IPA Qs

[brewdog65]

Two newbie questions.


1. I have an IPA fermenting at 6 days in a brewing bucket sealed with airlock. Is it better to transfer to secondary soon (once SG is down ~ 80%) to age another couple weeks or to keep in the bucket? Buddy says there is risk of O2 seepage through the plastic bucket and seal. So, I'm weighing that risk vs. transferring risk of contamination etc. Thoughts?


2. Was wanting to do a strong hoppy IPA from two Coopers Brew A IPA cans plus ~.5 kg corn sugar, pitching with both yeast packets. The profile looks about right from an SG to FG point of view, but will it be way too hoppy? I like Double IPAs, so my thinking is why not keep it simple this time rather than just using one can plus light extracts/sugars plus Cascade hops to get the bitterness up (what I did for batch 1 above). Thoughts?

 

[triethylborane]

Forget secondary. Just keep it in the primary fermenter until you have hit target FG and then bottle. Risk of O2 seepage . . . sure there is a risk of that with every fermentation vessel, but if you don't have a leak, then its a nonissue. If you have a leak, then I would still just keep it in the primary until FG, and then correct the issues with regard to sealing before the next batch.

On the coopers, hop strain, quantity and boil time is critical to making an assessment. Do you know how much of what kind of hop you would be adding and for how long in the boil?

 

[DJTroz]

1. You will find mixed feelings about transferring to secondary. Most of us run the entire fementation schedule in the same vessel. I for one only ferment in buckets (have about 14 just for brewing, got a deal through a baker). As fermentation starts, you will create a later of CO2, which will block out the O2. There are some that even leave their lids slightly cracked (not recommended).

2. By adding corn sugar during primary/secondary, you will give a small boost to the ABV but it will also slightly dry out your beer, if that is ok.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Your buddy is right about O2 seepage through the walls of the bucket, however in the course of a typical ale fermentation it's not an issue. If it's sitting in there for several months or more (bulk aging strong ales, some lagers, and particularly sours) then yes it can be a problem. In your case, don't worry about it. The oxygen uptake from racking to secondary will far supersed any ingress through the bucket walls.

If you're looking for a double IPA, too hoppy basically doesn't exist. Go for it.

 

[jerbrew]

1) leave it alone. You're probably already past 80% attenuated if not completely done by now. Don't worry about O2 diffusing through your bucket. Its a slow process that takes time. IPAs are a fast thing that you don't want prolonged storage for. I'd bottle this sucker as soon as a week from now as long as you;ve hit your FG.

2) I think I understand that you're going to use two cans of extract, two allotments of hops, and two packs of yeast from two kits into one beer? This isn't a bad option. I would simply recommend that you add the second allotment of extract at the end, 5 minutes left, of the boil. This is going to help you with hop utilization that will, in turn, help you get enough bitterness from your hops. For the hops set up a free account with Brewersfriend, or equivalent, to get a rough feel for the hop additions. Brewing software helps you get a feel for how simple changes to a hop schedule or malt bill can, by the numbers, change the profile of a beer.

Good luck and cheers.

 

[brewdog65]

First, thanks all for the replies. Very refreshing to post something on a forum and get helpful encouraging responses rather than get slammed.

To clarify on brew 2, I'm proposing:
2 Coopers Brew A IPA cans (1.7 kg x 2 = 3.4 kg)
~.5 kg corn sugar
pitch the two yeast packets.

No additional hops.

I would do a very short boil or almost no boil (boil then add all fermentables then low simmer for 10 mins) to retain the hop components in the liquid extract. Looks like 1.055 OG and 1.010 FG and ABV 5.8% so that looks right to me for IPA, but wondering about hop level from the two kit cans?

 

[kh54s10]

I will go counter and say that o2 seepage through a bucket is NOT a problem unless you leave the beer in the bucket for MANY months. A good seal on the lid is also unimportant unless you are going to leave the beer in the bucket for months.

Also the co2 "layer" will mix with o2 after fermentation is complete. It will last a while but not forever.g

I am not sure of what you are trying to do with the 2 Coopers kits and extra sugar.

