is going on beyond just heating the extract.

(That and the times from my noob days where I had to scrub scorched LME off the bottom of the kettle.)

Have you ever tried using a digital thermometer to check the temp on the bottom of the kettle during your boil?

 

[ktblunden]

I'm pretty sure what's happening is maillard reaction rather than carmelization. Boiling the first runnings in a Scottish ale definitely has quite an impact on flavor and color.

 

[ImNoExpert]

I heat my priming sugar in a pyrex measuring cup in the microwave with water to dissolve the sugar. usually I just try to get it to boiling to make sure all the sugar is dissolved. I'm not real observant on what I set the microwave to to achieve the boil, but I do know that longer times produce a slightly more brown or yellowish colored liquid than shorter times.

I'm not sure if this is relevant, but it's been my observations.

 

[giraffe]

Caramelization may be a misnomer, but both boiling down the first runnings, or long, long boils, clearly darken the wort, and add a clear sticky toffee flavor.

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

I have always had caramelization every time I brew, and my wort darkens most of the time more than it should, its mostly cause by any strait sugar added and boiling for a long time. since for years I added everything all at once Ive realized that adding any DME, LME or sugar later in the boil helps keep that from happening, Ive done a bunch of experiments to prove this and now wait to add any at least to 30 minutes, most of the time 15

the longer you boil sugar the darker and sweeter it gets, I once boiled Demerara sugar for 90 minutes and the beer was way to sweet even at 12 percent alcohol

 

[peterj]

No I think caramelization is what's happening with these. Most of the time in brewing it is Maillard reactions that are darkening the wort during the boil, and I'm sure that's playing a role in Scotch ales as well. But by boiling the first runnings down to a syrup you are increasing the sugar concentration considerably. As you increase the concentration of sugar (or any solute) in a liquid the boiling point rises allowing the liquid to reach temperatures at which the sugars will be caramelized.

 

[eric19312]

Ive never brewed a scotch ale so can't comment on that style and what can be achieved boiling wort all the way down.

But below you have a side by side of wort boiled in 3 kettles for 60 minutes compared to wort boiled in one kettle for 140 minutes. The split wort was boiled to reach same OG in each kettle. The picture actually makes the one on the left (the 3 kettles for 60 minutes) batch look darker than the long boil wort. Trust me they were the same to the eye.



My belief is that kettle caramelization is BS when applied to wort which includes sufficient water to fully dissolve the sugars. What people think is kettle caramelization is really concentration as the water is evaporated off. The more you evaporate the greater the color change.

 

[giraffe]

Ive never brewed a scotch ale so can't comment on that style and what can be achieved boiling wort all the way down.

But below you have a side by side of wort boiled in 3 kettles for 60 minutes compared to wort boiled in one kettle for 140 minutes. The split wort was boiled to reach same OG in each kettle. The picture actually makes the one on the left (the 3 kettles for 60 minutes) batch look darker than the long boil wort. Trust me they were the same to the eye.



My belief is that kettle caramelization is BS when applied to wort which includes sufficient water to fully dissolve the sugars. What people think is kettle caramelization is really concentration as the water is evaporated off. The more you evaporate the greater the color change.

The only time Ive seen significant color change is with boils in the 6 hour + range. Ive made biere de gardes that way from just pils malt that come out with an srm around 12. Thats with topping off with water to maintain 5.5 gallons. I dont think you are going to be able to spot a difference with the difference between 60-140 min. Scottish brewers are said to do like 12 + hour boils, the boiling down to syrup is a homebrewer shortcut, I imagine it couldnt be done easily on commercial equipment.

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

boil sugar on the stove in a pan, you'll see what I mean, thats the way they make hard candy

 

[Weezy]

+1 on what ktblunden said

 

[Bensiff]

So we know that Maillard reactions will darken beer, especially with long boils and high gravities. But Noonan says normal length boils for Scottish ales so given the low gravity and normal boil length there should be no particularly great gain from maillards. Let's also take out extracts from the equation because they don't use that to make their beer. Boiling down wort until the sugars are concentrated enough to cause the boil point to change and thus make actual caramel is also something that commercial breweries do that I'm aware of. I'm also going to assume that since I can put a paper cup with water up to an open flame without it burning or scorching due to the water keeping the temperature down the same would occur in a boil kettle so I think that can be ruled out. On the flip side IIRC an intense boil increases Maillard reactions.

