Is it lacto/pedio infection?

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

vaidas

Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2021
Messages
8
Reaction score
1
I brewed miunchen wheat beer and bottled one week ago. I used carb drops to each bottle for carbonisation. I checked bottles yesterday, all bottles have few mm white yeast cake on the bottom and it seems all of them also have white film on top. I put one bottle into fridge and tasted it few hours later, carbonation and head was still too weak, there were no strange smell, white film more or less was gone, but there were some of it in a glass, maybe some yeast got into glass. Taste was not sour, almost normal maybe just need more conditioning time, but there were some very little slick or viscous mouthfeel. Does it look like lacto/pedio infection? Should I throw it away?
 

Attachments

  • 20220209_101108.jpg
    20220209_101108.jpg
    1.8 MB · Views: 37
  • 20220209_101045.jpg
    20220209_101045.jpg
    1.7 MB · Views: 35
  • 20220209_101302.jpg
    20220209_101302.jpg
    1.1 MB · Views: 33

RM-MN

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
Nov 26, 2010
Messages
15,119
Reaction score
6,219
Location
Solway
Why would you throw away the bottled beer until you know if you have a problem? Nothing that can hurt you can survive in beer so it would just be a taste/mouthfeel that would develop that you might not like but at least let it have time to develop.
 

hotbeer

Opinionated Newb
HBT Supporter
Joined
Mar 10, 2021
Messages
1,440
Reaction score
1,028
What if it is?

It's still drinkable. See if you like the taste. If not dispose of how ever you care too. Change your sanitizer at least for the next batch even if it's just a soak in chlorine bleach and water.

Being a wheat beer it might just be tiny bubbles and something from the wheat that still hasn't gone to the bottom with any remaining yeast that are still working on your priming sugar.

One week after bottling is a little early to say anything for certain.
 

IslandLizard

Progressive Brewing
Staff member
Mod
HBT Supporter
Joined
Jan 9, 2013
Messages
19,603
Reaction score
9,903
Location
Pasadena, MD
Bottles need 2-4 weeks to condition/carb up.

You can check periodically, say every 5-7 days to see how they are coming along, by opening one. If they have a weird flavor or are putrid, best to discard the content.

Yeast itself does not make the bottles over-carb or explode. An abundance of fermentable sugars, do!
The white film on top could well be from yeast and trub floating while it's doing its work (carbing up).

And yes, an infection can contain bugs that could ferment more complex sugars and create overcarbing or even bottle bombs. So you should check periodically. And safely!

When in doubt, put the bottles in a closed box or so, in a safe area, with a deep tray underneath to catch any spillage if some may explode. Or use totes. When handling, do it carefully, wearing thick long (welder's) gloves and adequate face and body protection. Not kidding!

Did you clean and sanitize all the bottles well, before filling?
 

GrowleyMonster

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 28, 2019
Messages
382
Reaction score
276
Keep it for now. I have never been happy with a bottled beer that had less than two weeks conditioning and some of the bottles I am drinking now at the new house (we still live in the old house and this is where my kegerator is) have been in the bottle for over 6 months and they are pretty good drinkers. I think maybe your white stuff on top is just krausen? Watch out, when they are fully conditioned, they might geyser on you when you open them. Lift the cap sloooooooowly and let the pressure bleed off.

I could be wrong, but I suspect there is nothing wrong with your beer except that you opened one too early.
 
OP
OP
V

vaidas

Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2021
Messages
8
Reaction score
1
Bottles need 2-4 weeks to condition/carb up.

You can check periodically, say every 5-7 days to see how they are coming along, by opening one. If they have a weird flavor or are putrid, best to discard the content.

Yeast itself does not make the bottles over-carb or explode. An abundance of fermentable sugars, do!
The white film on top could well be from yeast and trub floating while it's doing its work (carbing up).

And yes, an infection can contain bugs that could ferment more complex sugars and create overcarbing or even bottle bombs. So you should check periodically. And safely!