How much beer are you going to make with the 2 cans of hopped extract and extra sugar. If you just double the extract in the amount of water for one kit then you will pretty much double the ABV. I am not sure it will affect the hops equally. I guess it would pretty much double the hop presence. That may make the beer way to bitter. But it might be worth the experiment. I would expect a very harsh high alcohol bitter beer if you did this.

If you are doing 2 kits that were designed for 5 gallons into one batch of 10 gallons you will only see a difference of a bit of increased ABV and a little dryness from the added sugar.

If you were looking to do a IIPA, I would find a good kit that is designed that way.

 

[brewdog65]

Re: two Coopers kits

5 gal batch.

The genesis of this brew plan is that I live in a small town a long way from any home brew supply shop. My local supermarket has some basic items, at the following prices:
Coopers can kits - $14
Coopers LME/brew enhancer - $12

So if I follow recipe on Coopers Brew A can it is the can plus 3 LMEs for a total cost of $48. If I use two cans I get similar amount of fermentables for $28 plus a couple bucks for any corn sugar I add. So, my way of thinking is why not use the two cans as it will cost way less and must be at least a similar quality product as the LME or brew enhancer. I'd add a bit of sugar (~500g) to cut any overly bitterness, at least that's what I'm thinking.

 

[Qhrumphf]

The sugar will ferment entirely and dry it out and increase perceived bitterness.

For a double IPA this is good.

Keep in mind that iso-alphas have limited solubility and the human palate has limited sensitivity. End result is a functional maximum IBUs of about 100- few beers even reach near that as measured in a lab. And even if lab measurement goes above that, the human palate loses the ability to detect the increase. Either way, calculated IBUs are an estimate that almost always will overestimate and often by a wide margin compared to what is actually measured in a lab.

So on the one hand, a technical IBU represents a concentration of isomerized alpha acids in the beer, and is directly measurable. Calculated IBUs are a guess, and best served seen as relative to your practice.

Double IPAs can already push that limit in actual real IBUs. They're supposed to be (or at least can be) intensely bitter.

While I'd agree properly designed recipes are preferrable, for a quick DIPA fix I think your plan is solid. I would suggest using a bit of extra yeast and making sure you aerate the hell out of it.

 

[jbraaten]

The primary to secondary debate is a long and extensive one based , in part, on clarification of beer. Of course, when transferring out of your bucket (which I used for many years) you introduce additional oxygen into the mix that can affect flavor, but I would argue that under most circumstances it is imperceptible. If you are making an alert, honestly, I don't know that it is required in the amount of time you are fermenting.

Beyond basic clarification procedures on the cook (Irish moss etc...) You are going to be just wanting to make sure to rack as little yeast as possible when you bottle/keg.

I will echo other posters here, a double IPA is pretty much no holds barred on hoppiness,, but bear in mind 1) what a fellow poster said about human sensitivity for IBUs and 2) how tired you are going to get of drinking the same super hoppy beer. I have started opting for more middle of the road IBU and abv beer unless I am having a party just so I don't blow out my pallet every night I want to have a couple pints.

 

[IslandLizard]

I haven't seen the instructions on those cans, but from what I understand, those cans with hopped extract should NOT be boiled at all.

Probably best to add all your extracts and sugars when the water is 190F, it will cool down a bit while adding. Keep it at, or heat very slowly under constant stirring (scrape the bottom!) to 165-170F for a few minutes to pasteurize, then chill.

Since you don't boil anything, you could only use half the water you need (at boiling temps) to dissolve the extracts and sugars, then top off with cold, fresh, clean water to chill it down quickly. You should be close to pitching temps by then, or put into a sink or tub with cold water to chill further. Keep the lid on.

To brew an IPA you really need some "real" hops added at the very end of the boil or better yet, when it has cooled to around 180-170F (hopstand, "whirlpool"). They also need a dry hop using "real" hops (flowers or pellets) in the fermentor, at the end of the fermentation for a few days. Without the "real" hops it will be a regular beer.

Any idea how old those packages of yeast are? Can you source dry yeast that's definitely fresh to use instead?

 

[IslandLizard]

You don't mention your location, aren't there better options than buying cans of "supermarket" malt extract? Can you source dry or canned malt extract, real hops, either flowers (leaf) or pellets? And yeast?

