IPA assistance to improve my next batch

[Scout001]

G'day Brewers,

I encountered a bit of an enigma with an IPA I recently finished. After I bottled and cracked them after the first couple weeks, it was fantastic and came out exactly how I expected they would, even better. Since i was tearing through them so fast, I set back a 12 pack and sat on them for a couple more weeks so I can enjoy a couple other brews I had finished out.

Earlier this weekend, I chilled a couple more bottles and drank them last night. They transformed from this wonderful IPA to an aromaless, kind of dank, dry, boring beer; the bitter was there but it was not near what it was after the first couple times I sessioned with them.

I guess the biggest thing here, is I understand that beer will transform over time, but it seemed to be a massive transformation. Why would the aroma and the upfront hop flavor disappear so quickly? I expected degradation like this over months, not weeks.

My recipe scaled down from a 5.5 gallon recipe I found online; some of you may recognize it, I think its a common recipe. I hit all my targets within 1 to 2 points and mash temperature was dead on:


Method:All Grain
Style:American IPA
Boil Time:90 min
Batch Size: 3 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 4.5 gallons
Boil Gravity:1.042 (recipe based estimate)
Efficiency: 70% (brew house)
Source:HomeBrewTalk
Original Gravity: 1.063
Final Gravity: 1.018
ABV (standard): 5.92%
IBU (rager): 66.1
SRM (morey): 6.48

5.75 lb American - Pale 2-Row

0.5 lb American - Caramel / Crystal 20L

6 oz American - Munich - Light 10L

6 oz American - Carapils (Dextrine Malt)

6 oz Torrified Wheat

0.5 oz Chinook Pellet Boil 30 min

0.75 oz Cascade Leaf/Whole Boil 30 min

0.25 oz Willamette Pellet Boil 15 min

0.75 oz Cascade Leaf/Whole Boil 15 min

0.5 oz Willamette Pellet Boil 5 min

1 oz Cascade Leaf/Whole Dry Hop 14 days

11 qt Mash-In Infusion 154 F 60 min

4 qt Mash-Out Temperature 168 F 10 min Hold

8 qt Sparge 168 F 10 min Hold

Starting Mash Thickness: 1.5 qt/lb

Pitched SAF-05 and fermented at 68 degrees for 10 days, dryhopped for an additional 14 days.

The 30 min. bittering addition was either part of the original recipe or it was a technique I read on the forums somewhere; that was a 1st time experiment, otherwise I boil 60-90 min on my other recipes. Please keep in mind this was an ~3 gallon recipe and I bottled 2.25 gal.

Any advice on how to do a better job of retaining hop flavor/aroma? Maybe a possible explanation for why it degraded so fast? Any adjustments to the recipe you can recommend? I will try this again in the next couple weeks with recommended tweaks. I am going to do a 60 min hop addition the next time. Trying to find my summer IPA sipper.

 

[Smellyglove]

I don't think there's anything wrong with your recipe. It's just that aroma and taste from hops fade with time. And yes, they don't need much time to just be a memory. Currently sitting with a "proper" hopped cascade pale ale (IPA-ish hopped) and even though the taste itself has met its equlibrium, the aroma just isn't there, one week after. Less harsh bitterness, but also less aroma.

Did you drink out of the same glass? (if you drink from glass). A tulip-shaped glass is as important as the last 1/2oz you dry hop with.

 

[kaconga]

Storage temp has a huge effect on hops. If they were stored warm then they will change more than if stored cold.

 

[Smellyglove]

By the way. If you want to do a 60 min hop addition next time, that addition will only contribute to more bitterness, which you said was intact at the later sampling. You have to find a middle way, more late hops will make the beer "last" longer when it comes to taste, but will also be more powerful the sooner you drink it.

I'd just have some friends over and drink it fresh all at once

 

[Scout001]

I did not realize the type of glass you use for that style of beer mattered. I drink out of a fluted pilsner for all of my brews. Going shopping this weekend. Thank you for that.


