Is all grain ALOT better than extract?

[Soulive]

I'm not going to bad mouth extract because it has its place. I won't even rant about why I love AG brewing. I will say that an undeniable advantage to AG brewing is being able to control the fermentability of your wort. Every single AG batch I've made has been better than all the previous extract batches. I attribute that mostly to the fermentability...

 

[njnear76]

Ive made tons of great tasting and very drinkable extract beers that you could not tell were made from extract. I've made a variety of beers from super pale IPA's... down around 6-8 SRM, to big 10.5% belgian dark ales, to coffee stouts. They are pretty flexible if you use the right kind and add in appropriate amounts of specialty grains.

Your beer is pretty awesome. I always wondered.... Do you do full wort boils?

 

[njnear76]

Taste-wise AG will be roughly on par with steeping grains plus extract. This of course assumes that if you are using liquid extract, it is extremely fresh.

If you got the money, like the hobby, and have the storage space; I would invest in the equipment to do AG. I've done 2 of them already and it is extremely fun and easy.

I would read the AG section in howtobrew.com to get started. You can then try my directions if you like (modeled after howtobrew.com with advice from many users here).

 

[Beerthoven]

I have been brewing extract with steeping grains recipes and always pay a little extra to get quality ingredients. I am very intrigued by all grain brewing as it seems like the traditional way to experience brewing.

I read the all grain section in Papazians book and it just seems so involved and difficult to me? Maybe I am looking too much into it. The thing that I really wonder about is whether or not an all grain beer would be that much better?

Plenty of extract brewers make great beer, and plenty of AG brewers make crappy beer.

The main things that contribute to good beer are the same with extract and AG: Good sanitation, quality ingredients, proper aeration, proper yeast pitching rates, and fermentation temperature control. If you can do all those things with your extract beers, you will be making beer that is every bit as good as AG.

I think most AGers say their AG beers are better than extract beers. But I think this has more to do with the learning process than any inherent superiority of AG over extract. Most of us start out with extract. We often don't make very good beer because we are still learning about the all the things I listed above. By the time we are ready to go on to AG, we've started to figure out how to brew well. We drink our first AG beers and say "wow, this is so much better than my extract beers." Is it really the AG or is it that your brewing processes have improved at the same time?

I brew both AG and extract. I like them both. The main thing I like about AG is that it allows greater control over the recipe and wort characteristics than extract. Some recipes and styles are definately much better suited to AG than extract. The main thing I like about extract that I can do it inside on the stove on a weeknight, so its quicker and more convenient than AG.

Ditch the Papazian book and read "How to Brew". Palmer gives an easy, simple example of an AG brew day.

 

[cheezydemon]

My best beer ever was a Caramel Marzen PM with 6 lbs of dme. A close second was my AG Route 66 IPA.

The PM is the first recipe that was so farging good I am repeating it ingredient for ingredient.

AG is a pain in the butt. I have 3 young kids. I am not one of those jerks who comes home to my wife who has had a hard day with 3 kids and says "Honey, I am going to be busy for the next 4 hours. Watch the kids."

I don't have time for AG, and my PM beat out any of the AG's I've done. Easy choice until my kids grow up some more.

 

[Soulive]

My best beer ever was a Caramel Marzen PM with 6 lbs of dme. A close second was my AG Route 66 IPA.

The PM is the first recipe that was so farging good I am repeating it ingredient for ingredient.

AG is a pain in the butt. I have 3 young kids. I am not one of those jerks who comes home to my wife who has had a hard day with 3 kids and says "Honey, I am going to be busy for the next 4 hours. Watch the kids."

I don't have time for AG, and my PM beat out any of the AG's I've done. Easy choice until my kids grow up some more.

In my experience, PM brewing took maybe 30 minutes less than AG. How long does PM take you?

 

[ohiobrewtus]

I my opinion, there is certainly a taste difference between extract and AG. That's not to say that one can't make good beers using extract. I just know that my beers taste a whole lot better since I made the move to AG.

 

[cd2448]

Hi, I started with pure extract batches (2) then did a steep+extract (1) and now I'm doing partial mashes (5-6 batches so far). I find the taste of the PMs far superior to the earlier batches, but given that my whole technique has improved since then, could be a factor.

I wasn't planning to go AG until I can get a 10gallon setup, but someone picked up a small turkey fryer for me that they saw on clearance - so I'm going to have a go probably this weekend. Yet again my well-reasoned purchase of equipment (a 2gallon cooler for PMs) has proved a waste of money (luckily only $10) as I'll need to step it up for AG.

Oh, that and 20+lbs of LME in the fridge. I think there'll be a few partial mashes in my future after all!

 

[blacklab]

The thing that I really wonder about is whether or not an all grain beer would be that much better?

In my experience: Yes, it really will. Go for it! It's much easier than it sounds.

 

[BierMuncher]

Yes.

Like fresh squeezed orange juice is better than tang.
Like home made marinara sauce from home grown tomatoes is better than Ragu.
Like your Grandmas homemade chocolate chip cookies are better than Chips Ahoy.