So, as best I can tell there is no actual caramelization occurring and the character is a product of the ingredients and/or Maillard reactions from an intensive boil. Then again, how many Scottish breweries still use direct flame?

 

[helibrewer]

You would certainly have to boil the volume down quite a bit for actual caramelization to happen. Caramelization is a pyrolysis reaction, the actual splitting of the sugar molecule with heat (sucrose -> glucose + fructose). Maillard reactions occur between amino acids and reducing sugars, but the sugar molecule remains intact

 

[Bensiff]

You would certainly have to boil the volume down quite a bit for actual caramelization to happen. Caramelization is a pyrolysis reaction, the actual splitting of the sugar molecule with heat (sucrose -> glucose + fructose). Maillard reactions occur between amino acids and reducing sugars, but the sugar molecule remains intact

Right. I just don't see any way for actual caramelization to occur. I think it's a myth. Perhaps started because of Noonan as he wrote that book a long time ago and Maillard reactions weren't much discussed in homebrew and that is the term he used. Just like the word peaty has convinced no shortage of folks to use peat malt when it isn't actually used and that is a yeast character, I believe people have been wasting no shortage of time and energy boiling wort to caramelize it when all they really need to do is use appropriate ingredients and process, nothing special.

 

[Weezy]

I thinks its people using the wrong terminology to describe a process or effect. Like 'secondaries'.

 

[peterj]

Oh I think I get what you're saying now. So actual Scottish brewers don't boil a portion of their wort down to a syrup to caramelize it? I always thought that was a historical technique and not an invention of modern homebrewers. I thought the homebrew shortcut was to use crystal malts and such to mimic the concentrated wort caramelization flavors. If that's the case then I would definitely agree with you that there is no actual caramelization going on. It would not be possible in regular gravity wort boils. Probably a misnomer like others have said for Maillard reactions from extended boil times.

 

[Bensiff]

Oh I think I get what you're saying now. So actual Scottish brewers don't boil a portion of their wort down to a syrup to caramelize it? I always thought that was a historical technique and not an invention of modern homebrewers. I thought the homebrew shortcut was to use crystal malts and such to mimic the concentrated wort caramelization flavors. If that's the case then I would definitely agree with you that there is no actual caramelization going on. It would not be possible in regular gravity wort boils. Probably a misnomer like others have said for Maillard reactions from extended boil times.

I have never read that that is part of their process. They brew pretty much like everyone else has historically. I believe boiling wort down is something homebrewers came up with to get that "kettle caramelization" effect because it is widely accepted that the Scots don't use crystal malts, that is a British thing.

 

[Cyclman]

If caramel is made from the sugars that exist in wort, and both are made by direct heating a pan, why couldn't wort be caramelized?

The only Wee Heavy I have made "cheated" using dark grains to mimic the caramelization- but I don't see why if we can make candi sugar we couldn't caramelize wort.

 

[Bensiff]

If caramel is made from the sugars that exist in wort, and both are made by direct heating a pan, why couldn't wort be caramelized?



The only Wee Heavy I have made "cheated" using dark grains to mimic the caramelization- but I don't see why if we can make candi sugar we couldn't caramelize wort.

It has to get to a certain temp before it caramelization can occur. Boiling wort is 212 degrees, so the sugars stay well below the caramelization temp. If you were to boil most of the water out of solution the temp would begin to rise and eventually the remaining sugars would caramelize. But, no beer is boiled to that point.

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

the truth is all wort is sugar and all sugar can caramelize, but the time it takes to achieve the flavor of Carmel is longer than 60 minutes and depends on a lot of factors, pot size, boil size, boil length, how rapid the boil/evaporation is, so the question in general can be debated a hundred different ways and all answers are correct. so speaking from experience, all wort no matter the type of beer or brand of grain can darken in color and sweeten with a long and rapid boil but achieving the flavor of Carmel, my answer is "unknown" lol

 

[VladOfTrub]

