IPA bitterness help

[BrewinSoldier]

Hey guys! So far to date(IPA wise) I've brewed 3 IPA's. They have all turned out very very bitter and I don't like that. I have done 1 Pliny the elder clone from Morebeer, one Pliny the Younger clone I found online, and am currently trying another Pliny the elder clone from Morebeer which is in the fermenter in the dryhop stage.

I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong. My mash temps are within a degree of my desired temp, my kettle is on propane so I get a vigorous boil, my fermenter temps are within .5 degrees of 68F. I always make a yeast starter and make sure to pitch the pro rate of 1.0(brewersfriend). My sanitization is on point.

The only thing I haven't messed with is my water, but on my last batch of Younger I used spring water from the store. This batch of elder I used filtered tap water(charcoal whole house filter) and added campden tabs in both the HLT and mash tun water. This one I tried using the 5 Star 5.2 mash stabilizer as directed. My mash PH only got to 5.5 via my Milwaukee PH meter.

I have had several bottles of the actual Pliny the Elder so I am very familiar how it tastes. It has a ton of yummy hop flavor and aroma but almost no bitterness at all to me.

Any ideas of what I could be doing wrong?

I am very tempted next time to use the same grain bill for the PTE clone, and most of the hops, but instead of adding hops to the beginning of the 90 min boil, I'll just start adding them with 30mins left in the boil to try and prevent the extreme bitterness. I'm also consider using RO water next time and trying to mess around with BruNwater to build my water up specifically for an IPA. Not sure if either of those will help.

 

[rnm410]

Bitterness dependent on hop acids, amount of hops and boil/chill stand time.

What were your additions and times in the boil kettle?

 

[BrewinSoldier]

2oz cascade whole hops in mash for 60mins
2oz Magnum pellet hops@90
1oz Simcoe@45
1oz Columbus@30
2oz Centennial@flameout
1oz Simcoe@flameout

DH: 5 days
3oz Columbus
1oz Centennial
1oz Simcoe

The thing is that rated IBU's are projected at theoretical 198-202(with an actual of 100IBU's). Same as regular Pliny but even with it being that high, real Pliny doesn't have much if any bitterness to me, regardless of the IBU number.

Another thing I have been tossing back and forth is to use a plate filter on the way from the conical to the keg(pushed with co2). Most breweries filter which I wonder if that helps knock out some of the bitterness. I like to drink my beers and not have to sit on them for a month plus.

 

[McKnuckle]

How about simply reducing the IBU to 70-80 and calling it a day? That's a whale of a hop bill. 2 oz of Magnum for 90 minutes is just all bitter with no flavor to save it. The 45 and 30 minute additions, too, should move into the 20-10 minute flavor range at least. Nearly all they are doing is adding bitterness.

I dunno... if it's too bitter, make it less bitter.

 

[stratslinger]

Check out this link for a Pliny homebrew recipe actually provided by the brewery itself - the hop schedule looks quite a bit different (and a bit less aggressive) than the one you have listed above, and may go a long way to evening out that overly bitter flavor you're getting.

 

[Yooper]

You measured mash pH with a pH meter in all of the worts? The reason I ask is that while 5.5 is ok (although a bit higher than I'd like for a mash pH), it would be hard to get there without using any acid at all in the water or any acid malt, in such a light colored beer as Pliny.

If you use 100% RO water, you may get close to 5.6, but unlikely to get any lower without adding some acid. Did you use anything else? Gypsum, for example?

The flavor impact of a too-high mash pH is harshness. Also, sparging with water that has alkalinity in it creates off-flavors that are harsh and "biting". I bet that is what is going on. This totally sounds like a water issue.

Don't use the "stabilizer" stuff. It doesn't make your mash pH at 5.2 (or any other magical number), and it has a flavor impact.

 

[McKnuckle]

^Good points there. If your pH got to 5.5 at mash temp, it was actually a couple of points higher when adjusted for room temp, which is the baseline reference. If so, high pH harshness is a good bet.

 

[rnm410]

Good recommendations above, pH is important, maybe some grocery store RO water with some calcium additions would be beneficial.