I store them covered, along with my other beers, in a heated den, probably around 75 and upwards to 80. I use this spot to finish during bottle conditioning, but again didn't realize I need to treat IPAs cooler. I will move future batches to my fermenting room. Thank you for this recommendation.

 

[Smellyglove]

I did not realize the type of glass you use for that style of beer mattered. I drink out of a fluted pilsner for all of my brews. Going shopping this weekend. Thank you for that.


I store them covered, along with my other beers, in a heated den, probably around 75 and upwards to 80. I use this spot to finish during bottle conditioning, but again didn't realize I need to treat IPAs cooler. I will move future batches to my fermenting room. Thank you for this recommendation.

With a tulip you will notice a difference with beers that are hop-driven. You'll not regret

I think you misunderstood. I think he ment the hops themselves. Not the beer.

 

[Scout001]

What temperatures do you all store your beers at? Do you raise the temperatures for bottle conditioning and then store them, or do you just bottle and stick them in a cool environment immediately? I am pretty sure this would explain why all my beers seem to transform so quickly, although none as quick as this IPA.

 

[Scout001]

With a tulip you will notice a difference with beers that are hop-driven. You'll not regret

I think you misunderstood. I think he ment the hops themselves. Not the beer.

Oh, okay, yes, I thought he meant the storage temperature for my beer. All my hops go into the fridge immediately after purchase. I store my left-overs the same way but try to brew with them inside the first 6 weeks or so. This recipe was all freshly bought with plenty of expiration date left over.

 

[Scout001]

By the way. If you want to do a 60 min hop addition next time, that addition will only contribute to more bitterness, which you said was intact at the later sampling. You have to find a middle way, more late hops will make the beer "last" longer when it comes to taste, but will also be more powerful the sooner you drink it.

I'd just have some friends over and drink it fresh all at once

So perhaps a 2-step hop addition? Maybe the first addition at 14 days, then another 1/2 oz or so 3-5 days before bottling?

 

[Smellyglove]

What temperatures do you all store your beers at? Do you raise the temperatures for bottle conditioning and then store them, or do you just bottle and stick them in a cool environment immediately? I am pretty sure this would explain why all my beers seem to transform so quickly, although none as quick as this IPA.

Bottle and place in room temperature. With IPA you'd want the carbonation to be done faster, to avoid the aroma to fade, but you know, more time = better beer etc.

I want to edit my recommondation on the tulip glass, the one you want for an IPA is this kind:

http://theaposition.com/tombedell/wp-content/uploads/sites/15/2013/05/BR-GR.jpg
They dont expand at the nozzle, which a tulip actually does. Close, but not the same.

Edit: Edited link.

 

[Smellyglove]

I didn't get that two step-addition-idea of yours.

 

[Scout001]

I didn't get that two step-addition-idea of yours.

To help retain more aroma over a longer time period. If I dryhop heavier, would I throw them all in at one time at the start of the 14 days, or would you recommend a 2 step hop addition. Some at 14 days and then more hops 3-5 days out before bottling. Or does it really matter as long as I use more hops in the DH?

 

[Homercidal]

I would store the bottles for 3 weeks in a warm (70-80) place for carbonation. Shen they are carbonated, shift them to someplace cooler, like 50s. Hops tend to fade over time and the warmer the beer is stored, the faster the hops will fade. IPAs are generally best when fresh, and sometimes hops can fade quickly.

Dry hops are an aroma hop only. Use more if you like, but it won't matter if you add them all at once or twice. Remember that hops will soak up more beer if you add more. And more additions means a (slightly, if you are careful) better chance of oxidation and infection.

Just add them any time after the initial fermentation and after Krausen has dropped.

 

[hotspurdotus]

So perhaps a 2-step hop addition? Maybe the first addition at 14 days, then another 1/2 oz or so 3-5 days before bottling?

I've been picking the brains of my hop head friends recently, trying to brew the best IPA for my purposes.