Before I forget, if there's any chlorine in your water, you need to treat it with a small bit of Campden or K-meta. Chlorine will kill beer flavor. Needless to say, since beer is 90% water, that water should be of good quality. If it tastes good, it's probably OK for beer.

 

[brewdog65]

I'm in backwoods British Columbia, with the nearest small city 1 hr from me and they don't have any beer brewing supply stores (there is a wine u-brew but they don't sell beer supplies). Any real brew shop is 3+ hrs from me. I can order online of course, but when a Coopers kit is $14 on my supermarket shelves and the same kit is $25+ online (why that is I don't understand) I'm not going to almost pay double.

Agree that better inputs may make better beer, and I did use some of buddy's last homegrown Cascade hops in my other IPA batch, this time around I have to make do with what I have.

A bonus of being in middle of Rocky Mountains is there is no chlorine in my water, it's pure mountain fresh and tasty from the tap.

Agree with the no boil, in actuality I will bring a couple litres of water to boil, then add the two Coopers cans and bit of sugar and then low simmer for about 10 mins, then add to water in primary and cool then pitch the two enclosed yeast packets. Fingers crossed!

 

[IslandLizard]

I'm in backwoods British Columbia, with the nearest small city 1 hr from me and they don't have any beer brewing supply stores (there is a wine u-brew but they don't sell beer supplies). Any real brew shop is 3+ hrs from me. I can order online of course, but when a Coopers kit is $14 on my supermarket shelves and the same kit is $25+ online (why that is I don't understand) I'm not going to almost pay double.

Agree that better inputs may make better beer, and I did use some of buddy's last homegrown Cascade hops in my other IPA batch, this time around I have to make do with what I have.

A bonus of being in middle of Rocky Mountains is there is no chlorine in my water, it's pure mountain fresh and tasty from the tap.

Agree with the no boil, in actuality I will bring a couple litres of water to boil, then add the two Coopers cans and bit of sugar and then low simmer for about 10 mins, then add to water in primary and cool then pitch the two enclosed yeast packets. Fingers crossed!

I get a much clearer picture now!

I didn't say buying kits, just "rawer" ingredients. Hopped extracts are better today than they used to be, back in the days, but they are nowhere near using fresh LME or DME and real hops. The nature of the hops changes due to the condensing process, and leaves a mere illusion of them. Also check the dates on those cans, you want them to be as fresh as possible. I'd say 6 months after manufacture is pushing it, even under refrigerated storage. Same for unrefrigerated dry yeast. Dry (beer) yeast is fairly cheap, and can be stored in the freezer for years. The yeast that comes with the cans, hmm, who knows where that's been and for how long? See Palmer's How to Brew.

The point is NOT to boil/simmer hopped extracts, whatever hop flavor is left will change even more, while making it more bitter.

What is in those "booster" cans? <Ugh>, that terminology sounds awfully like Mr. Beer at work there). Is it declared as 100% liquid malt extract (LME)? Or some generic sugar syrup?

If you've tasted commercial IPAs and DIPA's, and want to create something that resembles those, you need real hops. That's what makes those beers! Otherwise you'll end up with some Golden, Blonde or Double Blond ale, more or less bitter, but no significant hop flavor or aroma to speak of or anything that pops.

How about using your friend's Cascade hop stash, and splitting some beer with him? Cascade makes really good Pale Ales, and IPAs when using them more liberally...

Liberally, as in 4 oz of hops (or more) per 5 gallon (19 liter). This is aside from using 1 or 2 ounces of dedicated bittering hops, or whatever came in those "hopped" cans. Add 2 oz at the end of the boil (@flameout) or better yet, when the wort has cooled to 170-180F and let stand at those temps for 30' with a stir once every few minutes. Then add the remaining 2 oz as a dry hop at the end of the fermentation, directly to the primary. Forget secondaries, no need, causing more trouble, solving none.

You may be able to order a pound or a few pounds of different hops from one of the US vendors in the NW, like YakimaValleyHops or HopsDirect. There are others. From US sources you'll likely need to order pellets, as exporting leaf hops seems to be prohibited. Pellets are fine, as good as leaf for all practical purposes, but keep better. Store in freezer (not fridge). After use, squeeze all air out, seal well (use tape) then put them back in freezer.