Is GFCI really needed?

[birzzz]

Hi,

I am putting together my electric brewing system and now I'm looking at the need for a GFCI circuit in the setup. I have asked my electrician and he said it wasn't really needed since everything is grounded in the setup. Pumps, kettle and HLT. I see a lot of thread stating that it is imperative to have GFCI, but I am having a hard time finding a real reason for it in a ebrew setup. Copper wire wins hands down to wet human skin to create a circuit to ground. Can anyone explain to me why would I need a GFCI?

Thanks

 

[passedpawn]

If you're assuming that the grounded containers will cause your circuit breaker to trip, don't count on that. It would take a hard fault and 30A (or whatever your breaker is rated at) to trip, and it's quite possible that the fault won't do that. I'll bet if you plug in a hair dryer and toss it in your full tub it won't trip the ckt breaker. At that point, you have a live pot with no indication of trouble. When you touch the pot, you'll know though. With the GFCI, the same soft fault would trip it - only takes about 0.01 amps to ground. It is said that breakers save your house, not your life. That's exactly true.

I brew with an electric system, outdoors, barefoot, next to a pool. I'm taking no chances. I bought the GFCI breaker online and put it in the breaker box. Worth every penny for the peace of mind.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

You can’t go wrong with a 4-wire GFCI when electric brewing.

 

[TechFanMD]

I would look for a different electrician.

Aside from the excellent points made above, you're dealing with a lot of water here, and a spill just the right way could make you a pretty nice path to ground. Also, you're counting on those ground connections all of the way through the circuit to never fail (even partially, where the resistance on the ground may be high for some reason), and that all of the cord insulators will always be in like new condition. The GFCI trips fast enough to save your life, the circuit breakers do not.

 

[mongoose33]

If you--and everything else--works as it should, you'll never need a GFCI.

Can you guarantee that? More to the point, would you bet your life on that?

I won't. And yeah, it costs. Funeral expenses are even more costly.

 

[mongoose33]

If you're assuming that the grounded containers will cause your circuit breaker to trip, don't count on that. It would take a hard fault and 30A (or whatever your breaker is rated at) to trip, and it's quite possible that the fault won't do that. I'll bet if you plug in a hair dryer and toss it in your full tub it won't trip the ckt breaker. At that point, you have a live pot with no indication of trouble. When you touch the pot, you'll know though. With the GFCI, the same soft fault would trip it - only takes about 0.01 amps to ground. It is said that breakers save your house, not your life. That's exactly true.

I brew with an electric system, outdoors, barefoot, next to a pool. I'm taking no chances. I bought the breaker online and put it in the breaker box. Worth every penny for the peace of mind.

You had me until "barefoot." Please don't tell us the name of your setup is "Toe-jam Brewing."

 

[passedpawn]

You had me until "barefoot." Please don't tell us the name of your setup is "Toe-jam Brewing."

It's still in the 80's here. Shoes not required. Don't worry, I don't stir the pot with my feet.

 

[mirthfuldragon]

I have asked my electrician and he said it wasn't really needed [...] but I am having a hard time finding a real reason for it in a ebrew setup

Your electrician may be correct in that the building code in your area may not require it. Different areas adopt different years of the NEC code and update them sporadically. For example, I live in Cook County (greater Chicago area), and all our wiring must be copper and must be in EMT conduit. You'll find a lot of aluminum Romex or armorcable installed all over this country, all of which is illegal where I live. Similarly, the GFCI requirements have crept upwards over the last few decades. Dishwashers were added in 2014.

Code is the minimum, not the best practice. Hopefully you'll never need it and never trip it, but the first time you need and and don't have it . . . Ultimately it is a question of risk management. Personally, I wear a helmet on my motorcycle and my bicycle, I wear steel toe boots when working in the garage or mowing (and have a nice scar on my foot from when I got unlucky/lucky when not wearing steel toe boots), and my electric setup will have a GFCI. A $100 breaker that keeps me safe against a low-risk but high-danger threat is a worthwhile investment.