It is not as difficult as you think. There is just a veil of the unknown right now. Read more. Learn more. Immerse yourself in all-grain. Be the grain.

Otherwise, there ain't no way in hell you're gonna get a beer to look like this:



And believe me, it tastes even better...

 

[BrewDey]

I've just done a few AGs, but it is a lot more enjoyable. I also think the beer tastes better. IMO the maltiness is much deeper. Like orange juice from concentrate vs. fresh squeezed.

Also, the science behind AG seems daunting-but it's really not. I've heard that with today's grains, there's not as much need to worry about protein rests, PH, etc. Also, from the boil on is when you need to be worried about sanitation-and messing up the beer. If you're comfortable with tending the boil and then getting it cooled and into a fermenter-the AG part is a breeze-it just adds time..and you don't need to worry about keeping everything germ free. It really is a blast, it's cheaper, and more fulfilling.

 

[ohiobrewtus]

I've just done a few AGs, but it is a lot more enjoyable. I also think the beer tastes better. IMO the maltiness is much deeper. Like orange juice from concentrate vs. fresh squeezed.

Also, the science behind AG seems daunting-but it's really not. I've heard that with today's grains, there's not as much need to worry about protein rests, PH, etc. Also, from the boil on is when you need to be worried about sanitation-and messing up the beer. If you're comfortable with tending the boil and then getting it cooled and into a fermenter-the AG part is a breeze-it just adds time..and you don't need to worry about keeping everything germ free. It really is a blast, it's cheaper, and more fulfilling.

These are some great points. I was pretty timid going into my first AG, but it's nowhere near as difficult as I thought it would be. 30 AG batches later and I still realy enjoy it. It takes a lot longer than doing extract, but that's what makes it enjoyable and engaging.

The science behind it is a bit overhyped if you ask me. I've never done anything other than a single infusion mash, I don't mash out, I batch sparge, I use my tap water and I'm able to make beer that I'm very pleased with.

Reading one of Kaiser's brew logs and all of the technical information can make AG seem like a daunting task for sure, but it's not. If you choose to, then you can go to the level that Kaiser does (sorry Kaiser, not picking on you, just using you as an example of someone who takes a very scientific approach to brewing - and that's a good thing). I'm still learning about new aspects of brewing all of the time and I'm sure that I'll expand into decoctions, extensive water conditioning and other areas at some point but for now I'm happy with my relatively simple AG processes.

 

[sirsloop]

Your beer is pretty awesome. I always wondered.... Do you do full wort boils?

Thanks! I mini-mashed the flanders sour, but every other brew has been steeping grains and 3 gallon extract boils, topped off with mountain fresh jersey tap water.

 

[sirsloop]

Yes.

Like fresh squeezed orange juice is better than tang.
Like home made marinara sauce from home grown tomatoes is better than Ragu.
Like your Grandmas homemade chocolate chip cookies are better than Chips Ahoy.

It is not as difficult as you think. There is just a veil of the unknown right now. Read more. Learn more. Immerse yourself in all-grain. Be the grain.

Otherwise, there ain't no way in hell you're gonna get a beer to look like this:

View attachment 4508

And believe me, it tastes even better...

I'll take a pic of my Extract Interceptor IPA tonight... I'd venture to say its that color if not lighter. Extra Pale extract is the hot setup.

 

[BierMuncher]

...The science behind it is a bit overhyped if you ask me...

Agreed.
Think of it like making a big batch of oatmeal using crushed barley malt.
Letting the oatmeal sit for an hour.
Draining off the sugar water that was created into a big pot.
Rinsing the oatmeal a few times to get all the sugar rinsed out.
Boiling the sugar water and adding some hops.
Chilling and adding yeast.
Come back in three weeks and bottle.

Not so complicated.

 

[Bobby_M]

Sloop definitily makes really good extract beers. His IPA I had last night was easily better then my AG IPA that I tasted side by side. I also put his Porter as a tie for first out of seven beers. For me, it's about comparing the relative quality of the beers that I make. I know for a fact that my AG beers have been better than the extracts. My biggest problem is that I'm too stubborn to brew someone else's tried and true recipe and tend to not do so well.

 

[BierMuncher]

...Sloop definitily makes really good extract beers...

That's a good point.

While the answer would generally be "yes", this should be caveated with "but depends on who's brewing..."

 

[ohiobrewtus]

That's a good point.

While the answer would generally be "yes", this should be caveated with "but depends on who's brewing..."

As is proven at NHC almost every year. A few extract only brews regularly make it to the second round of judging.

 

[cheezydemon]

In my experience, PM brewing took maybe 30 minutes less than AG. How long does PM take you?

I would say more like an hour difference, but the biggest difference comes in:not going outside, not getting out the burner, not waiting for 5 gallons to boil, not waiting for 5 gallons to cool.

Also the fact that I am inside, means that I can keep half an eye on the kids, I am just in the kitchen not out in the garage.

I guess it is not entirely a function of time, but you do have to count: pulling one car out of the garage, lighting the burner, possibly switching out tanks etc., as opposed to something not much more complicated than cooking soup on the stove.

