IPA/Pale Ale Chloride / Sulfate Ratio

[matchrocket]

First off, apologies if this lands in the wrong spot.
Long time brewer, first time water treat'er here. ...

Water in Phoenix is .... horrible. So, I am transitioning to using RO for mash and filtered tap for sparge and I had some questions about my first beer to be brewed with treated water.

Its a Pale ale knocking on the door of IPA and I am a a little concerned about my CL/SO4 ratio once I hit style guidelines from Brewing Elements Water (Page 158/159 - Medium Pale) with EZ Water calc v3.0.2

Will the resulting ratio make this beer over the top bitter? Ranges alone from CL and SO4 suggest this is OKAY...

Water Profile - Based on Medium Pale from Elements Water:
14lbs 2-Row
2lbs Crystal 60
6.5G Mash Water
40 IBU
Salts:
3g So4
3G CaCl2
2g MgSo4
3G CaCO3

Results:
CA 110 [Range - 50 - 150]
CL 56 [Range - 0 - 100]
SO4 100 [Range - 100 - 400]
Alk 60 [Range - 40 - 120]
Res Alk -23 [Range -> -30 - 30]
Ratio 0.59 (To low I'm thinking)
PH 5.58

 

[Yooper]

Pretend you've never heard the term "chloride/sulfate ratio". The reason is that flavors don't "erase" each other.

Pretend the chloride is salt, and the sulfate is pepper. You don't add more pepper to counteract the salt- you want both spices in your dinner.

Target an appropriate mash pH, and use enough gypsum (calcium sulfate) to get your sulfate where you want it. I like 120-150 ppm for many pale ales, while others go higher. You don't need to add any calcium chloride at all, as you have plenty of calcium. You can use the epsom salts if you want, if your calcium is too high, but I'd ditch that too.

Definitely throw out the chalk. It doesn't dissolve properly, and your mash pH isn't going to be too low anyway.

In other words, start over and just add enough gypsum to get your sulfate to, say, 125-150 ppm. Make sure your mash pH is 5.3-5.5 (5.4 is great!) and you're good.

EZ water is always wrong in predicting mash pH for me, by the way, so I'd choose another spreadsheet if you're not adept with adjusting mash pH on the fly with a good meter.

 

[Yooper]

Oh, and I'd be more cautious about the 'filtered tap water for sparge' as the alkalinity in the sparge water can cause some off-flavors. If you can acidify your sparge water to under 6 pH, it may be ok, but my preference would be to sparge with 100% RO water unless you are entirely sure of your water's makeup.

 

[matchrocket]

Wow, okay. I guess this is why I avoided this topic entirely (water treatment) as there is so much information that contradicts its self.

I figured I'd be safe trying a target from Palmers/Kaminski's book. Experience suggests otherwise apparently.

Thanks for the feedback.

 

[matchrocket]

Oh, and I'd be more cautious about the 'filtered tap water for sparge' as the alkalinity in the sparge water can cause some off-flavors. If you can acidify your sparge water to under 6 pH, it may be ok, but my preference would be to sparge with 100% RO water unless you are entirely sure of your water's makeup.

Never had an issue with sparge water PH going above 6 when I stop at 1.010. Honestly the only reason I was planning on doing this was to reduce the amount of water I would have to buy.

 

[Yooper]

Wow, okay. I guess this is why I avoided this topic entirely (water treatment) as there is so much information that contradicts its self.

I figured I'd be safe trying a target from Palmers/Kaminski's book. Experience suggests otherwise apparently.

Thanks for the feedback.

Oh, the "target" is ok! But how you get there (chloride:sulfate ratio, adding chalk) is not.

A general sulfate addition is wonderful for many IPAs and pale ales. The amount YOU like may be different than I like (I'm of the "less is more" camp in most cases).

Your pH is a bit high, and a pH of 5.4 would mean a great deal, compared to 5.6 in the flavor but the difference between 10 and 50 ppm of chloride is meaningless mostly.