But,

If it is bitterness that is your problem, how about tweaking your hop boil times and amounts. I calculated 200 IBU with 82 of those coming from magnum. I would say a filter is unnecessary.

You might find it favorable to 60 minute 1 oz magnum and scooting all of your late additions (flavor and aroma) 15 minutes later, target 60-120 IBU, taste, modify recipe and rebrew.

2008 BJCP Imperial IPA
60-120 IBU

 

[BrewinSoldier]

Thank you for all of the suggestions so far guys.

So I don't treat my water at all other than the campden. I don't treat the sparge water either. This was the first batch that I've used the 5.2ph stabilizer, and obviously it didn't get my mash to 5.2 so I won't be using it again.

Looks like it's time to jump on BruNwater and start building my mash water and sparge water. It didn't seem too hard when I was messing with it the other day, but who knows if I'm doing it right?? Lol. I basically adjusted until I got everything close to matching the target numbers, and in the final tab my mash was down to 5.3ph.

As far as the PH I measured, it was 15 mins into the mash at 155 degrees. That is the temp Morebeer suggested, and a recently posted article says Russian river mash's at 154, so I was pretty close.

How do you measure mash pH at "room temp"? I'm guessing you just take a small sample of the mash wort about 15 mins in, let it cool to room temp, and check the pH? If so, what are we aiming for at both room temp, as well as while it's hot(152-155)?

Also, I only measured mash pH on one other batch that I messed up and ended up dumping. I went out of a book that said to use phosphoric acid 10% to the water before even adding grains, and getting it down to 5.4 pH. It took so much phosphoric acid I wasn't even sure it was safe to drink. I think it took like 70ml or something like that.

 

[Yooper]

Mash pH readings should be done at room temperature, and so when we say a target of 5.4 for a pH, we're talking about room temperature. Part of that is to save your electrode, as too many hot readings will ruin it completely, and part of it is so we are all on the same page. Even in a brewery, by the time you take the sample and run to the lab, the wort would be cooler than mash temp, so it's just always understood that pH readings are at room temperature (about 70 degrees).
I just fill a shot glass with wort, and put it in a glass of ice water to chill it down fast.

If you didn't use some acid in your mash, I would really doubt your mash pH was 5.5- even with RO water it would be at least 5.6. Using other than RO water, the mash pH could be 6+. That would definitely lead to some very harsh bitterness. Did you calibrate your pH meter right before taking the reading?

To see if we're onto something, I'd suggest buying RO water for your next batch. Those big water machines, like at Wal-Mart, are generally like 35 cents a gallon for RO water, and buying 7 gallons would be a pain, but be a great place to start. Add 1 teaspoon of calcium chloride, and 1 teaspoon of gypsum for hoppy beers, and maybe a little lactic acid or phosphoric acid (we can help with that!), and you should be all set.

 

[slym2none]

Piggybacking on this thread with a related question - so, light colored beers are difficult to get the pH down to acceptable levels, obviously they need some acid of some sort. Now, I don't have a pH meter, so is there a baseline of an amount to start adding to make a difference? I brewed an IPA that I think is delicious, but my brew-bro thinks is too bitter. I was using mostly late-additions with my hops, and it was calculated at 55 IBUs. No way it is too bitter, and now I am thinking it may be that my mash pH was too high and he is tasting this harshness.

Would adding 1oz of acidulated malt help anything at all? Or should I try 4 oz to start with? Again, I know not having a pH reading is hurting me here...

 

[Iseneye]

Also, I only measured mash pH on one other batch that I messed up and ended up dumping. I went out of a book that said to use phosphoric acid 10% to the water before even adding grains, and getting it down to 5.4 pH. It took so much phosphoric acid I wasn't even sure it was safe to drink. I think it took like 70ml or something like that.

Bloody hell, 70ml??? Were you trying to get the plain water down to 5.4 before adding the malts? The malts pull the pH down to say around 5.7-5.8 so you are only needing enough acid to drop it another 0.3-0.4 pH and 70ml is crazy. As a reference I am adding around 3ml of lactic acid to my softish water. You are better off not treating your water than incorrectly treating it.

