IPA burnout

[shoreman]

What would be an example for a classic ipa brewed like those from back in the days times when it was actually really brewed to last the long trip to India?

There’s quite a few recipes in this book
https://www.brewerspublications.com...s-recipes-and-the-evolution-of-india-pale-ale

The amount of hops in those recipes is large - like a lb for 5 gallons and most of that is bittering.

 

[applescrap]

An actual "IPA" can be quite tasty. The 150 IBU paint remover that people are making, is a different story.

I can just imagine the brewers conversations... "hey Joe, this batch tastes like crap!" "No problem, throw another 20 pounds of cascade in it, and make up a cool name. Nobody will notice"

What's going to be fricken hilarious is when the extreme hop fad ends and brew pubs are going to have to make real beers with quality and balance to satisfy the customers. They will no longer be able to hide behind hops.

Is real beer like true beer. Do you have a recipe?

 

[Devin]

Cool story, bro.

Now can you at least envision why someone with a more refined palate might feel frustrated going to restaurant after restaurant after restaurant and finding that their only food options are:
1. any of 12 dishes smothered in habaneros,
2. soggy french fries, and
3. maybe a salad?

The problem isn't that hoppy beers exist (except when they're maliciously mislabeled, IE overproof IPAs sold as "barleywines") it's that they're so absurdly overrepresented in terms of actual commercial offerings and popular consciousness. There's no reason a bar shouldn't have a good IPA or two on, and there's no excuse for a bar with 6 India Whatever Whatevers out of 10 beer offerings and nothing on darker than an amber, not even Guinness.

Ahh. Forgive me. I forgot that I am in the presence of people with such advanced palates. I not very sophisticated, ya see....

Oh, and there is a fine excuse why bars carry 6 India Whatevers and no ambers....money. The unsophisticated masses with sub-level sensory perception really enjoy the India Whatevers and buy the hell out of them and don't buy much of the darker beers.

 

[user 246304]

California wine made the mistake of trying to dazzle judge's palates. Judges get palate fatigue, so winemakers had to hit the overdrive harder and harder. Enter Parker, who lauds this style of wine here and abroad and lo and behold, people who make this kind of wine make a lot of money. People who show restraint, who have an easy touch with the grape (I'm thinking in particular of pinot noir, a very delicate fruit and one that requires transparency), get left behind.

That's money. That's the market. It says nothing about the quality of a given palate, it only says that a given palate makes money.

I'm sick of overwraught, cloying, imbalanced beers. What you would call greatness, I believe. I'd like to get so many British ales I believe are exceedingly well crafted, and balanced; drinkable, balance. What you would call gutless, I believe. I'd like them, but the best chance I had, the local "premium" place that carries decent wine, spirits, etc., their beer rep said it's just impossible. "Everybody wants those hop bombs."

It's preference. Enjoyment. Zero to do with snobbery. I know I'll continue to ask for them, and try to make them.

 

[Miraculix]

There’s quite a few recipes in this book
https://www.brewerspublications.com...s-recipes-and-the-evolution-of-india-pale-ale

The amount of hops in those recipes is large - like a lb for 5 gallons and most of that is bittering.

Thanks! That book looks really interesting!

 

[SoCal-Doug]

Last week the owner of a local brewery was working the bar with a trainee. He handed us a tap list sheet. I sampled a cream ale and a stout. All the rest (10 ish taps) were noted as being mega hoppy in one form or another.

We chatted about brewing for a bit and here comes the two glasses. The cream ale was pretty good (had it been on nitro it would have been even better). The stout had enough hops to completely overpower every bit of malt. Honest to God, it was like drinking diesel fuel mixed with isopropyl alcohol with a few drops of coffee in it for aroma. I ordered a pint of the cream as we chatted more (I think he liked having a couple customers to hang out with, that could speak brewing).

He could tell I wasn't going to finish the stout sample and said "you aren't into the hop thing huh?" I explained its like thin crust pizza, it's just not my thing. He tells us "I been brewing for over 15 years. I love the small batches i do for my own consumption, but honestly, I can't drink any of this $hit. It's what sells so I make it". I asked if he has tried a simple Saison, Pilsner or Irish Red. He's said tried them all, but the kegs don't empty for months.