 

[kevin58]

Could you use one of those short extension cords with the in-line GFCI?

 

[Vale71]

Hi,

I am putting together my electric brewing system and now I'm looking at the need for a GFCI circuit in the setup. I have asked my electrician and he said it wasn't really needed since everything is grounded in the setup. Pumps, kettle and HLT. I see a lot of thread stating that it is imperative to have GFCI, but I am having a hard time finding a real reason for it in a ebrew setup. Copper wire wins hands down to wet human skin to create a circuit to ground. Can anyone explain to me why would I need a GFCI?

Thanks

You'll need it for all those possible cases where current will choose to go through you and kill you instead of going through ground. This should of course never happen, assuming faults never ever happen too.
Do you check your ground connection every time before you start brewing? Do you even know how to do that? What if a wire has come loose and there is no ground connection and then later some insulation wears down and you grab something and then a second later your heart stops... Happens more often that one would think.

 

[birzzz]

I would look for a different electrician.

Aside from the excellent points made above, you're dealing with a lot of water here, and a spill just the right way could make you a pretty nice path to ground. Also, you're counting on those ground connections all of the way through the circuit to never fail (even partially, where the resistance on the ground may be high for some reason), and that all of the cord insulators will always be in like new condition. The GFCI trips fast enough to save your life, the circuit breakers do not.

Copper is around 50 millions time more conductive than water, human skin, blood. In my understanding, electricity will always take the easiest path to ground. If everything is properly grounded, I can't see a realistic scenario where a GFCI would be a life saver. Don't hesitate to prove me wrong, that's what I'm looking for by posting this.

Thx

 

[Yooper]

Water and electricity in an often-wet environment? I'm definitely NOT an electrician but I would never have built my indoor electric brewery without a GFCI. A spa panel was a quick and easy addition, and a less expensive way to do it.

 

[Vale71]

Copper is around 50 millions time more conductive than water, human skin, blood. In my understanding, electricity will always take the easiest path to ground. If everything is properly grounded, I can't see a realistic scenario where a GFCI would be a life saver. Don't hesitate to prove me wrong, that's what I'm looking for by posting this.

Thx

Here is a realistic scenario. You plug in an extension cord which is now live. You go plug something in the cord but manage to put your finger in the wrong spot at the worst possible time and touch a contactor as it goes live too. The ground connection does not even come into play, you are now the only ground connection and if nothing stops current from flowing through your body you will die.
I managed to do just that way back when, luckily I managed to bridge across both contactors with my index finger and got away with a big scare and some burns on the tip of my finger (I still have the scars as a reminder). GFCIs where not mandatory in my country at that time (the '70s), had the current gone through my body instead of just my finger I would have lived a full six years instead of 47 (and counting)...

 

[TechFanMD]

Copper is around 50 millions time more conductive than water, human skin, blood. In my understanding, electricity will always take the easiest path to ground. If everything is properly grounded, I can't see a realistic scenario where a GFCI would be a life saver. Don't hesitate to prove me wrong, that's what I'm looking for by posting this.

Thx

Copper is conductive, much more so than you are. That said, that copper is has connections at the breaker, the outlet, sometimes in the plug, and again inside of the appliance. The outlet itself is a connection. Any of those can have higher resistance (poor connection) immediately or over time. Also, depending on what gets wet and where water is.....you may be the only path to ground - just because the ground line is less conductive does not mean it is even in the 'circuit' when there is an issue depending on what happens. Your body with wet hands is only 500 ohms or so from hand to hand.

If water creates a path from Line to the chassis, the breaker probably won't open. You might not get shocked, as long as you have higher resistance than whatever the path to ground is. A GFCI would trip in this condition.

Notice that hot tubs are connected with GFCI breakers? They have the pump and heater grounded too. It is for added protection for very similar reasons.