 

[z-bob]

How important is it to have at least a little chloride? The water here is so alkaline I'm just using straight RO water plus a little gypsum and/or calcium chloride. In the pale ale I brewed Saturday, I just used gypsum.

When I was brewing years ago, I just brewed dark beers using dechlorinated local water for the mash, and RO water to sparge. That worked pretty well but really limited my styles.

 

[matchrocket]

Checked it against Bru'N water and EZ Water calc. Differences between the too for sure, but both fit in the middle. PH is the wild card here and sheets read 5.4 on Bru'N and 5.57 on EZ. (Both using DI as input, RO might have some residual)

Think I am just going to brew it and see what I get, taking my measurements 15 - 20m into Mash as I always do. (Pocket Pro+) Need to stop stressing and just brew the damn thing.

Additions will be:
6g Gypsum (~0.9g/Gal)
3.5 CaCl (~0.5g/Gal)
1.5 NaHCO3 (~0.25g/Gal To pull-up RA and Alk, almost no impact on PH)

Dropping me well within the ranges for this style.

 

[Yooper]

Checked it against Bru'N water and EZ Water calc. Differences between the too for sure, but both fit in the middle. PH is the wild card here and sheets read 5.4 on Bru'N and 5.57 on EZ. (Both using DI as input, RO might have some residual)

Think I am just going to brew it and see what I get, taking my measurements 15 - 20m into Mash as I always do. (Pocket Pro+) Need to stop stressing and just brew the damn thing.

Additions will be:
6g Gypsum (~0.9g/Gal)
3.5 CaCl (~0.5g/Gal)
1.5 NaHCO3 (~0.25g/Gal To pull-up RA and Alk, almost no impact on PH)

Dropping me well within the ranges for this style.

Why the baking soda? It DOES have an impact on pH, via the alkalinity. Leave it out- RA is not important, and you want low alkalinity water. You only need enough alkalinity to hit your mash pH, and 5.3-5.4 is ideal. That's a small amount, true, but it doesn't belong in there.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

The idea should be to adjust your pH to a room temperature range, say 5.4 - 5.6, and then to 'lock' the pH in by adjusting your alkalinity so it provides the strongest buffering within that range and temperature. I've never had a need to adjust my strike and sparge water differently but I do brew using eBIAB RIMS.

 

[Yooper]

Oh, by the way, bru'n water is always very accurate for me. EZ water always estimates too high. Your may be different, but I'd think that bru'n water may be closest in estimating!

For z-Bob, who asked about chloride, I'd really recommend reading bru'n water's water knowledge page (it's free). https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/water-knowledge

Martin Brungard is a member of our forum, and his info is far better than I could ever provide.

 

[brewkinger]

Oh, by the way, bru'n water is always very accurate for me. EZ water always estimates too high. Your may be different, but I'd think that bru'n water may be closest in estimating!



For z-Bob, who asked about chloride, I'd really recommend reading bru'n water's water knowledge page (it's free). https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/water-knowledge



Martin Brungard is a member of our forum, and his info is far better than I could ever provide.

+1 to this ^

Check out the brew science forum.
Martin, ajdelange and many other very knowledgable members with regards to water chemistry.

Like Yooper said, the target you have set is a good one. Just use the KISS philosophy at first.
For me, the minimum amount of adjustment to get my minerals into an acceptable style guideline and the mash pH to 5.4 and I am off and running.
Bru'n water has served me well, all 4 brews that I have done since focusing on water chemistry have been spot on for pH, so I trust it as well.

I plan on making one of those beers again and changing the profile to see if I can tweak the taste the way that the literature says that I should be able to. A little more sulfate to see if I can accentuate hop bitterness in both and produce a solid IPA.

 

[sky4meplease]

While the balance leans toward the sulfate it is less than 2:1 (SO4/CL) so while slightly bitter certainly not over the top.