Intertap beer faucets

[day_trippr]

For the record, I know PP is smarter than that missive indicates.

Also, for the record, I am the named inventor on over a dozen US and international utility patents and a named contributor on a lot more, and am not a fan of infringement or contributing to the financial benefit of same...

Cheers!

 

[doug293cz]

Pfft. Do you do a patent search on every product you buy? Of course not. And, BTW, given the irresponsibility of the US patent office, the entire patenting thing is irrelevant and just a way for lawyers to stay busy. I've been involved in this stuff (patents, which I have, and infringement lawsuits) for a long time and it's just rubbish.

I have a similar low opinion of the state of the US Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO) and patent law, and for pretty much the same reasons as you. Although I have not been involved with infringement suits (knock on wood), I am an inventor on 33 US patents. So, I know what kind of crap goes into many of them, the games that are played in order to get them issued, and the low quality and limited coverage of what seems to be most of them.

I took a look at the Ventmatic patent, and whether or not Intertap infringes looks to hinge on the interpretation the patent courts give to the phrase "disposed adjacent to." If it can be interpreted as "mounted on" then Intertap would appear to infringe, otherwise maybe not. The replaceable spout tips appear to be not be a problem, as in order to infringe the removability would have to allow cleaning of the valve seat, which it doesn't appear to do with either the Ventmatic designs or the Intertap design.

Edit: As an aside: looking at the patents referenced by the Ventmatic patent, it appears that the forward sealing tap was invented long before the rear sealing tap.

Brew on

 

[afro_lou]

Welp, looks like I'll have to buy a bunch more intertaps before they get shut down... I do NOT want my taps to be mismatched.

 

[Yesfan]

Welp, looks like I'll have to buy a bunch more intertaps before they get shut down... I do NOT want my taps to be mismatched.

I bought mine yesterday. I got one tap, in case the stout spout didn't fit my 425s. I mainly want a nitro setup.


I haven't read the patent link, nor wish to if it's a long read, but is the main infringement issue with Intertap the screw on spouts, or the fact it's a forward sealing design all together? If it's the latter, then how has Perlick went on to produce the 525 and 630 without any issues?

 

[JoshuaW]

I bought mine yesterday. I got one tap, in case the stout spout didn't fit my 425s. I mainly want a nitro setup.


I haven't read the patent link, nor wish to if it's a long read, but is the main infringement issue with Intertap the screw on spouts, or the fact it's a forward sealing design all together? If it's the latter, then how has Perlick went on to produce the 525 and 630 without any issues?

It's the shuttle based forward sealing design that the other users are taking issue with. Perlick, as you probably know, uses a slightly different sealing method.

 

[cfrazier77]

Williams is running all Intertap 20% off until Sunday night or out of stock.

 

[okiedog]

Vent-Matic saying that does not make it so. Someone can make improvements to the design and sell it as a new product. It happens all the time.

It's not really fair to blindly take the word of one company and accuse two other companies of dishonesty. William's has been good to me, and I will give them the benefit of the doubt.

I've ordered from William's brewing several times, and have never had a problem with them or their products. They appear to be a very reputable company. I don't blame them in the least.

 

[cfrazier77]

It's the shuttle based forward sealing design that the other users are taking issue with. Perlick, as you probably know, uses a slightly different sealing method.

Vent-Matic did not invent the shuttle design. Here is a picture of a tap from the 30s I believe. I could be wrong on the age but it is much older than the first Vent-Matic.



Here is a picture of it apart. It uses a shuttle and a forward seal. Vent-Matic took this design and made it MUCH better.



It is up to the lawyers to determine if Intertap is enough different to not be an infringement. It may be infringing, it may not be. We have to wait to see as non of us here are patent experts or attorneys. The fact that these issues require patent attorneys is a whole other mess.

 

[passedpawn]

For the record, I know PP is smarter than that missive indicates.

Also, for the record, I am the named inventor on over a dozen US and international utility patents and a named contributor on a lot more, and am not a fan of infringement or contributing to the financial benefit of same...

Cheers!

haha, you might have me confused with someone else!

Re: topic, I don't dig it when somebody comes on here claiming patent infringement. That's a matter for others, not this forum. If it's for sale, we should buy it without guilt.

I wonder how many people own iPhones. Those things probably violate a ton of old patents out there. No doubt there's active litigation round the clock for Apple. Same goes for any successful product. In design circles it's said that the benchmark of success is when you're sued.

 

[doug293cz]

Vent-Matic did not invent the shuttle design. Here is a picture of a tap from the 30s I believe. I could be wrong on the age but it is much older than the first Vent-Matic.



Here is a picture of it apart. It uses a shuttle and a forward seal. Vent-Matic took this design and made it MUCH better.



It is up to the lawyers to determine if Intertap is enough different to not be an infringement. It may be infringing, it may not be. We have to wait to see as non of us here are patent experts or attorneys. The fact that these issues require patent attorneys is a whole other mess.

That old tap pretty much invalidates the Ventmatic patent as far as I can tell. If I were Intertap's lawyer, I would really want to know more about that tap.

Brew on

 

[cfrazier77]

That old tap pretty much invalidates the Ventmatic patent as far as I can tell. If I were Intertap's lawyer, I would really want to know more about that tap.

Brew on

It says on it Central Brass MFG. CO Cleveland

But, this is the way all faucets were before the rear sealing faucets. The good part about rear seal is that the seals for the handle did not have to be pressure rated anymore. With a forward seal design the handle mechanism is under the pressure of the beer and can have a leak there.

