IPA bitterness help

[Upthewazzu]

I appreciate that. One thing to remember though, is that this isn't my recipe. It is the Pliny the elder clone from Morebeer. I haven't started trying to make my own recipe's yet(but plan to soon once I figure out how). The thing I don't understand is how the real Pliny has a ton of IBU's as well but no noticeable bitterness. How are they able to do that when they have almost 200 IBU's?

Maybe after this one, I'll order another Pliny kit from Morebeer, and using all the same ingredients, I will try adjusting nothing but the hop schedule (and cutting the magnum down to 1oz) like many have suggested and see what kind of difference it makes.

You could also try a FWH with the Magnum instead of adding at 90 min. I've never done it myself, but the consensus seems to be that it smooths out a harsh bitterness. Seems like a perfect time to try.

Also wanted to add that most clone recipes I'm seeing online (including the one linked earlier in this thread) are using Columbus hops at 90 instead of Magnum, and nothing at 60min. That could be another thing to look at substituting.

 

[Yooper]

I appreciate that. One thing to remember though, is that this isn't my recipe. It is the Pliny the elder clone from Morebeer. I haven't started trying to make my own recipe's yet(but plan to soon once I figure out how). The thing I don't understand is how the real Pliny has a ton of IBU's as well but no noticeable bitterness. How are they able to do that when they have almost 200 IBU's?

Maybe after this one, I'll order another Pliny kit from Morebeer, and using all the same ingredients, I will try adjusting nothing but the hop schedule (and cutting the magnum down to 1oz) like many have suggested and see what kind of difference it makes.

You probably need to go into the Brew Science area with a question like that!!!!! The reason is very complex, but the gist of it is that alpha acids are only soluble until the wort is saturated with the hops oils. Then they can't isomerize any longer. That amount is +/- 100 IBUs, according to the brewing science folks. So the IBUs we calculate via software are "theoretical", using formulas developed that aren't perfect all but they are the best we have.

The real Pliny the Elder, when tested by a lab, actually clocks in at something like 85 IBUs.

There is also agreement among brewing scientists that about 100 IBUs is the maximum that the human tongue can perceive and also agreement that people can't tell a difference of +/- 5 IBUs in beer.

Other things that go into the perception of bitterness include the make up of the hops, like the cohumulone content, or the myrcene content, plus lots more of the qualities of the hops themselves, and then we can get into the other ingredients also!

For example, a 100 IBU beer in a wort of 1.100 OG with lots of crystal malt won't be very bitter. But a 100 IBU beer that started with wort of 1.040 OGmight feel bitter enough to take off your tooth enamel! That's because of the SG/IBU ratio. In addition, malts with more residual sugar will balance the bitterness so it will seem less bitter, even if the OG and the IBUs are the same.

Add into that the last thing- water. Water with extremely high bicarbonate causing a high mash pH will cause a "harsher" bitterness than using water with less bicarbonate and less mineral content.

Some hops do better with higher sulfate than others- some of our favorite west coast IPAs' hops go great with a higher sulfate, while noble hops from Germany do not. That's another thing to look at- many of the brewers I know adjust the mash pH down and the sulfate level up for pale ales and IPAs.

To have a very high mash pH can mean not just bitterness from the hops, but a much harsher bitterness as well, and excess sulfate increases the perception of dryness- which also can come across as very firm and even harsh.

So one more question on the pH then. What should I be shooting for at both room temp and mash temp?

Also, in BruNwater when it says what my pH will be(say 5.2-5.3), are they referring to the room temp pH?

Yes, always room temperature when anyone talks about "mash pH'.

 

[devilsbeltbrewing]

2oz cascade whole hops in mash for 60mins
2oz Magnum pellet hops@90
1oz Simcoe@45
1oz Columbus@30
2oz Centennial@flameout
1oz Simcoe@flameout

DH: 5 days
3oz Columbus
1oz Centennial
1oz Simcoe

The thing is that rated IBU's are projected at theoretical 198-202(with an actual of 100IBU's). Same as regular Pliny but even with it being that high, real Pliny doesn't have much if any bitterness to me, regardless of the IBU number.

Another thing I have been tossing back and forth is to use a plate filter on the way from the conical to the keg(pushed with co2). Most breweries filter which I wonder if that helps knock out some of the bitterness. I like to drink my beers and not have to sit on them for a month plus.