 

[Iseneye]

Piggybacking on this thread with a related question - so, light colored beers are difficult to get the pH down to acceptable levels, obviously they need some acid of some sort. Now, I don't have a pH meter, so is there a baseline of an amount to start adding to make a difference? I brewed an IPA that I think is delicious, but my brew-bro thinks is too bitter. I was using mostly late-additions with my hops, and it was calculated at 55 IBUs. No way it is too bitter, and now I am thinking it may be that my mash pH was too high and he is tasting this harshness.

Would adding 1oz of acidulated malt help anything at all? Or should I try 4 oz to start with? Again, I know not having a pH reading is hurting me here...

The default answer is get a pH meter, but you can get closeish by getting a water report and using one of the online water calculators (say Bru'n for example). The spreadsheet estimates the mash pH based on your water profile and you can calculate how much acid is required to reach a certain pH.

 

[slym2none]

Thanks! I have my local water report, so I'll take a closer look at these calculators.

 

[rnm410]

Piggybacking on this thread with a related question - so, light colored beers are difficult to get the pH down to acceptable levels, obviously they need some acid of some sort. Now, I don't have a pH meter, so is there a baseline of an amount to start adding to make a difference? I brewed an IPA that I think is delicious, but my brew-bro thinks is too bitter. I was using mostly late-additions with my hops, and it was calculated at 55 IBUs. No way it is too bitter, and now I am thinking it may be that my mash pH was too high and he is tasting this harshness.

Would adding 1oz of acidulated malt help anything at all? Or should I try 4 oz to start with? Again, I know not having a pH reading is hurting me here...

I would follow what yooper said in post #10 to start with, that's easy. Choose one of the various water calculators if you want to dive into it more.

This is a beneficial quick read for all.

http://howtobrew.com/book/section-3/understanding-the-mash-ph/reading-a-water-report
http://howtobrew.com/book/section-3/understanding-the-mash-ph/residual-alkalinity-and-mash-ph
http://howtobrew.com/book/section-3...h-ph/using-salts-for-brewing-water-adjustment

 

[BrewinSoldier]

Hmm, well that makes sense. So the way I did it this last time is calibrate my pH meter in the two solutions, then started testing the mash. I put the meter and temp probe directly into the mash tun and kind of waived it around. So there was grains and wort all around it. Probably not the best way of doing it.

I'm wondering if the 5.2 stabilizer maybe helped drop it down to the 5.50 my pH meter was reading?

I did order a few 6 gallon water jugs so I can start using RO water. All I have used to date is filtered tap and a few batches ago, the one gallon spring water from the store, but even then I still never adjusted my pH. Hopefully that's all it is and once I get my water down it fixes this problem.

So next question, is all RO water created equal? Should I send out a sample to ward labs to get it tested? On BruNwater, everything is zero. I could test the pH with my meter to have a starting pH right?

 

[rnm410]

Hmm, well that makes sense. So the way I did it this last time is calibrate my pH meter in the two solutions, then started testing the mash. I put the meter and temp probe directly into the mash tun and kind of waived it around. So there was grains and wort all around it. Probably not the best way of doing it.

I'm wondering if the 5.2 stabilizer maybe helped drop it down to the 5.50 my pH meter was reading?

I did order a few 6 gallon water jugs so I can start using RO water. All I have used to date is filtered tap and a few batches ago, the one gallon spring water from the store, but even then I still never adjusted my pH. Hopefully that's all it is and once I get my water down it fixes this problem.

So next question, is all RO water created equal? Should I send out a sample to ward labs to get it tested? On BruNwater, everything is zero. I could test the pH with my meter to have a starting pH right?

I've tested grocery store RO machines before. Hardness is in the ppb range and conductivity is usually 1-3 mmhos. i.e. ions are removed and you will have to add in minerals, hitting your pH will be easy then. I would more or less assume grocery RO water would be the same.

I think the general consensus on pH mash temp. vs room temp. is subtract 0.3.

i.e. mash pH in pot 5.7, cooled pH 5.4

 

[slym2none]

I'm wondering if the 5.2 stabilizer maybe helped drop it down to the 5.50 my pH meter was reading?

From what I understand, that stuff is crap and shouldn't be used. It doesn't do what it claims, and has an effect on the flavour of the beer.