Kettle carmelization does occur, when equipment, the process and ingredients are designed to produce caramel.
Homebrewers confuse what they notice taking place, Malliard reaction with caramelization, while boiling wort for long periods. After Malliard occurs, the mash darkens and mellanoidin forms and a flavor/texture, character comes out of it.
Brewers using the English method are hard pressed, when it comes to producing mellanoidin. It takes a very long time to reach Malliard, using the English method, because only wort is boiled.
Mellanoidin is easily produced when the decoction method is used. In a decoction, Malliard and mellanoidin are formed during the time when the mash is at its thickest and before any enzymatic action takes place in the main mash. During the decoctions, depending on the style being brewed, the mash is boiled for different lengths of time. A decoction brewer will allow the first decoction to convert at alpha temps in order to create the sugar that works well when mellanoidin is desired. Then, the mash is boiled to the point Malliard is noticed and continued to be boiled until the brewer decides that enough mellanoidin has formed. The color and the scent coming from the boiling mash changes. The viscosity of the mash reduces. The reaction is very noticable in a decoction mash.
Brewers attempting to brew styles like world class Wee Heavy, RIS, Doppelbock, Lager, using the English method, cannot create in the wort what is needed to produce those styles of beer, no matter how long the wort is boiled and regardless of the saccharification temperature.

 

[Bensiff]

Kettle carmelization does occur, when equipment, the process and ingredients are designed to produce caramel.

Homebrewers confuse what they notice taking place, Malliard reaction with caramelization, while boiling wort for long periods. After Malliard occurs, the mash darkens and mellanoidin forms and a flavor/texture, character comes out of it.

Brewers using the English method are hard pressed, when it comes to producing mellanoidin. It takes a very long time to reach Malliard, using the English method, because only wort is boiled.

Mellanoidin is easily produced when the decoction method is used. In a decoction, Malliard and mellanoidin are formed during the time when the mash is at its thickest and before any enzymatic action takes place in the main mash. During the decoctions, depending on the style being brewed, the mash is boiled for different lengths of time. A decoction brewer will allow the first decoction to convert at alpha temps in order to create the sugar that works well when mellanoidin is desired. Then, the mash is boiled to the point Malliard is noticed and continued to be boiled until the brewer decides that enough mellanoidin has formed. The color and the scent coming from the boiling mash changes. The viscosity of the mash reduces. The reaction is very noticable in a decoction mash.

Brewers attempting to brew styles like world class Wee Heavy, RIS, Doppelbock, Lager, using the English method, cannot create in the wort what is needed to produce those styles of beer, no matter how long the wort is boiled and regardless of the saccharification temperature.

Can you show anywhere in brewing that it is common practice to produce caramel from the wort? I have never come across it except for homebrewers boiling down some of their first runnings. Or are you saying this as a generalization, that kettle caramelization can occur if intended such as what homebrewers do? Either way, the point is that classic styles do not caramelize the sugars in the wort as far as I have ever read.

Further you suggest a world class RIS cannot be produced using English brewing methods when it is an English style. More so, based on what you said, it would appear you are saying a decoction is needed for Maillard reactions to occur and you can't have a beer like a wee heavy be proper without Maillard reactions, however I have never come across any information suggesting the Scott's utilize decoction mashing methods. Finally, anyone who has conducted a long boil knows the SRM is darker than it should be, this is from Maillard reactions.

 

[pdxal]

I always hear about it. When it comes to Scottish/Scotch ales it seems almost doctrine that it will have kettle caramelization in its flavor profile. Greg Noonan says it's so in Scotch Ales. People go to great lengths to replicate this by boiling some of their first runnings down.

Here is my issue, most of the sugars present in wort don't caramelized until they hit well over 300f except for maybe fructose, but that only accounts for 2% of the sugars. Are Scottish boil kettles somehow capable of having a mass of liquid somehow reach well over the boiling point to create this so called caramel while the rest of the world apparently uses a completely different kettle that doesn't have this effect? Or perhaps kettle caramelization is a myth and the flavor is nothing more than a combination of the type of barley used, low hopping, yeast flavor characteristics, low fermentation temps, and low attenuation of the Scottish/Scotch style?

Granted, stirring the pot a little to produce a debate.
We can debate this endlessly. In my opinion the majority of what people claim are caramelization flavors are actually Maillard reaction flavors. Certainly, though, at least some caramelization occurs on the bottom of a very hot boiling pot/kettle/copper.
Regardless, if someone produces caramel flavors with whatever reaction, who cares? As long as the desired flavor is achieved, caramelization or Maillard reaction isn't important.