Thats a lot of hops and especially so early in boil. if doing a 90 min i start with 1 oz at 60min and for 60 min boil usually wait till 30 min mark. recently started steeping hops at 160 degrees after boil to get aroma and flavor but nearly no bitter. i found the more you venture off from a recipe the easier it is to achieve your goal. sometimes a kit or recipe is not going to make a replica of what you expect. also the Alpha in hops usually are not consistent, i've got cascade anywhere from 4-7.5 Alpha, this can also be raising your IBU from desired. i like to use dried grape fruit or orange peel in my steep at end. try to bring out alot of nice soft hop flavor, also add yeast nutrient at end of boil to give yeast more healthy fermentation

 

[BrewinSoldier]

Ok so I was messing around with a recipe(another Pliny clone) that is pretty basic. The grain bill consists of 14lbs of 2row and 4oz of C60.

I was playing around with the water in BruNwater and made a few screenshots. Would someone mind taking a peek and telling me if I am on the right track. I played with quite a few different numbers and this is the most dialed in I could get it. I really like the fact that it tells me exactly how much to add into the sparge water and how much to add into the mash water. They are PDF because I didnt know the best way to put them on here.

View attachment Pliny water adjustment.pdf

View attachment Pliny mash acidification.pdf

Oh and by the way, Thank You very much to all of those who have contributed to this thread so far. It is greatly appreciated.

 

[Yooper]

Ok so I was messing around with a recipe(another Pliny clone) that is pretty basic. The grain bill consists of 14lbs of 2row and 4oz of C60.

I was playing around with the water in BruNwater and made a few screenshots. Would someone mind taking a peek and telling me if I am on the right track. I played with quite a few different numbers and this is the most dialed in I could get it. I really like the fact that it tells me exactly how much to add into the sparge water and how much to add into the mash water. They are PDF because I didnt know the best way to put them on here.

View attachment 343817

View attachment 343818

Oh and by the way, Thank You very much to all of those who have contributed to this thread so far. It is greatly appreciated.

I can't open them on my netbook without saving, so I can't see them.

What is the projected mash pH? And what are the levels of calcium, magnesium, sulfate, chloride, bicarbonate?

 

[BrewinSoldier]

Ok so I entered the BruNwater Pale Ale water profile to match against.

Estimated pH-5.3 without having to add any acids
Calcium-Desired 140/After adjustments 140.5(green)
Magnesium-Desired 18/After adjustements 18(green)
Sulfate-Desired 300/After adjustments 335.7(orange)
Chloride-Desired 55/After adjustments 56.5(green)
Bicarbonate-Desired 110/After adjustments 16(Yellow)-says does not have an ideal range but only needed to get mash ph down to desired level.

The only other ones that were a little off were
Sodium-Desired 25/Actual 8(green)
Alkalinity-Desired 91/Actual 13(yellow)
RA-Desired -20/Actual -98

All others were either dead on or very close.

All I added as far as minerals go:
2.27 grams/gal of Gypsum
.57 grams/gal of Magnesium Chloride

That's all it took and no acids. It gave me the final mash pH of 5.3 after the grain bill. I played around with adding table salt, epsom salt, and calcium chloride but all of those made the numbers go way off target.

 

[scallopking]

Great thread, learned a lot. Thanks OP and everyone. Tagging on.

 

[The_Glue]

I don't think it is simply the problem of adding too much hops.
I mean i could brew 50IBU high residual sugar beers tasting more bitter than commercial theoretical 100+ and 200+ IBU beers.
I think it is water related since my water is really high alkalinity (300ish) and i can set the mash ph to 5.2ish with loads and loads of acid (my water before mashing tastes like lemonade lol) but the bitterness can still end up being harsh.

 

[Yooper]

Ok so I entered the BruNwater Pale Ale water profile to match against.

Estimated pH-5.3 without having to add any acids
Calcium-Desired 140/After adjustments 140.5(green)
Magnesium-Desired 18/After adjustements 18(green)
Sulfate-Desired 300/After adjustments 335.7(orange)
Chloride-Desired 55/After adjustments 56.5(green)
Bicarbonate-Desired 110/After adjustments 16(Yellow)-says does not have an ideal range but only needed to get mash ph down to desired level.

The only other ones that were a little off were
Sodium-Desired 25/Actual 8(green)
Alkalinity-Desired 91/Actual 13(yellow)
RA-Desired -20/Actual -98

All others were either dead on or very close.

All I added as far as minerals go:
2.27 grams/gal of Gypsum
.57 grams/gal of Magnesium Chloride

That's all it took and no acids. It gave me the final mash pH of 5.3 after the grain bill. I played around with adding table salt, epsom salt, and calcium chloride but all of those made the numbers go way off target.