If any electricity gets where it shouldn't be.....no matter how unlikely it seems right now that this could happen, the GFCI will protect you.

 

[shoengine]

Copper is around 50 millions time more conductive than water, human skin, blood. In my understanding, electricity will always take the easiest path to ground. If everything is properly grounded, I can't see a realistic scenario where a GFCI would be a life saver. Don't hesitate to prove me wrong, that's what I'm looking for by posting this.

Thx

(Emphasis mine)

How about you prove you aren't the shortest path to ground? I'll wait. But really what it comes to is safety factors. We don't design airplanes with zero redundancy because a culmination of factors can cause unintended results. GFCI is a safety factor for wet areas because water increases the potential of a human being the shortest path to ground. You want to climb without a rope? Go for it. I'd be belayed, thank you very much. Garage? 50A GFI. Kitchen, bath, laundry and outside? 20A GFI. Heck, in our municipality, code requires AFI in all common rooms. I probably have $600 in breakers in my panel. If I cheaped out and the kids or wife got bit, I'd feel pretty bad.

For what it is worth, water itself isn't conductive, it is an insulator. It is the disolved minerals in the water (https://www.lenntech.com/applications/ultrapure/conductivity/water-conductivity.htm) that allow current to pass through. Skin is also a very lousy conductor, but a large enough current will absolutely need to find a way to ground, whether it is from one hand to the other across your heart, possibly causing internal burns or fibrillation, or going through your feet. Blood is just water with a bunch of dissolved minerals and gasses in it.

 

[birzzz]

Thanks for all input.

I've stumbled on this thread that describe with more eloquence what I'm trying to say

https://www.canadianhomebrewers.com/viewtopic.php?t=3824

But I understand all of your points. It is added safety in case something is not operating as it should.

Thanks for all your answers.

 

[Rodent]

funny thing about GFCI (and other safety type devices) is that they're almost always unnecessary ... until that one time that they aren't

 

[Nyalex]

It sounds a lot like you've already decided you aren't getting a GFCI, and are looking to justify that decision after the fact.

I built my own electric brew rig, and I bought a spa panel and installed it with my brew rig. I've had it for two years. Everything has worked fine until my last brew.

The GFCI would trip randomly, it happened 3 times during my mash and boil. I checked all of my wiring, couldn't find anything wrong. Eventually, I realized that I had plugged my boil kettle into my brew rig (4 prong plug), but I hadn't fully seated the plug and twisted it to lock into place. Every so often some sub atomic anomaly would create a difference between the power in and power out, and would trip the GFCI. Maybe it was a minute increase in resistance because there wasn't good contact between the prong of the plug and the outlet. Maybe, if left un-noticed, it would have started arcing every so often inside the outlet, damaging the prong and increasing the resistance of it. Probably nothing would have happened, it was a random fluke event. But I had great peace of mind knowing that the GFCI was working as intended. And to a greater point, everything may be properly grounded when you build it, but you bump the heating element moving the kettle, your dog bumps into the electrical cord, etc. There are plenty of ways for a system working as designed to all of a sudden, even for a fraction of a second, malfunction. I don't want to be stirring the wort when that happens.

 

[Lax coach]

funny thing about GFCI (and other safety type devices) is that they're almost always unnecessary ... until that one time that they aren't

Yup. I've only ever had a GFCI trip "in anger" once, and I was incredibly glad it was there. I was using an electric snowblower, and went far enough that I yanked the cord out of the outlet. Went back and plugged it in, and got a pretty eye-opening shock, right as the button popped out. My best guess is the outside of the plug had some water and salt on it, and created a convenient pathway to me. I, in turn, created a convenient path to ground.

Now it's important to put current into perspective. Electricity is potentially lethal in the 0.1-0.2 A range. Thanks to the GFCI, I got just a tiny fraction of that, and I still remember it vividly more than 20 years later.

in this situation, we're talking about an extremely low likelihood of experiencing 150-300 times the lethal current. I can't speak for the OP, but my life is definitely worth more than $78 to me.