I ordered another cream and asked if IPA's are really that yummy to that many people or is it a fad". He thinks it's 50/50 and said to watch the people around us. See how many cringe as they drink, as if they just took a spoonful of pure tannin or shot some nasty cheap tequila. He said that many people just force themselves to swallow glass after glass. He pointed out a couple in a booth and said that the guy just ordered a "Quadruple IPA" for his lady friend. She was visibly angry and gagging after the first sip and the guy laughed. I said "So it's like sneaking a vomit flavored jelly bean into the candy dish or pranking a buddy" he said "Exactly!".

So... My opinions stand. Yes, some people dig it. Some just want to be cool, tough-guy or keep up with the Jones's. Kudo's to these brewers that learn and use basic supply and demand to earn a living. The "Pet Rock" sold millions. If people want it, take their money and smile all the way to the bank! It is not a "advanced palate" or snobby thing at all.

 

[NoIguanaForZ]

...and just ignore the chicken-and-egg problem.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

There’s quite a few recipes in this book
https://www.brewerspublications.com...s-recipes-and-the-evolution-of-india-pale-ale

The amount of hops in those recipes is large - like a lb for 5 gallons and most of that is bittering.

Ron Pattinson has dug up plenty of IPA recipes over the years, both on his blog and if you poke around Google Books - it's always courteous to buy a book if you're using the recipe though.

Although the weight of hops seems large, you have to remember that this would have been before the days of cold chains and protective atmospheres/mylar vacuum packs, so you have to wonder a bit as to what state the hops were in. In air at room temperature, the half life of alpha acids in hops can be less than six months.

Also you have to consider what varieties were being used - for instance Tolhurst was widespread in Mid Kent between the wars, and I've seen that analysed at just 2.2% alpha, it was definitely the "cheap and cheerful" hop with great yields of not so good hops (as well as a notoriously poor keeper). One would hope that as premium beers IPAs would get the premium hops like EKG, but when have big brewers ever taken the more expensive option....?

In terms of commercial beers - all the "original" ones have suffered through the 20th century and are now a pale shadow of what they were, your best bet are the breweries that make heritage recipes, such as the guys at the Burton museum and Beer Nouveau (who even made the infamous cock ale for IndyMan this year).

 

[frozengator]

I finally tried a couple different styles in the last month, have to say I don't care for a brown, the tatanka from BJs restaurant is ok, Octoberfest is not bad, I really liked the Eliseian Punking. But I still preferred the taste of a good IPA

 

[Scturo]

I guess in a way, IPAs have become the BMC of craft beer. Overshadowing all the the other great styles the can be had.

I love IPAs, and if my favorite breweries need to produce 70% IPAs to attract the trendy hipsters and turn a profit, I’m ok with that. I’ll still enjoy the other styles they offer.

 

[MapleGroveAleworks]

I used to drink quite a few but I'm tired of them now. I grow weary of whatever is trendy quickly.

 

[Lefou]

Cool story, bro.

Now can you at least envision why someone with a more refined palate might feel frustrated going to restaurant after restaurant after restaurant and finding that their only food options are:
1. any of 12 dishes smothered in habaneros,
2. soggy french fries, and
3. maybe a salad?

The problem isn't that hoppy beers exist (except when they're maliciously mislabeled, IE overproof IPAs sold as "barleywines") it's that they're so absurdly overrepresented in terms of actual commercial offerings and popular consciousness.

I like tasting my food with beer. The alcohol and flavors should complement or contrast with the food, not cover it up. That said, it's a hoot going to the local BuyRite and seeing half the beers sold off the shelf - they're IPA's of one sort or another. Grodziskie and saison ....yeah, it's there, but ya haft a dig to find it. At least I know the IPA's are fresh.
I laughed when the Indian owner had trouble pronouncing one of my favored German seasonal Festbiers - not openly, but afterwards, and now I'm afraid that might mean I'm a closet beer Nazi in need of rehab.

 

[Devin]

I agree completely with the sentiment that it is about personal preference and what you like. I think that is why a lot of us got into homebrewing in the first place - to experiment with things and make what you like. I just find it funny that people get so riled up about the IPA craze. In the end, who cares if there are a lot of IPAs out there? Why get so worked up about it? It doesn't change anything.

 

[TimmyWit]

Calling IPA's "trendy" or a "fad" is ridiculous. I also think it's ridiculous to imply that many of the people drinking them are hipsters or doing it to be cool. Why would that even be a thing? Did I miss the Matthew McConaughey IPA commercial?

