Is Cider the fastest fermenting beverage there is?

[S-Met]

how much does juice quality really matters within reason.

Crap in = crap out. But its not really that straight forward.
Store juice is meant for drinking, not fermenting. What I mean is, the blend of Store juice is primarily sweet and lacking the bitter and sharp flavor profiles. You can compensate with specific additions, but its still just a polished turd. (I make polished turd cider, no judgements here.)

Traditional cider juice made from specific blends of cider apples would not likely taste very good as juice, but make a very deep and complex cider.

You can make really good simple cider, just recognize its limitations. Think of it like a box of franzia burgundy or granache as compared to a fine French wine. Both are wine, both drinkable. In a blind test many would actually enjoy the box wine. But it is very "simple" as compared to its well crafted cousin.

 

[applescrap]

Fast is the enemy of great.

I wanted to point out that you are my go to for all things cider. I also appreciate your love and dedication for the craft very much. Your help on my first cider and beyond has been amazing. I disagree with some of this common thought though. Fermentation temps for starters. It seems reasonable to think that drinking cider still reveals more than sweetened. But how one sweetens, I hypothesize could affect perception. And the fast is great. I have conceded that some beer and cider do benefit with age, even considerably in some cases. That said as for the basic brewing and fermentation and life in general, I disagree vehemently. Fast is great in almost everything I enjoy in life steak, real italian pizza, cars, athletes, musicians, cooks, builders, doers and makers. Gordon Ramsey, Emeril, all the iron chefs are fast, golf swings and pitchers, bbq and guitar players, speed has always been and will always be king.

 

[dmtaylor]

Is there a world class cider that I can buy in the store? If so, can you recommend one (or more) to me? I'd like to try one to get an idea as to what the target should be. In this cider realm, it's hard for me to aim at something that I've never experienced.

For instance, I once sampled a $1000 bottle of wine at a fancy wine tasting. It didn't even taste like wine! Well, not in the usual sense of wine that everyone is familliar with. It was completely different, and so that experience kinda blew my mind. Before that, I didn't even know that such a taste was possible from a "wine".

I've tasted >150 commercial ciders. The following are several world-class ones that I've tasted more than once, in random order.

Champlain Orchards Original Vermont Hard Cider
Domaine Dupont Etienne Dupont Cidre Bouché Brut de Normandie
Island Orchard Brut Apple Cider
Original Sin (the original, with no fancy ingredients or names)
Von Stiehl Schmiling Bros. Cider
Farnum Hill Semi-Dry Cider
ACE / California Cider Apple Hard Cider (the original only, without any crap in it)
Crispin Brown's Lane (LOVE this stuff)
Seattle Semi-Sweet

Notice that Angry Orchard, etc., do NOT make the cut. I think they've brought a good one or two examples to festivals but I can't remember what they were called. But anything that is highly commercial that you find on the shelf is garbage... except for that Brown's Lane (oh, yum...).

Cheers.

 

[dmtaylor]

You might also be interested in the opinions of experts. Try this link:

https://glintcap.org/results/

 

[applescrap]

Nice list. cant wait to try a few. Original sin black widow was the inspiration for daddy juice.

Went to that competition website. Enoyed that, thanks. Haha, its like a soccer game in todays world. Everyone gets a medal. I hope I can find that Haykins farm from colorado somewhere.

 

[S-Met]

Domaine Dupont Etienne Dupont Cidre Bouché Brut de Normandie is fantastic - know that it is a dry cider.

I haven't had Crispin Brown's lane, but I do like others by Crispin - Honey Crisp and Brut.

 

[dmtaylor]

Domaine Dupont Etienne Dupont Cidre Bouché Brut de Normandie is fantastic - know that it is a dry cider.

I haven't had Crispin Brown's lane, but I do like others by Crispin - Honey Crisp and Brut.

Crispin is alright for a mass-produced cider. We could do a whole lot worse.

 

[Maylar]

That said as for the basic brewing and fermentation and life in general, I disagree vehemently. Fast is great in almost everything I enjoy in life...<snip>.

We're talking about cider here my friend, not NASCAR. Fast has its place in life, but retaining the aromas and flavors of apples in our cider is not one of them.

... and low & slow is also king in the world of smoking BBQ

 

[Maylar]

Great info. useless to me as I can't guarantee 60 2 days in a row much less 50. I'm beginning to think those of us in warmer climates need to start doing our own yeast experiments and noting any differences. sometimes it sucks to live in paradise.

You're stuck between the proverbial rock and a hard place. Not only are you at the mercy of store bought juices, not being in apple country, but also rely on Mother Nature for temperature control. There is a solution for the latter - a small chest freezer with a Honeywell temp controller. Then you could use any yeast you want and set the ideal temp for it. But as a newcomer to the hobby that'd be tough to justify. Though you could always repurpose it as a meat freezer should you decide to abandon brewing.

