Irish Red Ale questions

[bschot]

I made my first all grain batch last Saturday 05/29. And now I have a few questions.

My efficiency ~55% came out much lower than expected, I believe it had to do with the poor crush the LHBS did, I didn't notice all of the intact barley kernels at the time.

Also I forgot to buffer the water with 5.2 until about half way through the mash. I know to treat at the beginning in the future. My question is do I add enough 5.2 for the entire 5 gallon batch to the strike water or just the amount for the water added at the time. Should I have treated the 2.5 gallons that I doughed in with, with the full dose of 5.2 or just enough for the 2.5 gallons.

Also upon tasting the pre-boil wort and post-boil hopped wort both had a grain flavor, it tasted like the malted barley (yes, I tried some). I was wondering is this flavor typical in all-grain, does it ferment out, is this the tannin leaching that everyone speaks about in hushed tones. It wasn't bitter, it was pleasant grain flavor with a slight earthiness, although the sugars could have been hiding any bitterness. If it sticks around through fermentation I don't think it will be bad batch of beer, I'm just wondering did I screw up somewhere?

Thanks

 

[shortyjacobs]

Batch or fly sparging? Most say 5.2 stabilizer is useless anyway. For Batch sparging, it's definitely useless.

Grain flavor can be tannins, or just grain flavor, (tough to say without me tasting it). Did it taste like sucking on a tea bag? If so - Tannins. Only way you would get tannins is high mashout temp, bad vorlaufing, or really wonky pH.

So, did your mash ever get above 172? That can cause tannin extraction. Did you vorlauf to get clear wort before transferring into the kettle? Batch or fly sparge?

 

[bschot]

Batch Sparge. So I'll have to balance pH by testing with paper and adding minerals. Dang, I figured 5.2 Stabilizer was too good to be true. I also vorlaufed, I wonder if I didn't vorlauf enough. I did about a gallon each for mash tun drain and sparge. My temperature climbed above 172 as I added water to raise temp, it went to about 176 as I stirred, I think it was hot spots so it may have been 30 to 40 seconds in some areas. And finally it was pleasantly grainy not bitter like bad tea.

Thanks

 

[shortyjacobs]

Batch Sparge. So I'll have to balance pH by testing with paper and adding minerals. Dang, I figured 5.2 Stabilizer was too good to be true. I also vorlaufed, I wonder if I didn't vorlauf enough. I did about a gallon each for mash tun drain and sparge. My temperature climbed above 172 as I added water to raise temp, it went to about 176 as I stirred, I think it was hot spots so it may have been 30 to 40 seconds in some areas. And finally it was pleasantly grainy not bitter like bad tea.

Thanks

With Batch sparging you generally don't have to worry about pH. You can get some test papers to set your mind at ease, but my 2 cents is "forget about it".

A gallon is a big vorlauf, I'm sure you are fine there. 176 for a few seconds is no big deal, again RDWHAHB.

Pleasantly grainy just sounds like good wort to me. If it tastes like butt after you bottle and condition it, then worry...at this point I'd say nothing to worry about.

 

[drmario47]

What was your mash temp. And how long did you keep it at that temp for?

 

[Gwitz]

I'm curious how a particular sparging method has any influence on pH balancing.

 

[JuanMoore]

I made my first all grain batch last Saturday 05/29. And now I have a few questions.

My efficiency ~55% came out much lower than expected, I believe it had to do with the poor crush the LHBS did, I didn't notice all of the intact barley kernels at the time.

Also I forgot to buffer the water with 5.2 until about half way through the mash. I know to treat at the beginning in the future. My question is do I add enough 5.2 for the entire 5 gallon batch to the strike water or just the amount for the water added at the time. Should I have treated the 2.5 gallons that I doughed in with, with the full dose of 5.2 or just enough for the 2.5 gallons.

Also upon tasting the pre-boil wort and post-boil hopped wort both had a grain flavor, it tasted like the malted barley (yes, I tried some). I was wondering is this flavor typical in all-grain, does it ferment out, is this the tannin leaching that everyone speaks about in hushed tones. It wasn't bitter, it was pleasant grain flavor with a slight earthiness, although the sugars could have been hiding any bitterness. If it sticks around through fermentation I don't think it will be bad batch of beer, I'm just wondering did I screw up somewhere?

