Characterizing Crystal Malts - Caramel, Burnt Sugar, Raisins vs Lovibond?

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I've been tinkering with my recipes and which crystal malts were used. I've used it in the 40L (Crystal Light) range aiming for caramel, 60L (Medium) for fruitiness, 120 (Dark) for raisin type flavors, and so on. I've come to realize lately, should have known but was a little surprised, that some of the higher roast levels impart... I'd call it toastiness, perhaps graininess, almost rye flavors. And not toasty like Biscuit or Victory but more like (slightly) burnt bread.

I've been reading info from the various maltsters as well, for example: Our Malts Archive - Simpsons Malt

I'm wondering if I could get a discussion going on what the more experienced homebrewers here are getting out of these various malts? Do you get caramel down low, and if so at what range does it quit and become something else? What range do you get fruit? Burnt bread or similar? Burnt sugar or raisins?

 

[AlexKay]

I use UK crystal pretty much exclusively. Caramel, toffee, and rum-raisin; more the former for light, more the latter for dark. Fewer options is a feature, not a bug; who can tell the difference between 20L and 30L anyway?

And then there's Simpson's DRC (dark crystal rum-raisin, plus toast-roast without any roast astringency). And crystal rye.

 

[Jack Arandir]

I'm the wrong person to answer this because I almost completely stopped using crystal malts altogether. The last batch I brewed with crystal was 11 batches ago, an English bitter with 3% crystal 45 and 3% carahell. Oddly, it tasted exactly like Fruit Loops.

In my mind, crystal is good for bulking up the body of an otherwise thin beer, such as a bitter, mild, or light beer. It ticks up FG a point or two and gives that sweetness and mouthfeel to prevent a beer from tasting watery.

To my taste, I don't like anything above crystal 45. 60 gets into that grey zone of oxidation, and 120 just tastes odd to me -- prunes and old fruit. I've used Special B in quadrupels, but I was never happy with the flavor -- raisins and cooked cherries. Carahell, carapils, and the light caramels can be tasty, but I found a solid pilsner base malt is better. But whatever you choose, good luck and cheers!

 

[MrClint]

@tracer bullet I like what you are putting down. I'm on a quest to get the most bang for the buck by narrowing down choices and focusing on the end result. Right now I use crystal 20 in my pale ale and 120 for brown ale, but I'm not really sure how to tell what these crystals actually bring to the table in a tangible way (that I can taste).

For my pale ale I've started splitting the crystal 20 bill in half with Aromatic Munich 20l and I think I like the maltier aspects that it brings (I don't know whatever else it brings, but I like it). When it comes to the brown ale I can't tell where the honey malt and crystal 120 begins or ends. We have SMaSH brews to isolate malts and hops but not much to go on with isolating crystal malts (as far as I can tell).

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Do you get caramel down low, and if so at what range does it quit and become something else? What range do you get fruit? Burnt bread or similar? Burnt sugar or raisins?

A number of years ago, local home brew club did a "hot steep" (link) across a range of American and British malts. My take away was that the flavors wheels the manufacturers provide is accurate.

Beyond that, I tend to get "harsh zone" (link) burnt flavors with some (but not all) crystal in the 80-120 range. Simpsons DRC seems to be an exception.

And then there's Simpson's DRC (dark crystal rum-raisin, plus toast-roast without any roast astringency). And crystal rye.

Do you have any experience with Great Western's Caramel Steam malt? (CB&B Magazine, Winter 2023, p 38)?

We have SMaSH brews to isolate malts and hops but not much to go on with isolating crystal malts (as far as I can tell).

Perhaps the "hot steep" (link) method. It's better to do it as a group activity - as one can sample a larger number of malts at the same time.

On an individual basis, I would probably start with just a pair of malts (say 60L and 120L; or 40L and 80L), then compare similar L malts across two maltsters.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

... following the side topic (oxidation), rather than the main topic (flavors)

that grey zone of oxidation

FWIW, with my last couple of batches of classic APAs / IPAs, I have been adding brewtan-b. Anecdotally, the results are promising.

Also, over time, it's plausible that maltsters may find ways to provide those same flavors without the oxidation.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

A number of years ago (before RedX became popular in forums), I found that reading American Amber Ale recipes gave me a wide of opinions on how to make a hop forward red beer.

If there's interest in including grain bills in the discussion, I can put together some observations. I'll probably keep the focus on crystal/roasted malts, but I'm not to concerned about side topics on RedX, Victory, ...

eta: classic American Brown Ales may be another way to explore crystal / roasted malts. And for understanding how to build layers of flavors with crystal / roasted malts, big Stout recipes would be interesting.

 

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Has anyone noticed the... somewhat rye flavor I think I'm getting out of the DRC? I've started to shy away from using it.

I have, in the past, done some taste testing but I certainly need to do so again. Little bits of each, crunched on plus steeped. I do recall a range above Medium and below DRC being somewhat of a toast (like - white bread turned very brown in a toaster) kind of way. I recall it going away at DRC levels but it'd make sense that it actually didn't. Or it can vary.