There's also manual temp control - a water bath with ice packs around your fermentor. It'd need babysitting and constant maintenance, but it could be done.

 

[Blacksmith1]

The current plan is to empty out the barn shaped shed in the back yard, insulate the hell out of it, and add a wall shaker to cool it. hopefully by next year.

 

[NeverDie]

Chest freezers are cheap, so that's a great idea. But... can you set them to a high enough temperature, or do you have to use an inkbird to regulate it?

 

[Maylar]

An inkbird or equivalent is recommended. The freezer may not have the range you're looking for.

 

[applescrap]

We're talking about cider here my friend, not NASCAR. Fast has its place in life, but retaining the aromas and flavors of apples in our cider is not one of them.

... and low & slow is also king in the world of smoking BBQ

Haha ok, I will have accept that I dont know what I dont know. Ill give some more ciders of quality a try to get a better idea of what you are talking about. Am I wrong to assume for the discerning cider palate we are talking about dry ciders? This batch was fermented longer and colder in my little work room, and I do taste more apple flavor. I wonder if I just missed it before or if maybe one of them finished higher. Ill know by next batch. Once again appreciate your passion for the craft and willingness to help.

 

[NeverDie]

Haha ok, I will have accept that I dont know what I dont know. Ill give some more ciders of quality a try to get a better idea of what you are talking about. Am I wrong to assume for the discerning cider palate we are talking about dry ciders? This batch was fermented longer and colder in my little work room, and I do taste more apple flavor. I wonder if I just missed it before or if maybe one of them finished higher. Ill know by next batch. Once again appreciate your passion for the craft and willingness to help.

The way I look at it now, if you were to add pure ethanol to apple juice, you would get an immediate result that tastes like... apple juice. i.e. nothing special. So, these lengthy fermentations are about more than just making ethanol and removing sugar. They are apparently required to make the final result taste less like apple juice and more like something else. Why that has to happen slowly is beyond my understanding, but apparently that's just how it is.

 

[S-Met]

and low & slow is also king in the world of smoking

Good analogy. A strip steak gets high-heat and is done quickly for optimal taste. Short-ribs get babied and braised for hours, cook them fast and you don't have time to render the fat while cooking - poor flavor and texture.

 

[NeverDie]

read all 11 pages, then give it a go. in less than a week you'll have your answer. just let us know how it works

Well, I did a variant of it, although maybe the only similarity is that it is "done" (heavy quotation marks) in 5 days. I jacked the sugar level up to 29.5 Brix at the start, and now its back down to 15 (the starting value for the juice) after 5 days of fermenting using Red Star Premier Cuvee yeast at room temperature. That's what, an alcohol content of about 8.5%? So, on paper it's "done". How does it taste? Not that good really. Maybe I should have used brown sugar and cinnamon sticks, as called for in the original recipe. Or, maybe I just should have stuck to the original recipe entirely. Or, maybe the skeptics were right all along, and making something good in 5 days isn't really feasible. Well, it was an experiment. I learned some things that it's hard to only read about (like how it tastes, for instance).

Maybe I can use some of the wine cheats to tweak it into something more palatable. That's a whole other dimension to this that I haven't yet even begun to explore. At least for now I'm stopping the fermentation by putting it in the refrigerator until I decide what to do next with it.

 

[Maylar]

The way I look at it now, if you were to add pure ethanol to apple juice, you would get an immediate result that tastes like... apple juice. i.e. nothing special. So, these lengthy fermentations are about more than just making ethanol and removing sugar. They are apparently required to make the final result taste less like apple juice and more like something else. Why that has to happen slowly is beyond my understanding, but apparently that's just how it is.

A couple of things about that -

Fermenting apple juice changes it's flavor, body, and aroma. Hard cider needs some acid bite and tannin to be well balanced, and the juice that makes the best cider would need sharp and bittersharp apples that would be "spitters" to eat. Hard cider is not just alcohol and apple juice.

And the yeast has it's own nuances that become part of the overall result - be it esters, phenols, or whatever. Depending on the juice we're starting with we might want a yeast that adds fruity aromas, or one that reduces malic acid, or one that ferments cleanly and transparently to neither add or subtract from the apples.

And the behavior of yeast changes with temperature. You'll see references here calling EC-1118 a beast, or a sledgehammer. Very few people recommend it for cider, and most will say, "It blows the flavor and aroma right out the airlock". But as I noted before, if you run it at 50°F it's a whole different animal.