When in doubt, put the bottles in a closed box or so, in a safe area, with a deep tray underneath to catch any spillage if some may explode. Or use totes. When handling, do it carefully, wearing thick long (welder's) gloves and adequate face and body protection. Not kidding!

Did you clean and sanitize all the bottles well, before filling?
I bought new bottles, I rinsed it with hot water and then rinsed starsan and put on bottling rack.
There were issue with carb drops, I put package into starsan sollution for soaking few mins, but when I opened package it had some water inside which means package was not tightly sealed. So a lot of carb drops was melted a little, I used desinficated spoon to tranfer carb drop from package to bottle, I was picking melting drops from little water around, since it was starsan sollution I hoped it is sterile. If drops was too much melted I put 2 small drops, but I am sure I didn't use too much sugar.
Fermentation ended with fg 1.010 (og 1.052), there were no signs of infection, krausen lasted almost 2 weeks and it went down few days before transfering to bottling bucket.
I will try to keep bottles at room temperature for one more week before testing one more bottle. But it doesn't look promising.
 

MaxStout

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
Mar 29, 2013
Messages
13,625
Reaction score
14,256
Location
Inside a Klein Bottle
Don't give up on them yet. Wait another couple weeks, then chill and sample another. If they do turn out to be infected, tell us more about your process to see where it may have come from--maybe we can help problem solve. If you had bought new bottles and rinsed and sanitized them, unlikely an infection would come from there.

That stuff floating on the surface of your bottled beers might be some trub.
 

IslandLizard

Progressive Brewing
Staff member
Mod
HBT Supporter
Joined
Jan 9, 2013
Messages
19,603
Reaction score
9,903
Location
Pasadena, MD
What @MaxStout said!^

Depending on their weight and ingredients, 1 carb drop may not give full carbonation, even in 12oz bottles. But 2 is too many.

Since you're already using a bottling bucket, next time just use sucrose (common table sugar) or dextrose (corn sugar) for carbonation. May save a few bucks too.
Weigh (or measure as precisely as you can) the correct amount for the desired carbonation level and bottle size. Completely dissolve the sugar in a cup (or 2) of hot water (e.g., microwave) and put into your empty, sanitized bottling bucket. Rack the beer on top of the sugar solution. Upon completion of the transfer, give it a gentle but thorough stir, without whipping air into it, making sure it's all mixed. Then fill your bottles. You've got much more control of carbonation level that way. ;)

I bought new bottles, I rinsed it with hot water
As long as the bottles were shiny clean and boxed with a well covering lid, yup, a hot rinse and sanitation should suffice. If dirty or dusty, they should be cleaned first.
 
OP
OP
V

vaidas

Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2021
Messages
8
Reaction score
1
I checked bottles closer, it seems bottles are not clear and have something like bacterial colony. I know wheat beer shouldn't be clear, but clump seems connected and it floats like jellyfish 😁 it does not fall down even when refrigerated.
First time I see such jellyfish floating in a bottle. Maybe someone knows what is it? Is it bacteria, or just some grain, hop, protein particles? It is strange that it keeps floating even when bottle is cold.
I will try to taste it anyway, but it would be great to know what is it
 

Attachments

  • 20220212_033431.jpg
    20220212_033431.jpg
    1.9 MB · Views: 20
  • 20220212_033507.jpg
    20220212_033507.jpg
    2 MB · Views: 20
  • 20220212_033719.jpg
    20220212_033719.jpg
    1.1 MB · Views: 20

hotbeer

Opinionated Newb
HBT Supporter
Joined
Mar 10, 2021
Messages
1,440
Reaction score
1,028
Probably could be any of the things you mentioned. Not sure you'll know for sure unless you have the sample analyzed. However if these were bottled at the first of the month, you are way too early worrying about them. IMO.