I'd go lower than 300 ppm sulfate if you're looking to reduce the harshness! Maybe start with 150 ppm for this beer, and see how you like it before overdoing it with the sulfate. I would NOT like this beer with 330 ppm of sulfate, for sure.


"Less is more" for sure. I'd go with only only calcium sulfate (gypsum) to get the calcium to 50-100 ppm and the sulfate to 135-150 ppm. Shoot for a mash pH of 5.4 or so (5.3 is fine). The chloride won't hurt a bit, and you may like it so you could keep that in.

 

[BrewinSoldier]

I'd go lower than 300 ppm sulfate if you're looking to reduce the harshness! Maybe start with 150 ppm for this beer, and see how you like it before overdoing it with the sulfate. I would NOT like this beer with 330 ppm of sulfate, for sure.


"Less is more" for sure. I'd go with only only calcium sulfate (gypsum) to get the calcium to 50-100 ppm and the sulfate to 135-150 ppm. Shoot for a mash pH of 5.4 or so (5.3 is fine). The chloride won't hurt a bit, and you may like it so you could keep that in.

That actually seems almost dead on with another thread I found about someone who released a water profile for PTE clone. I would like to find a water profile I can use with all my IPA's and one to use with my wheats and lighter beers.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=128923

 

[PlinyTheMiddleAged]

I'd go lower than 300 ppm sulfate if you're looking to reduce the harshness! Maybe start with 150 ppm for this beer, and see how you like it before overdoing it with the sulfate. I would NOT like this beer with 330 ppm of sulfate, for sure.





"Less is more" for sure. I'd go with only only calcium sulfate (gypsum) to get the calcium to 50-100 ppm and the sulfate to 135-150 ppm. Shoot for a mash pH of 5.4 or so (5.3 is fine). The chloride won't hurt a bit, and you may like it so you could keep that in.

Yooper is right (as usual) about the sulfate levels. I wouldn't shoot for 300 ppm on the water. I sent some Pliny the Elder off to Wards back in November. The report came back with 160 ppm sulfate in the finished beer. I don't know how much you'll get out of the grainbill if any, but I'd keep the water around 150 tops.

My plan is to use Vinny's recipe and some guess at the minerals added to RO water - then, send the finished clone off to Wards to dial in the additions on future brews to get close to the real RR product. Just gotta find a slot in my brewing schedule to make it happen!

Cheers!

Edit: Hmmmmm. I just took another look at the report. It says 160 ppm SO4-S. I think that Bru'N Water says that you multiply that number by 3 to get the sulfate level. So that means 480 - perhaps it really is high? Strange because I don't find the bitterness to be that harsh.

 

[BrewinSoldier]

Ok so yet another question. Is the final Bicarbonate ppm or Alkalinity ppm important? Is there certain numbers for those I should shoot for?

Right now, just using Gypsum, Magnesium Chloride, and some lactic acid this is what I got my numbers to:

Calcium:62.4
Magnesium:18
Sodium:8
Sulfate:148.5
Chloride:56.5
Bicarbonate:-21(this is in the minus, so I wasn't sure if that was ok?)
Cations:4.9
Anions:4.3
Total Hardness:230
Alkalinity:-17(also in the minus)
RA:-73
SO4/CI ratio:2.6

pH ended up at 5.4

Any problems with these numbers?

 

[MapleGroveAleworks]

Your numbers are fine. Hopefully you threw that pH 5.2 stabilizer away.

 

[The_Glue]

Yooper is right (as usual) about the sulfate levels. I wouldn't shoot for 300 ppm on the water. I sent some Pliny the Elder off to Wards back in November. The report came back with 160 ppm sulfate in the finished beer. I don't know how much you'll get out of the grainbill if any, but I'd keep the water around 150 tops.

My plan is to use Vinny's recipe and some guess at the minerals added to RO water - then, send the finished clone off to Wards to dial in the additions on future brews to get close to the real RR product. Just gotta find a slot in my brewing schedule to make it happen!

Cheers!

Edit: Hmmmmm. I just took another look at the report. It says 160 ppm SO4-S. I think that Bru'N Water says that you multiply that number by 3 to get the sulfate level. So that means 480 - perhaps it really is high? Strange because I don't find the bitterness to be that harsh.

Maybe the hopshots help to keep the astringent, "painful" bitterness down.