 

[TheHopfather]

Dialing in your water and pH is all well and good, and should be pursued, but take a look at that hop bill!

2oz of Magnum at 90 min? The default for Magnum in Beersmith is 12% AA and looks like 90-ish IBUs of pure bitterness. Then you're adding 50-ish more IBU's at 45 min and another 45-ish IBU's at 30 min. Roughly 185 IBU's, all bittering additions.

Why not drop the Magnum addition to something more reasonable, like say 60 IBU's, and move the rest of the hops to 15 min and less? Your beer is bitter because you are adding an insane amount of bittering hops to it.

 

[Yooper]

Piggybacking on this thread with a related question - so, light colored beers are difficult to get the pH down to acceptable levels, obviously they need some acid of some sort. Now, I don't have a pH meter, so is there a baseline of an amount to start adding to make a difference? I brewed an IPA that I think is delicious, but my brew-bro thinks is too bitter. I was using mostly late-additions with my hops, and it was calculated at 55 IBUs. No way it is too bitter, and now I am thinking it may be that my mash pH was too high and he is tasting this harshness.

Would adding 1oz of acidulated malt help anything at all? Or should I try 4 oz to start with? Again, I know not having a pH reading is hurting me here...

It might help- but without knowing where you are starting is like throwing a dart with your eyes close. If you can get a water report with the alkalinity (at a minimum), then you will be able to make adjustments. Or, start with RO water.

Hmm, well that makes sense. So the way I did it this last time is calibrate my pH meter in the two solutions, then started testing the mash. I put the meter and temp probe directly into the mash tun and kind of waived it around. So there was grains and wort all around it. Probably not the best way of doing it.

I'm wondering if the 5.2 stabilizer maybe helped drop it down to the 5.50 my pH meter was reading?

I did order a few 6 gallon water jugs so I can start using RO water. All I have used to date is filtered tap and a few batches ago, the one gallon spring water from the store, but even then I still never adjusted my pH. Hopefully that's all it is and once I get my water down it fixes this problem.

So next question, is all RO water created equal? Should I send out a sample to ward labs to get it tested? On BruNwater, everything is zero. I could test the pH with my meter to have a starting pH right?

No, the 5.2 stuff probably didn't work to reduce your pH appropriately. But next time, calibrate your meter and check the mash pH and you'll see what the pH really is.

Generally, the RO you can buy is pretty much the same and it's not worth getting testing. You could get a TDS meter (they are cheap) and check the TDS in the water, and if it's low, you know the RO membrane is working. For myself at home (I bought an RO machine for myself when I went to 10 gallon batches), I bought an aquarium hardness kit, and use that to check up on my RO system

 

[McKnuckle]

I think the general consensus on pH mash temp. vs room temp. is subtract 0.3. i.e. mash pH in pot 5.7, cooled pH 5.4

It's the other way around. 5.7 pH at room temp will drop to 5.5ish in the mash. But the key is to realize that common discussion about these figures uses the room temp values. Therefore any adjustment is just academic. Well, maybe not... if you are measuring in the mash you do need to be aware of the discrepancy.

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=702.0

 

[rnm410]

It's the other way around. 5.7 pH at room temp will drop to 5.5ish in the mash. But the key is to realize that common discussion about these figures uses the room temp values. Therefore any adjustment is just academic. Well, maybe not... if you are measuring in the mash you do need to be aware of the discrepancy.

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=702.0

I realized that, thinking about my pH probe at work and grabbing hot water samples. Thanks for correcting me.

 

[m00ps]

Piggybacking on this thread with a related question - so, light colored beers are difficult to get the pH down to acceptable levels, obviously they need some acid of some sort. Now, I don't have a pH meter, so is there a baseline of an amount to start adding to make a difference? I brewed an IPA that I think is delicious, but my brew-bro thinks is too bitter. I was using mostly late-additions with my hops, and it was calculated at 55 IBUs. No way it is too bitter, and now I am thinking it may be that my mash pH was too high and he is tasting this harshness.

Would adding 1oz of acidulated malt help anything at all? Or should I try 4 oz to start with? Again, I know not having a pH reading is hurting me here...

Maybe you just gotta tell your brew bro to stay outta the kitchen if he cant take the heat. 55 IBUs???? cmon dude...