Naturally carbonating your beer is just another fermentation cycle. So things will go murky till the yeast have done the stuff they want to do. I'd wait till midweek or whenever is 2 weeks after bottling for you and then pop two in the fridge. A murky one and a clearer one if you have them. Then wait another 2 days and then open them, pour into glasses, look at and taste them. See if you give yourself a passing grade.

If you noticed, I have a thread in another section about my experience the same day you made your OP.

I think you jinxed me! :rock:


If it is infection, I don't know anything you can do about it. It'll either be an infection that tastes good still, or more likely one that tastes bad or destroys any flavors you wanted. The only real cure TMK is to do better cleaning and sanitation on your next batch.
 
OP
OP
V

vaidas

Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2021
Messages
8
Reaction score
1
Probably could be any of the things you mentioned. Not sure you'll know for sure unless you have the sample analyzed. However if these were bottled at the first of the month, you are way too early worrying about them. IMO.

Naturally carbonating your beer is just another fermentation cycle. So things will go murky till the yeast have done the stuff they want to do. I'd wait till midweek or whenever is 2 weeks after bottling for you and then pop two in the fridge. A murky one and a clearer one if you have them. Then wait another 2 days and then open them, pour into glasses, look at and taste them. See if you give yourself a passing grade.

If you noticed, I have a thread in another section about my experience the same day you made your OP.

I think you jinxed me! :rock:


If it is infection, I don't know anything you can do about it. It'll either be an infection that tastes good still, or more likely one that tastes bad or destroys any flavors you wanted. The only real cure TMK is to do better cleaning and sanitation on your next batch.
I have the same situation. 10 days after bottling I put 2 beer bottles into frige refrigerator. One bottle was coudy, other was clear, but after I took it out from refrigirator both were cloudy. Beer is clearly infected, carbobation was not yet too high, but it have sour smell and taste. I waited until beer will get up to room temperature to check it's gravity and it was 10.008 (FG was 10.010). So I won't wait until infection will eat all sugar, I will dump all bottles today.
I think I got infection due to not sealed carb drops packages, probably some bacteries managed to thrive there before bottling day. I always taste sample after FG reading and it was really great taste, I expected great beer and nice taste. When I tasted beer 5-7 days after bottling it was still ok, but had some very little off taste. So I bet infection started in botte. I had two batches and 2 days before bottling this infected wheat beer I bottled dark ale which turned out fine, tomorrow it will be 2 weeks after bottling and I will move it to refrigerator. I used carb drops for dark ale too, but package was well sealed. I will try to boil required sugar amount in water and put it in secondery before transfering beer from primary.
I red very good reviews about this wheat beer recipe, but sadly I won't be able to taste it 😁 infection kills motivation to brew again when it is needed to dump out all treasure after hard work, but I will try to brew something interesting soon again 😁 floating "jellyfish" and cloudy beer might be sign of infection
 

hotbeer

Opinionated Newb
HBT Supporter
Joined
Mar 10, 2021
Messages
1,440
Reaction score
1,028
Interestingly the batch I brewed about a year ago where every bottle was a gusher was also a wheat beer. At that time I didn't think it was infection as the taste wasn't bad. I wound up drinking them all. Or at least what was left after they stopped foaming. They also went flat very quick after they stopped foaming. Might well have been infection in all of them though. The foam I remember being a finer bubbled foam that the larger bubbles in the foam from these three recent bottles.

Be sure to pour it into something so you can identify this "jelly fish". I'm thinking it's just the yeast and stuff in the beer that are reflecting light back at you and it's not homogenous throughout the bottle.

I brew 1 to 1½ gallon batches for the fermenter. It's not a big issue to throw away a batch. I almost always have several fermenters going a week to ten days apart till I get too many bottles to store. Then I might be a week or two with nothing fermenting.

But if you have a lot of friends tossing down your beer, then 5 or more gallons might be pretty much a requirement.
 