The sad part is Intertap's lawyer I wish this was easier for both parties....

 

[meckisland]

20% off thru Sunday at Williams Brewey

 

[cfrazier77]

Wonder if Williams is having the sale to get rid of their inventory and then wash their hands of this?

 

[PeteNMA]

Unlikely. If a court decided that a patent was being violated, then even someone merely selling the infringing product is also liable and can have money extracted. Just another reason why parents make absolutely no sense and are a major force in repressing innovation in the US.

 

[imasickboy]

I just ordered some. A stainless forward sealing faucet for HALF of the cost of a Ventmatic or Perlick? Yup, yup, yup.

I have a friend in Australia, so I might ask him about getting me some of the shanks and springs since they're not yet available in the US.

 

[PeteNMA]

I'm certainly tempted by the price.

 

[BBBF]

argghh... I waited too long. They are out of the stout attachment, which was the only thing I was really interested in.

 

[HLSheppard]

argghh... I waited too long. They are out of the stout attachment, which was the only thing I was really interested in.

I haven't messed with beer gas/stout attachments at all - but would there by any value to using the stout attachment with just normal Co2?

 

[day_trippr]

I haven't messed with beer gas/stout attachments at all - but would there by any value to using the stout attachment with just normal Co2?

Stout faucets are designed to operate at rather high pressure compared to a "regular" faucet - and beer gas makes that work without resulting in over-carbed kegs.

Using straight CO2 at high pressure would work - but you'd have to then shut off the gas to the keg, vent it, and reset the head space pressure to what'll keep the beer properly carbed...

Cheers!

 

[BBBF]

Not really. The stout faucet works by forcing a low carbonated beer with high pressure through the little holes in the stout faucet disk. I guess you could turn your CO2 up to 30psi, pour a beer, turn your pressure back down to a real low setting and release the pressure from your keg.

 

[passedpawn]

Stout faucets are designed to operate at rather high pressure compared to a "regular" faucet - and beer gas makes that work without resulting in over-carbed kegs.

Using straight CO2 at high pressure would work - but you'd have to then shut off the gas to the keg, vent it, and reset the head space pressure to what'll keep the beer properly carbed...

Cheers!

Not really. The stout faucet works by forcing a low carbonated beer with high pressure through the little holes in the stout faucet disk. I guess you could turn your CO2 up to 30psi, pour a beer, turn your pressure back down to a real low setting and release the pressure from your keg.

Wait wait. You guys have missed the easiest solution. Just carbonate to 12psi as usual, but raise your keg (or keezer) 42 ft above the tap. Problem solved.

 

[Helper]

Apparently something came out of the entire patent infringement thing because as of this morning (after the 20% sale) William's Brewing no longer has Intertap products on the site. Maybe Vent-Matic contacted them.

 

[doug293cz]

Apparently something came out of the entire patent infringement thing because as of this morning (after the 20% sale) William's Brewing no longer has Intertap products on the site. Maybe Vent-Matic contacted them.

Could be. Even if the Ventmatic patent wouldn't hold up to a court challenge, I doubt William's wants to spend the megabucks to make that happen (and yes, patent challenges often cost megabucks.)

Brew on

 

[JoshuaW]

Could be. Even if the Ventmatic patent wouldn't hold up to a court challenge, I doubt William's wants to spend the megabucks to make that happen (and yes, patent challenges often cost megabucks.)

Brew on

Vent-Matic cant even keep stock on its own product, so I seriously dont think Vent-Matic has the "mega bucks" to fight a patent battle, much less a long, expensive one. Either William's is doing it to be courteous, or they are simply out of stock and not expecting for some time.

 

[PeteNMA]

If Vent-matic really did have a lawyer send a cease and desist letter to Williams (purely speculation here) then the smart thing for Williams to do would be to cease and desist. As the challenged party, Williams would be the ones sinking lots of money into things to try and get a date in court.

Not saying that's what happened here, but the heap of awful mess which is the patent system sets things up this way. If you are threatened by someone wielding a patent, it's very hard for you to fight it. See all the pseudo companies suing the tech companies using patents which never should have been granted. The patent system is a vast tax on innovation and manufacturing in the US.

 

[passedpawn]

Apparently something came out of the entire patent infringement thing because as of this morning (after the 20% sale) William's Brewing no longer has Intertap products on the site. Maybe Vent-Matic contacted them.

From Williams: "Intertap products are now sold out, and we do not have an in stock date."

 

[day_trippr]

From Williams: "Intertap products are now sold out, and we do not have an in stock date."

This thread is gonna need hella more popcorn...

Cheers!

 

[cfrazier77]

I talked with Williams on the phone today, I was told that they do not know if they will get anymore. If they do they said they would send out an email.

 

[wpshadowens]

I got in an order yesterday too but this afternoon I got an email stating my order was cancelled. They gave me this reason which it total bs:

We did not receive payment with your last order. For security reasons, we have had to cancel this order.

If you paid via credit card, this could have been due to a invalid credit card billing address (the address the bank has on file for your card must match the billing address you provide), or a decline issued by your bank. It could also be due to having information entered wrong (security code, expiration date). Please resubmit after checking your address and or checking with your issuing bank.

Called my bank, no issues with my card and the purchase shows up on my account as pending. I called Williams and they said they cancelled my order due to not having as many in stock as they thought they had. They told me the same thing, that they would contact me when/if they get more in but said it could be months.

 

[wpshadowens]

Ironically I just got an email from Williams saying the stout taps are back in stock. Not to be found on their website though.