I have homeowners and auto insurance too, and thus far most of those premiums have not provided any return. I'm totally ok with that.

 

[mongoose33]

Copper is around 50 millions time more conductive than water, human skin, blood. In my understanding, electricity will always take the easiest path to ground. If everything is properly grounded, I can't see a realistic scenario where a GFCI would be a life saver. Don't hesitate to prove me wrong, that's what I'm looking for by posting this.

Thx

You have all the convincing you should need. You used the operative word above, and I've highlighted it so it stands out.

@Vale71 explained why it's a must for most of us. You may find different rules work better for you...at least for a while.

 

[birzzz]

You have all the convincing you should need. You used the operative word above, and I've highlighted it so it stands out.

@Vale71 explained why it's a must for most of us. You may find different rules work better for you...at least for a while.

Enough, you guys convinced me, I'm getting my spa panel 50amp GFCI tomorrow. I got a deal for a used one, roughly 45$US

As they say, better safe than sorry [emoji4]

Thx!

 

[4of7]

Your electric guy might be right until he is not. it is your brewhouse, you should have not one but all the plugs gfci and the breakers ,,including your control panel..It is just part of the build

 

[Brewfreedom]

Possible stupid question. When I had my electrician wire up my 30amp in the garage I asked for GFCI on the breaker. Anyone know if this is what I'm looking at. Might need to give him a call back if not.

 

[passedpawn]

Possible stupid question. When I had my electrician wire up my 30amp in the garage I asked for GFCI on the breaker. Anyone know if this is what I'm looking at. Might need to give him a call back if not

That is not a GFCI breaker (insert the "I'm not an electrician" disclaimer here). Every GFCI breaker i've ever seen has a test button on it. What you have there is a standard 2-pole (240V) 30A breaker.

That one there only has the trip flag, which is a nice feature on a breaker, but has nothing to do with the GFCI.

 

[golfindia]

No way on earth I'd buy a used GFCI breaker. But hey, different strokes....

 

[Lax coach]

Possible stupid question. When I had my electrician wire up my 30amp in the garage I asked for GFCI on the breaker. Anyone know if this is what I'm looking at. Might need to give him a call back if not.

You have this breaker, which as passedpawn mentioned, is a standard breaker with a trip flag. I'm pretty sure this is the one you need.

All GFCI breakers will have a test button and a neutral "pigtail". You wouldn't see the latter unless you take the cover off the panel.

 

[Brewfreedom]

That is not a GFCI breaker (insert the "I'm not an electrician" disclaimer here). Every GFCI breaker i've ever seen has a test button on it. What you have there is a standard 2-pole (240V) 30A breaker.

That one there only has the trip flag, which is a nice feature on a breaker, but has nothing to do with the GFCI.

Yup. Emailing the electrician. Because I asked for GFCI and he knew what this was begin installed for.

 

[passedpawn]

You have this breaker, which as passedpawn mentioned, is a standard breaker with a trip flag. I'm pretty sure this is the one you need.

All GFCI breakers will have a test button and a neutral "pigtail". You wouldn't see the latter unless you take the cover off the panel.

That GFCI breaker you pointed to is a different type (BR) and might not fit where the CH was. I'd think the following would be the right one:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00ECKLKBM/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[Lax coach]

That GFCI breaker you pointed to is a different type (BR) and might not fit where the CH was. I'd think the following would be the right one:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00ECKLKBM/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

I think you're right. Ironically enough, that was the first one I looked at.

 

[lschiavo]

I'm glad you have decided to use a GFCI in your build. This statement is not entirely true though:

It is added safety in case something is not operating as it should.

It is true that GFCI is added safety. It is not true that it kicks in if something is not operating as it should with an otherwise unprotected circuit.

A circuit without GFCI protection can be wired perfectly but it is not designed to protect you from shock and possible death if you accidentally insert your body into the circuit. That protection is offered by an additional device called a GFCI.