People drink IPA's because they're delicious and hops are awesome! If you disagree, there's a great thread floating around on here about True Beer (TM) that you might be interested in.

 

[frozengator]

Calling IPA's "trendy" or a "fad" is ridiculous. I also think it's ridiculous to imply that many of the people drinking them are hipsters or doing it to be cool. Why would that even be a thing? Did I miss the Matthew McConaughey IPA commercial?



People drink IPA's because they're delicious and hops are awesome! If you disagree, there's a great thread floating around on here about True Beer (TM) that you might be interested in.

I have to agree with this

 

[user 246304]

Man, I would never call IPA's a fad. Not with something that has such a storied history for centuries. I'm drinking a Goose Island IPA as I type this. I love the hell out of hops, too. It's a toss-up for me which turns me in to a dribbling idiot more, the smell of saccharification as the mash develops, or burying my head deep into the pile of hops freshly rubbed in my hands. Seriously. And I love all kinds of them. I'm just not a fan of a sort of competition to see who can cram the most IBU's into a beer, who can cram the most volatile oils into a beer, all while seeing how big an OG you can get. I find that easy, as I said earlier in the thread. I agree with Silver here: I like seeing the skill of a brewer at work, and one way is over a more lightly handled beer - no flaw can be hidden.

Let me say it this way. I love massive beers, if skillfully done. Best barleywine I've ever had was one crafted by my friend at the time, Jim Cibak, at Goose Island. You almost wouldn't know you were drinking a barleywine, till you were completely plowed and walking into the yeast brinks. It was subtle, a million flavors, a perfect mouthfeel and length, perfect hopping and malt balance. An incredible achievement (though Jim was one of the most gifted brewers I've ever known).

I myself brew a "Black Stag Imperial Stout" that comes in at about 13%.

I just object to the competition that frames itself around the things I mention above, over I guess what I'd call craftsmanship. That's my taste. But here I want to say my view of craftsmanship, my taste.

The market will do what the market does. Basically, let's all share a pint and history will decide itself, as it always has.

 

[SoCal-Doug]

IPA's have been around a long time. Goose Island IPA is actually quite tasty and refreshing.

What most people are referring to here and other threads, has nothing to do with an IPA. It's those senseless and spine numbing 500 IBU hop bombs that erroneously use the title of "IPA". Or, taking any style in the book and hiking the hops so far beyond reality that not even a spectrometer wouldn't have a chance of detecting malt or any other flavor.

 

[Iseneye]

That's the great thing about being a homebrewer. You get to choose what to brew. IPAs are great, along with APA, Munich Helles, Porter, ESB, Pilsners, Milds etc. If you limit yourself to one style then it is no wonder you've burned out.

 

[Dee74]

As I have posted here before I have yet to find an IPA that I like. I just spent a week in 3 different cities in NY and it was hard to find a beer on tap that was not an IPA. One pub had about 20 taps and probably 15+ were IPAs. I found some good beer but would have liked to have more selection Maybe it is a fad or maybe here to stay, only time will tell.

 

[Devin]

So it is a semantics thing? If they were called something else other than IPA, it would be ok?

I guess that I don't see that it completely masks every other flavor, neither. There is a relatively local brewery in Alburquerque, New Mexico called La Cumbre Brewing. They make some of the best IPAs that I have ever had. They are all super high on the IBU scale (100+), but they all have great malt character also, IMO. They also make a beer called Red RyeOT that they dub a malted magic "hop bomb". It has 75 IBU, and has incredible malt character, IMO. There are several other brews that I can think of that fit into this category as well.

Now, I can also think of several IPA hop bombs that suck. But, I can think of several of any type of beers that suck. There are just a lot of new breweries that seem to be opening without really having a solid understanding of good brewing techniques.

 

[NoIguanaForZ]

Calling IPA's "trendy" or a "fad" is ridiculous. I also think it's ridiculous to imply that many of the people drinking them are hipsters or doing it to be cool. Why would that even be a thing? Did I miss the Matthew McConaughey IPA commercial?

Three words: "Ick Measuring Contest."

People drink IPA's because they're delicious and hops are awesome! If you disagree, there's a great thread floating around on here about True Beer (TM) that you might be interested in.

Must be hard to brew over there, since by this logic the only possible states for your beer are either frozen solid or boiling.