OP
OP
V

vaidas

Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2021
Messages
8
Reaction score
1
I will try to investigate what that jelly fish is.

What kind of brewing system do you use for 1 gallon batches?
 

hotbeer

Opinionated Newb
HBT Supporter
Joined
Mar 10, 2021
Messages
1,440
Reaction score
1,028
What kind of brewing system do you use for 1 gallon batches?
Mostly stuff I already had for the kitchen. I was using some stretchy hop socks for the 2 lbs or so of grain that did the not quite a gallon to the fermenter batches. I mashed in just some large dutch oven pots I use for cooking other foods.

For the boil, it all goes into a 2½ gallon stock pot which is overkill. And is chilled with a coil of 3/8ths copper tube that can be bought cheaply at the big box building suppliers relatively inexpensive and just tightened up the coil and bent the ends to stick out and hang over the edge of the kettle.

The fermenters use to be some 1 gallon glass jugs from back in the days when apple juice came in 1 gallon glass jars. However I've retired them and now mainly use some flip top 5 liter jars that let me get a tad more than a gallon and have headspace. I had to drill some holes in their glass tops for the blow of tubes and/or stoppers to fit. I used a abrasive hole saw and slow turning drill press with a water bath to make the holes. And a lot of caution, gloves and other things to protect me just in case they broke. Glass is more than razor sharp when it breaks and I've witnessed several family members get cut. So I've somewhat learned to fear it and be careful.... Never try to catch a falling glass. Just let it break.

The one gallon plastic jugs the water I use for beer comes in would probably be good enough fermenters. drill a hole in the cap and add airlock or tubing. Throw away after bottling. But the glass and plastic jugs would be hard to put a spigot in the side, so you have to siphon. I've gotten tired of siphoning, or at least tired of the pitfalls that you have to address and watch for so I'm looking for somethin else.

Maybe 3 gallon conical fermenters. I haven't quite resolved myself about the idea of not seeing my beer ferment. But I think I can get over it.


TMI?
 
Last edited:

IslandLizard

Progressive Brewing
Staff member
Mod
HBT Supporter
Joined
Jan 9, 2013
Messages
19,603
Reaction score
9,903
Location
Pasadena, MD
I think I got infection due to not sealed carb drops packages,
It's possible, but not likely...
So I bet infection started in botte.
That's what we all think, yes.

But you said those bottles were not scrubbed inside, only rinsed with hot water.

Next time definitely scrub those bottles on the inside with a bottle brush, hot water and some detergent (OxiClean or cheaper, Washing Soda (=Sodium Carbonate), will suffice). Rinse well a few times to remove all traces of the detergent, then sanitize to prepare them for filling with "pre-primed" beer from your bottling bucket.

I will try to boil required sugar amount in water and put it in secondery before transfering beer from primary.
"put it in secondery" Do you mean bottling bucket?

And yes, please, boil your measured amount of sugar in some water, enough to dissolve it, without it being thick and syrupy. If it were thick and syrupy it would make it much harder to dissolve into your (cold) beer.

Do not use secondaries, they're not needed. They're a main cause of oxidation and infection, while they don't cure anything (better said, there's nothing to cure).
Just leave the beer in your (primary) fermenter, give it 2 weeks before even taking a gravity/taste sample. The beer should be clear or a bit hazy by then with a layer of trub and yeast on the bottom.

If your beer is done (final gravity is as expected*), rack the clear beer into a bottling bucket leaving the trub and yeast on the bottom.
  1. Don't stick the siphon all the way on the bottom, in the middle of the trub. Keep it well above the trub.
  2. Lower it as the beer level drops.
  3. Toward the end of the transfer, tip/tilt the bucket slowly, to keep the well you're siphoning from as deep as possible.
  4. When you start sucking up trub stop the transfer.
* If in doubt take 2 gravity readings, 3-5 days apart. If they match, and are close your expected final gravity, the beer is done fermenting. Ready to bottle.
 
Top