Thanks

What does your water profile look like? If it looks good then there's no need to add 5.2, and if it needs adjustment the odds are that adding 5.2 isn't the best solution. IMHO that stuff is fairly useless, but the way it's advertised causes a lot of people to add it to their water without even finding out what the water chemistry is first. To me this is like adding salt to soup without tasting it first, for all you know the soup might be over salted already. I know this is an oversimplified analogy, but that's what it reminds me of.

Did you do an iodine test to check for conversion? It's possible that the low efficiency and grainy taste are from incomplete conversion. What were your mash temps and were they taken with a calibrated thermometer that you know to be accurate?

 

[JuanMoore]

I'm curious how a particular sparging method has any influence on pH balancing.

The main reason the sparge PH is less important when batch sparging is that the sparge water is only in contact with the grains for a few minutes as opposed to an hour plus for fly sparging. Even if the PH is off, there's not much time for tannins to get extracted.

 

[bschot]

Protein rest at 122 for 30 min, Saccharification at 154 for 45 min, and mash out at 168 for 10 min.

I reread the recipe I used and it said O.G. of 1.054, so mine wasn't terribly off at 1.047. Beer Smith estimated 1.069 at 80% efficiency, I wonder why mine and theirs is so low?

And the water? Well, um.....I didn't get it tested, I had used it in the past for extract brewing and it made tasty beer so I thought what the heck. Also I didn't do an iodine test, I should have, its easy and iodine is easy to get a hold of. If conversion is incomplete what does one do, wait longer?

 

[JuanMoore]

Protein rest at 122 for 30 min, Saccharification at 154 for 45 min, and mash out at 168 for 10 min.

As long as your thermo is accurate you should have had conversion.

I reread the recipe I used and it said O.G. of 1.054, so mine wasn't terribly off at 1.047. Beer Smith estimated 1.069 at 80% efficiency, I wonder why mine and theirs is so low?

Did the recipe give an estimated efficiency? Most recipes assume 65-75%, so inputting the grain bill into beersmith at 80% would predict a higher OG. I'm guessing that the recipe was for 65% efficiency.

And the water? Well, um.....I didn't get it tested, I had used it in the past for extract brewing and it made tasty beer so I thought what the heck. Also I didn't do an iodine test, I should have, its easy and iodine is easy to get a hold of. If conversion is incomplete what does one do, wait longer?

Water chemistry is really only important for the mash, and since the mash has already been done for you with extract brewing, then as long as the water tastes good it's probably fine for brewing. With all grain brewing it's a little more complicated. I'd suggest calling your water dept and asking for some info. They'll probably have everything you need to know. First you'll want to read this-http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15.html

To be honest I'm not sure what to do if the wort fails the conversion test, especially if you've already denatured the enzymes with a mash-out. If it happened to me I'd be double checking my thermometers and asking questions here to figure out what went wrong. Maybe someone else will chime in.

 

[CidahMastah]

You sure this is about water chemistry and simply not getting an accurate reading for your gravity? If you water made good extract brews I doubt it would have any problems making good batches now.

1. Did you properly mix your first and second runnings? It is easy to get a poor mix and a weak reading due to this.
2. Did you adjust temperature? your hydrometer will read low if the wort is hot and as it cools the gravity will go up (68F is the accurate read)

5.2 isn't worth using from anecqotal accounts on this forum that I have heard.

Honestly I think it was either 1 or 2 from above. This was your first batch, I bet you are just fine and didn't get an accurate reading due to stratification of sugars.

My advice on this on is don't over analyze. RDWHAHB


one other thing (anticipate water people to throw books at me) - I don't think water is all that important to get a good mash. That is, if you can drink the water you can brew with it and get your conversion in your mash. When you want to get fancy and match water types from Burton or remake a specific german pilsner, then worry about R/O water or distilled and adjusting PH and adding gypsum, etc. You should focus on the basics for now.

Generally I have great success from a simple 60 minute single infusion mash (wheat and regular beers) followed by a batch sparge. I usually get 73-78% efficiency. I use my well water with no adjustments which is 25 grains hard.

 

[bschot]

I've tested the thermometer with boiling and ice water. Boiling I got to 210-211, and ice water down to 33-34. And unfortunately the recipe didn't include estimated efficiency.