 

[patto1ro]

Ron Pattinson has dug up plenty of IPA recipes over the years, both on his blog and if you poke around Google Books - it's always courteous to buy a book if you're using the recipe though.

Although the weight of hops seems large, you have to remember that this would have been before the days of cold chains and protective atmospheres/mylar vacuum packs, so you have to wonder a bit as to what state the hops were in. In air at room temperature, the half life of alpha acids in hops can be less than six months.

Also you have to consider what varieties were being used - for instance Tolhurst was widespread in Mid Kent between the wars, and I've seen that analysed at just 2.2% alpha, it was definitely the "cheap and cheerful" hop with great yields of not so good hops (as well as a notoriously poor keeper). One would hope that as premium beers IPAs would get the premium hops like EKG, but when have big brewers ever taken the more expensive option....?

In terms of commercial beers - all the "original" ones have suffered through the 20th century and are now a pale shadow of what they were, your best bet are the breweries that make heritage recipes, such as the guys at the Burton museum and Beer Nouveau (who even made the infamous cock ale for IndyMan this year).

Hops weren't stored at room temperature. Ones that weren't going to be used immediately were kept in a cold store.

Expensive beers like IPA usually contained the best quality hops, EKG or Farnham. And they were usually from the most recent season. Cheaper beers might well contain hops that were two or three years old.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I think I figured out what I do not like about British ales in general, at least about the ones I had here in the South of UK.

They are all painfully sweet to my German Pilsener influenced taste and I think I really really do not like the crystal malt character that they all show so highly accentuated.

A while back I was talking to a, shall we say "less sophisticated", beer drinker, who was raving about this beer he'd just come across called... Hobgoblin. I nodded politely but I realised that I probably hadn't had Hobgoblin since before the Marston takeover. The two are not unrelated, but also Hobgoblin is just something that you don't see in the pubs I go to.

Anyway, I was at a party where I spied a bottle of Hobgoblin so I thought I'd try it rather than some of the stuff I usually drink. Boy did I regret it - soooo sweet, ridiculously sweet. I can't remember when I last tipped a beer that wasn't off, but I couldn't finish it. So yep, if that's the kind of thing that's been shaping your ideas on British bitters, then I'm not surprised that you think they're all cloyingly sweet - I guess the Thames Valley is the heartland of that style of thing, but even Speckled Hen isn't that sweet. And yes, they're not all like that across Britain.

 

[Miraculix]

A while back I was talking to a, shall we say "less sophisticated", beer drinker, who was raving about this beer he'd just come across called... Hobgoblin. I nodded politely but I realised that I probably hadn't had Hobgoblin since before the Marston takeover. The two are not unrelated, but also Hobgoblin is just something that you don't see in the pubs I go to.

Anyway, I was at a party where I spied a bottle of Hobgoblin so I thought I'd try it rather than some of the stuff I usually drink. Boy did I regret it - soooo sweet, ridiculously sweet. I can't remember when I last tipped a beer that wasn't off, but I couldn't finish it. So yep, if that's the kind of thing that's been shaping your ideas on British bitters, then I'm not surprised that you think they're all cloyingly sweet - I guess the Thames Valley is the heartland of that style of thing, but even Speckled Hen isn't that sweet. And yes, they're not all like that across Britain.

At least there is now some room for hope

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Hi Ron. Glad you replied, as hop storage is something that noone seems to talk about even though it's as important as beer recipes when it comes to working out how old beers would have actually tasted.

Hops weren't stored at room temperature. Ones that weren't going to be used immediately were kept in a cold store.

Expensive beers like IPA usually contained the best quality hops, EKG or Farnham. And they were usually from the most recent season. Cheaper beers might well contain hops that were two or three years old.

I'm interested in the timings of this, because things like ammonia refrigeration didn't come in until the 1880s which is obviously late for IPAs. I've not heard of anyone using ice houses for hops, but maybe they did?

Looking at the climate data, these days you have around 2 months after harvest where just putting hops in a barn in Faversham would leave them at 10-15C, then they wouldn't get above 10C until March. Mebbe knock off 1-2C for climate change but I guess it's not much of a problem until after Easter. Is there any evidence of deliberately brewing IPAs in autumn/winter to capture hops in the best state?