FWIW, I use 4-6oz acid malt in all my pale IPAs and Saisons since they have no darker grains to naturally lower the pH. You can go up to at least 8oz (5gal batch) with ZERO flavor contribution.

 

[Mexibilly]

In my extra-humble opinion, I'd cut the 90 minute addition to 1oz, add the rest at 20 or less, use RO water with enough gypsum and CaCl to get you in range and phosphoric to dial in pH.

 

[Upthewazzu]

Dialing in your water and pH is all well and good, and should be pursued, but take a look at that hop bill!

2oz of Magnum at 90 min? The default for Magnum in Beersmith is 12% AA and looks like 90-ish IBUs of pure bitterness. Then you're adding 50-ish more IBU's at 45 min and another 45-ish IBU's at 30 min. Roughly 185 IBU's, all bittering additions.

Why not drop the Magnum addition to something more reasonable, like say 60 IBU's, and move the rest of the hops to 15 min and less? Your beer is bitter because you are adding an insane amount of bittering hops to it.

People are stepping over a dollar to pick up a dime here. This is the obvious culprit. Water is important but sheesh lets step back a second.

The OP is getting all of his/her IBU's from the bittering stage which is way way way too much. If you think the beer is too bitter, why in the world are you making something with 200 IBU's? You're hop schedule is insane.

The HopFather has the right idea here, you need to create more balance with your hop schedule. One ounce of Magnum at 60 (or 90 if you are really dead set on that idea for some reason) will be plenty for what you're trying to accomplish. The rest should come at 15 or later.

 

[McKnuckle]

People are stepping over a dollar to pick up a dime here.

I like that expression. But if you go back to page one, we picked up the dollar right away. And then stepped back because someone pointed out the dime.

Either way, we've got $1.10 and a couple of things for the OP to address.

 

[slym2none]

Maybe you just gotta tell your brew bro to stay outta the kitchen if he cant take the heat. 55 IBUs???? cmon dude...

FWIW, I use 4-6oz acid malt in all my pale IPAs and Saisons since they have no darker grains to naturally lower the pH. You can go up to at least 8oz (5gal batch) with ZERO flavor contribution.

It's not like that - I am a little more lupulin-tolerant than him, but not much. We both enjoy IPAs and DirtWolf is one of our common favourites. So maybe he can detect something I am not capable of, is what I am thinking.

Thanks for the info, I might try adding 2oz to my next batch of light-coloured beer to see if it makes a difference.

 

[BrewinSoldier]

People are stepping over a dollar to pick up a dime here. This is the obvious culprit. Water is important but sheesh lets step back a second.

The OP is getting all of his/her IBU's from the bittering stage which is way way way too much. If you think the beer is too bitter, why in the world are you making something with 200 IBU's? You're hop schedule is insane.

The HopFather has the right idea here, you need to create more balance with your hop schedule. One ounce of Magnum at 60 (or 90 if you are really dead set on that idea for some reason) will be plenty for what you're trying to accomplish. The rest should come at 15 or later.

I appreciate that. One thing to remember though, is that this isn't my recipe. It is the Pliny the elder clone from Morebeer. I haven't started trying to make my own recipe's yet(but plan to soon once I figure out how). The thing I don't understand is how the real Pliny has a ton of IBU's as well but no noticeable bitterness. How are they able to do that when they have almost 200 IBU's?

Maybe after this one, I'll order another Pliny kit from Morebeer, and using all the same ingredients, I will try adjusting nothing but the hop schedule (and cutting the magnum down to 1oz) like many have suggested and see what kind of difference it makes.

 

[BrewinSoldier]

So one more question on the pH then. What should I be shooting for at both room temp and mash temp?

Also, in BruNwater when it says what my pH will be(say 5.2-5.3), are they referring to the room temp pH?

 

[TheHopfather]

So one more question on the pH then. What should I be shooting for at both room temp and mash temp?

Also, in BruNwater when it says what my pH will be(say 5.2-5.3), are they referring to the room temp pH?

Forget about mash temp altogether. pH is measured at room temp, period. BruNWater is talking about room temp and all the recommendations in this thread are room temp.