 

[Soulive]

I would say more like an hour difference, but the biggest difference comes in:not going outside, not getting out the burner, not waiting for 5 gallons to boil, not waiting for 5 gallons to cool.

Also the fact that I am inside, means that I can keep half an eye on the kids, I am just in the kitchen not out in the garage.

I guess it is not entirely a function of time, but you do have to count: pulling one car out of the garage, lighting the burner, possibly switching out tanks etc., as opposed to something not much more complicated than cooking soup on the stove.

I can agree with the being inside aspect, but I don't find it much quicker than AG. One big reason is that my stove takes much longer than my burner...

 

[IowaStateFan]

I'm going to go against the flow here. I recently switched to AG and am having a very hard time getting my system dialed in. As a result, my AG beers have generally been inferior to my extract brews. I love the process and I'm pretty stubborn, so I will stick with it until I get exactly the way I want. There are so many variables that affect the quality of the beer. That's both the beauty and pitfall of AG. A small change in temperature, or mash ph or grain type or etc. can either make the beer better or it can give it an off flavor. With extract there are just fewer things that can go wrong.

As I said, I love the process and will work at it to get it right. I'm sure that in the hands of a competent brewer who knows his/her equipment AG will produce a superior beer. However, in the hands of this rookie it has produced some very mediocre brews, but I'll keep working to improve. For me the other major benefit is cost. My extract ingredients are pushing $35 at my LHBS compared to about $20 for AG. That alone is enough of a motivator to get the AG working.

 

[cheezydemon]

True Dat! AG is a whole lot easier to screw up. One bad thermometer, on huge boil over, one NA or nearly so batch and you will wish you had dumped in some DME

 

[Baldy_Beer_Brewery]

AG isn't that hard. Palmer's analogy about cutting up tree limbs with sister, brother and dad's help and all the tools makes it sound overly complicated IMHO. Modified malts, a single infusion mash and a fly sparge was all I found I needed to do to make a good AG beer.

I'm glad I started with extracts as it allowed me to get my sanitizing, racking, bottling/kegging and boiling practice, but I can't see ever going back to extracts again. I just enjoy the whole process more than the extract adding and stirring.

 

[beachbrew]

imo you can't brew a great pils without going to all grain. I can get a truely pale but flavorful brew this way

 

[JoePolvino]

I have been brewing extract with steeping grains recipes and always pay a little extra to get quality ingredients. I am very intrigued by all grain brewing as it seems like the traditional way to experience brewing.

I read the all grain section in Papazians book and it just seems so involved and difficult to me? Maybe I am looking too much into it. The thing that I really wonder about is whether or not an all grain beer would be that much better?

Ray Daniels says in DGB that some award winning beers were made by extract, so don't sell it short; you can make very good beers with extract, and even better beers with a partial mash.

If all grain seems confusing, you are not alone. Probably the biggest hurdle you will face is not knowing what you don't know. Some people can pick up AG brewing and have a very successful hobby, while others will make mistakes and quit.

The Papazian book is actually quite good and will allow you to make AG, but it is not the only way to do it. On the other hand, you can get even more confused by trying to digest all the different ways people do it. My opinion would be to focus on just one source (I used CP's book) and get a few batches under your belt. Then, once you know you can make consistently good AG beer, start looking around for ideas from the community.

-joe

 

[TheDom]

Another thing that made the jump to AG easy for me was getting a good software program to work out all the calculations for me. I use Beersmith, others here use ProMash, both are great programs that make life easier for the lazy.

 

[sirsloop]

Biggest hurdle for me is space. I live in a 750sqft apartment with a wife and a bird. No garage, no hose, no place to keep a keggle, no place to keep a huge cooler, no place to keep 50+ pounds of grain etc etc. Sure I *COULD* put all this stuff in my living room or something but then I would be in the dog house eternally. I could brew on my front lawn with propane tanks, but it would be very very odd. I do have a deck upstairs but its a little too small for an open flame and a keggle. I can do partial boils using extract easy enough and the beer tastes good. At the moment there is really no desire go to to AG short of saving a few bucks on ingredients. Maybe when I get a house and have lots of man space I can flex my EAC arms and get some keggles. Heck, I'm lucky to have a 33 gallon air compressor (that hasnt been used since I moved in). I dont even have a mig welder...if it wasnt for that air compressor I would have a hard time calling myself a man!! HAHA!

Really once you have the equipment working, its a rather simple process. Bite the bullet and do some tried and true recipes, dial in your setup, then get creative with your own stuff.

 

[Moonshae]

I think I'm going to give this a shot. When I first read the AG process, it was when I was first reading how to brew. It seemed beyond complicated, so I didn't really pay much attention to it, with extract being much simpler. Now that I have some knowledge, all I really need is an extra pot for boiling more water and some items to make a filter for the cooler drain.

 

[Bobby_M]

You're in Jersey man, there are a few all grainers in-state who would be glad to run a batch with you. I've done it before and would do it again.

 

[Soulive]

You're in Jersey man, there are a few all grainers in-state who would be glad to run a batch with you. I've done it before and would do it again.

Agreed. Moonshae, you're like 30min from me and Bobby. We're both AG experts