I can't help feeling that there's evidence of this being a factor in the way that Britain has some of the best-storing traditional hops, it feels like a result of concerted selection. Certainly storage stability was a factor in Tolhurst losing out. I'm not sure how sophisticated brewers were about hop varieties - I get the impression that geographical descriptions like "Mid-Kent" persisted until at least the wilt crisis of the mid-20th century, and "Mid-Kent" can cover a multitude of sins (such as Tolhurst). Even now you still see people using "Styrian Goldings" as a generic term for Slovenian hops covering not just Savinjski but derivatives like Celeia etc.

 

[shoreman]

Ron Pattinson has dug up plenty of IPA recipes over the years, both on his blog and if you poke around Google Books - it's always courteous to buy a book if you're using the recipe though.

Although the weight of hops seems large, you have to remember that this would have been before the days of cold chains and protective atmospheres/mylar vacuum packs, so you have to wonder a bit as to what state the hops were in. In air at room temperature, the half life of alpha acids in hops can be less than six months.

Also you have to consider what varieties were being used - for instance Tolhurst was widespread in Mid Kent between the wars, and I've seen that analysed at just 2.2% alpha, it was definitely the "cheap and cheerful" hop with great yields of not so good hops (as well as a notoriously poor keeper). One would hope that as premium beers IPAs would get the premium hops like EKG, but when have big brewers ever taken the more expensive option....?

In terms of commercial beers - all the "original" ones have suffered through the 20th century and are now a pale shadow of what they were, your best bet are the breweries that make heritage recipes, such as the guys at the Burton museum and Beer Nouveau (who even made the infamous cock ale for IndyMan this year).

Great info thanks for posting. I also have this book - http://www.durdenparkbeer.org.uk/publications.htm

Which has a couple old pale & IPAs in it if I remember.

I'd like to brew a couple of Ron Pattinson's recipes but I find it hard to get the proper ingredients locally and what's the point if you are subbing in something to take its place - awesome blog though.

 

[MaryB]

I had a Summit Brewing Saga IPA not to long ago... all I could taste for 2 hours was bitterness from hops... Some rate it good, personally? Blech!

 

[patto1ro]

Hi Ron. Glad you replied, as hop storage is something that noone seems to talk about even though it's as important as beer recipes when it comes to working out how old beers would have actually tasted.



I'm interested in the timings of this, because things like ammonia refrigeration didn't come in until the 1880s which is obviously late for IPAs. I've not heard of anyone using ice houses for hops, but maybe they did?

Looking at the climate data, these days you have around 2 months after harvest where just putting hops in a barn in Faversham would leave them at 10-15C, then they wouldn't get above 10C until March. Mebbe knock off 1-2C for climate change but I guess it's not much of a problem until after Easter. Is there any evidence of deliberately brewing IPAs in autumn/winter to capture hops in the best state?

I can't help feeling that there's evidence of this being a factor in the way that Britain has some of the best-storing traditional hops, it feels like a result of concerted selection. Certainly storage stability was a factor in Tolhurst losing out. I'm not sure how sophisticated brewers were about hop varieties - I get the impression that geographical descriptions like "Mid-Kent" persisted until at least the wilt crisis of the mid-20th century, and "Mid-Kent" can cover a multitude of sins (such as Tolhurst). Even now you still see people using "Styrian Goldings" as a generic term for Slovenian hops covering not just Savinjski but derivatives like Celeia etc.

Artificial refrigeration arrived around 1870. But even without it a cellar will keep pretty cool. They're from the 1920's or 1930's.

There's very little loss of alpha acid in the first 12 months:

storage period alpha resin
6.28
5 months 6.22
9 months 5.72
14 months 5.84
19 months 5.15

(The hops were Fuggles.)

I have numbers for how hops deteriorate in cold store or a warehouse.
The hops sold today as EKG aren't necessarily Goldings. Several varities of white bine as sold as EKG.

October was the month for brewing Stock Pale Ales. On Victorian pricee lists it quite often mentions that the Pale Ales were brewed in October.

 

[SlitheryDee]

I don't have enough experience drinking IPAs to have burned out on them. Most of them I didn't like at first taste, but I've grown steadily more tolerant of them the more I drink my own homebrew. I really do like Bell's Two Hearted. Like a lot.

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

I don't have enough experience drinking IPAs to have burned out on them. Most of them I didn't like at first taste, but I've grown steadily more tolerant of them the more I drink my own homebrew. I really do like Bell's Two Hearted. Like a lot.

Pretty sure theres a two hearted clone in recipe section. Its made with all centennial hops I believe