Several friends have told me that dry hopping tends to fade quickly. For bottled IPAs that will be around several months I'm better off doing with a whirlpool/hop stand and a short dry hop.

My most recent recipe included a 45 minute hop stand with 3 hop additions (0, 15, and 30 minutes after flameout) and a 2 day dry hop.

 

[benco]

I would chill your beer after it's conditioned, I think it would retain more hop flavor. As many people do, I've been doing most hops at end. Flameout and don't remember what it's called, but hops at around 190. Also I dry hop only once, no less than 3oz in a bag to help with flavor. I'm usually drinking it in about 3 week, the quicker the better for me. One more thing, it just might be me but, I think it has more flavor in the keg, I know you bottle. Also you can dry hop in a keg. That's real good!!! Good luck brewing!

 

[Smellyglove]

I'm not sure actually.

The way I'm thinking right now is the more hops later on is better, but you still want to give them enough time to "settle" in your beer. Someone else should chime in on this.

You do not want to dry hop before primary fermentation is over (when it bubbles the most), because then all your aroma will just be blown out of the airlock.

My thought on dry-hopping-timing is that you want to dry hop after the beer has produced most of it's co2 and blown it out, and still have enough contact-time for the hops to be absorbed into the beer. Even if primary fermentation is over, the beer still has some co2 in it, you might want to rock your fermentor to release this co2, and then dry hop.

 

[Scout001]

I am absorbing the information everyone is providing and it is making sense to me.

One related question - I primed at 3 gallons, but only bottled just over 2 1/4 gallons, so there is quite a bit of over-carbonation in the remaining batch (not gushers, just huge, slow dissipating head). Could overcarbonation have contributed to a rapid loss of hop flavor and aroma?

 

[Smellyglove]

I am absorbing the information everyone is providing and it is making sense to me.

One related question - I primed at 3 gallons, but only bottled just over 2 1/4 gallons, so there is quite a bit of over-carbonation in the remaining batch (not gushers, just huge, slow dissipating head). Could overcarbonation have contributed to a rapid loss of hop flavor and aroma?

Spank me if I'm wrong. But I don't think so.

You overcarbonation (even though it's more than likely fine) is a constant. You got the same carbonation levels in all your beers. The only thing that changed was the time you drank them at.

If you drank the early ones "too early" then less gas would push the aroma out, other than that I'd still stand by "hops fade".

 

[Scout001]

I would chill your beer after it's conditioned, I think it would retain more hop flavor. As many people do, I've been doing most hops at end. Flameout and don't remember what it's called, but hops at around 190. Also I dry hop only once, no less than 3oz in a bag to help with flavor. I'm usually drinking it in about 3 week, the quicker the better for me. One more thing, it just might be me but, I think it has more flavor in the keg, I know you bottle. Also you can dry hop in a keg. That's real good!!! Good luck brewing!

+1 I concur, kegging is in the cards for a future time. Upfront cost is about $700 for 4 kegs, CO2 tank, hardware, keezer, etc... Im saving for it, but maybe in the next 4-5 months, Ill be there.

 

[Scout001]

Spank me if I'm wrong. But I don't think so.

You overcarbonation (even though it's more than likely fine) is a constant. You got the same carbonation levels in all your beers. The only thing that changed was the time you drank them at.

If you drank the early ones "too early" then less gas would push the aroma out, other than that I'd still stand by "hops fade".

I appreciate all of the input. Ill plan my next trip to the LHBS and give her another shot. Thank you.

 

[Smellyglove]

I appreciate all of the input. Ill plan my next trip to the LHBS and give her another shot. Thank you.

Don't forget the glass and good luck

 

[kaconga]

Just wanted to clarify my earlier statement since it caused some confusion. I was referring to the storage temp of the beer. All staling reactions are chemical in nature and all chemical reactions occur faster at higher temperatures. Storing beer at cellar temps keeps the beer tasting fresher longer.