 

[S-Met]

Well, I did a variant of it, although maybe the only similarity is that it is "done" (heavy quotation marks) in 5 days. I jacked the sugar level up to 29.5 Brix at the start, and now its back down to 15 (the starting value for the juice) after 5 days of fermenting using Red Star Premier Cuvee yeast. That's what, an alcohol content of about 8.5%? So, on paper it's "done". How does it taste? Not that good really. Maybe I should have used brown sugar and cinnamon sticks, as called for in the original recipe. Or, maybe I just should have stuck to the original recipe entirely. Or, more likely, the skeptics were right all along. Well, it was an experiment. You win some you lose some.

Adding sugsr affects your arbitrary timeline. And sugar fermentation tasts significantly different than wort or juice.

That yeast should get you more than 12% abv so you probably aren't done yet. But that much sugar added will give you a hot alcohol taste. Age it for 2-3 years and it might become palatable.

 

[NeverDie]

And sugar fermentation tasts significantly different than wort or juice.

Interesting. Is there any way to describe how the sugar fermentation flavor differs from the other two (aside from the sugar that is)?

The next round of experiments, which I'm starting now, will start with just juice with no added sugar, and I'll let them ferment to completion. I'll be trying it with six different very small batches, each using a different yeast, so I can get a taste for how the different yeasts affect flavor.

 

[S-Met]

As part of your next experiment, do a sugar wash to compare. Sugar, water, yeast and yeast nutrients.
Look up instructions on this site for fermentation of sugar. Its a little tricky.

You really should spend some time reading some books on fermentation and dive more into this forum. Almost any question you can have has already been asked dozens of times, if not more.

 

[S-Met]

Interesting. Is there any way to describe how the sugar fermentation flavor differs from the other two (aside from the sugar that is)?

Or a a comparison, pour a shot of cheap white rum into 8oz of water and taste it. Then do the same thing with a scotch, bourbon, non sour mash whiskey and a decent brandy or cognac and compare.
Cheap Rum - sugar (some cheap may be corn based)
Whiskey/scotch malt based
Sour-mash malt with a unique flavor from the souring
Brandy is fruit based sugar.

Dropping a shot into a cup of still water will diffuse the flavors and let you taste some of the nuances of the spirit.

 

[Blacksmith1]

Dropping a shot into a cup of still water will diffuse the flavors

Blasphemy! Shame on you for leading him into the evils of dilution.

 

[canehdianman]

Cider ferments out much slower than beer, if you do it right. I can knock out an English ale in 36 hours with Windsor ale yeast. Ciders, on the other hand, take months.

*cough* ******** *cough*

 

[NeverDie]

At least for now I'm stopping the fermentation by putting it in the refrigerator until I decide what to do next with it.

LOL. That Red Star Premier Cuvee continues to ferment even in the refrigerator! Dang, what do I have to do, freeze it? I'd rather not nuke it with chemicals....

 

[NeverDie]

*cough* bullpoopy *cough*

Which part?

 

[NeverDie]

You really should spend some time reading some books on fermentation and dive more into this forum. Almost any question you can have has already been asked dozens of times, if not more.

Are there any books on fermentation that you find to be head and shoulders above the rest? I've started a short-list from an earlier forum recommendation, but those would be the ones I'd most want to read. i.e. not the wikipedia-ish version, but something immensely practical.

 

[Blacksmith1]

LOL. That Red Star Premier Cuvee continues to ferment even in the refrigerator! Dang, what do I have to do, freeze it? I'd rather not nuke it with chemicals....

First it may not be fermenting. It might just be releasing trapped CO2. 3 of my brews were bubbling away till I degassed them. then they went still.
if it is fermenting then place your carboy in a large stock pot with water at least half way up the bottle and raise the water temp to 180 or so and hold it there till you are sure the liquid in the bottle is the same temp for 10-15 min. Pasteurization!

[EDIT] Ok this isn't quite right, it was written from memory of reading this post https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/easy-stove-top-pasteurizing-with-pics.193295/

 

[Maylar]

Are there any books on fermentation that you find to be head and shoulders above the rest? I've started a short-list from an earlier forum recommendation, but those would be the ones I'd most want to read. i.e. not the wikipedia-ish version, but something immensely practical.

Yeast: The Practical Guide to Beer Fermentation by Chris White (founder of White Labs) gets high marks. While being beer oriented, the principles apply to anything fermented.

 

[dmtaylor]

Which part?

The part about him trolling uselessly.

 

[NeverDie]

Yeast: The Practical Guide to Beer Fermentation by Chris White (founder of White Labs) gets high marks. While being beer oriented, the principles apply to anything fermented.

Thanks. I ordered it.

I also found an interesting sounding book called "Speed Brewing" that I may order also: https://read.amazon.com/kp/embed?as...linkCode=kpe&ref_=cm_sw_r_kb_dp_RqroCbVK1N660