Well, I asked for their permission, so I'd prefer to wait at least a full business day first. If they don't get back to me by tomorrow evening, I'll post it in this thread.
Intertap beer faucets
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Well, I asked for their permission, so I'd prefer to wait at least a full business day first. If they don't get back to me by tomorrow evening, I'll post it in this thread.
You went through all this trouble and got on a soapbox and everything, why not just post it? I don't think Ventmatic is going to sue if you do.
I don't see why you're making a big deal of this. The screw on spouts seem to be the only thing in common with the Ventmatics as others seem to indicate the closing mechanism is different and the diameter of the spout is different due to the auto shut off spring. You stated you have the Perlick 425, which is a knock off, so if you feel so strongly about the Intertaps infringing on Ventmatic's patent, why did you buy the 425s? Just seems like a double standard to me.
Back on topic.
Those who have these taps, does the accessories work with the Perlick 425 or Ventmatic? I wouldn't mind being able to turn one of my taps to a stout faucet. I have the growler filler and cleaning adapter from CHI and I know those work on my Perlicks. Just wondering if Intertap's spouts also work.
Well, shoot. This thread has now not only convinced me to buy one (got it last week), but now made me feel like a jerk for buying one.
Thanks.
Anyway, I hated my perlick, now I love the Intertap! If there is some sort of patent infringement, let the lawyers figure it out.
Thanks.
Anyway, I hated my perlick, now I love the Intertap! If there is some sort of patent infringement, let the lawyers figure it out.
EJay
Well-Known Member
What did you hate about Perlick? I ask because I'm new to kegging and my state-of-the-art system is a plastic picnic tap, and I'm trying to decide between all the options at all the price points.
Actually, pretty much the entire design of the function of the faucet as a faucet is exactly like the ventmatic. So much so, that I would be pretty confident that if these were manufactured in the USA, there would already be a hefty lawsuit. That is really the problem here, and why these are available though, they aren't manufactured here, and IP laws are difficult to enforce internationally - also quite expensive.
As to why I had the 425ss, it was because ventmatics were not available for years. Once they became available again, I bought them immediately. I no longer have the 425ss.
Also, I consider the Intellectual Property to be quite germane to the topic at hand, and in my opinion should be important to us as homebrewers. If we don't stand up for those that are innovating for us, we are hurting future innovations in the field.
As I said before, I want to provide ventmatic with an appropriate amount of time to decline for me to post their email. A singular email is different than an online posting, and I want to show them as much respect as possible.
Again, this may or may not be important to everyone (obviously, you feel different than I do), but I do think that we can agree that everyone should have as much information as possible to be able to make an educated decision.
I assume most that bought this counterfeit faucet didn't know about the design characteristics of the ventmatic faucet, or even know that they have patents for the unique forward sealing design. I've followed ventmatic for about a decade at this point (the story is long and complicated), so when I saw these new faucets, it struck me immediately. Most posters in this forum most likely do not know the history compared to those of us who have been part of this community when the forward sealing design just came out (trust me, it was extraordinary).
I'd rather this not turn into an argument, I'm simply trying to present facts as best I can.
Patents work a little differently than as being discussed. Patients not only affect the country of manufacture, but also the country of sale. So, if Vent-Matic has a current patent they can legally prevent the sale of these in America with a simple cease and desist letter.
I know this from the roller skate and hockey industry. I have family in that field and almost none of those products are made in the US, they are made in various countries like China, Thailand, and Mexico. But the patents are filed in the US. Infringing products brought into the US can and do get shut down pretty quickly. If you have high priced lawyers it can be drug out, but it still comes to an end. This is exactly what recently happened with Samsung and Apple phones, neither which is made in the US.
So the question is does Vent-Matic have valid current patent? Patents do expire after a number of years.
I know this from the roller skate and hockey industry. I have family in that field and almost none of those products are made in the US, they are made in various countries like China, Thailand, and Mexico. But the patents are filed in the US. Infringing products brought into the US can and do get shut down pretty quickly. If you have high priced lawyers it can be drug out, but it still comes to an end. This is exactly what recently happened with Samsung and Apple phones, neither which is made in the US.
So the question is does Vent-Matic have valid current patent? Patents do expire after a number of years.
fwiw, Here is the key patent in question, with a filing date of Dec 13, 2001.
As this is a utility patent filed after June 8, 1995, "in the United States, under current patent law, the term of patent, provided that maintenance fees are paid on time" is 20 years...
Cheers!
[edit/ps] If you go to the end of that linked page you'll see an array of related patent references - including a few from competitors - and some interesting faucet designs...
As this is a utility patent filed after June 8, 1995, "in the United States, under current patent law, the term of patent, provided that maintenance fees are paid on time" is 20 years...
Cheers!
[edit/ps] If you go to the end of that linked page you'll see an array of related patent references - including a few from competitors - and some interesting faucet designs...
JoshuaW
Well-Known Member
As far as the patent issues, of course Vent-matic is going to think they are infringing, why would they want competitors! From the design, it looks to me like Intertap has made adequate improvements. I'm not a patent lawyer though, and even if I was, this isn't our battle. Patent infringement isn't the copying of an idea, but rather copying the execution. Intertap isn't from a country that is known for knock offs, so I trust them to have done their due diligence. If they are delivering a superior value, I'm interested. Whether or not they get sued doesn't impact me.
With that said, I can appreciate the level of respect that people have for manufacturers in this hobby, and I think the fact we are having this discussion at all is very cool. Hopefully it will turn out that everything is on the up and up so we can all enjoy seeing some competition in this area where it is severely lacking.
With that said, I can appreciate the level of respect that people have for manufacturers in this hobby, and I think the fact we are having this discussion at all is very cool. Hopefully it will turn out that everything is on the up and up so we can all enjoy seeing some competition in this area where it is severely lacking.
OP
OP
Now, you have me wondering: did Perlick steal the forward seal design from Ventmatic? Didn't Ventmatic precede Perlick by a few years?
The short of it that I recall now, is that Perlick did not have proper rights to use the design.
The longer version deals with a lot of patent law (which I've forgotten a lot of the terms) when a business goes out of business, and the patents were transferred to a third party, things moved around, came back to original patent holder, perlick had to stop manufacturing and selling the 425ss, and thus developed the perl line. You will notice that there is no removable spout, and no shuttle on the newer ones from Perlick. This is all from memory, but that should give you a general idea of what happened.
I am now on all 650ss faucets because I need the flow control for my particular setup. If I could use regular faucets, I would be using only ventmatic faucets. The machining, finish, reliability, and overall quality are top notch on the ventmatic faucets. The ones I had, I had used for at least 9 years, and when I took them off, they still looked fantastic.
There's at least five years of history involved, and we're not privy to the details. On the face of it, the 425 did appear to violate US6457614, and the product was indeed removed from the market.
But what we don't know is if there were any agreements between the parties involved prior to production that later were essentially annulled, or whether that was a flat-out lift...
Cheers!
But what we don't know is if there were any agreements between the parties involved prior to production that later were essentially annulled, or whether that was a flat-out lift...
Cheers!
OP
OP
So... coming up with a design for a better mouse trap isn't as easy as lifting at least some elements from an existing design. Kinda makes me just want to use some simple valve istsead. I've seen pictures of some German (I think they're German) beer faucets that don't look anything like any other beer faucet I've seen. I believe the handle is mounted to the side, instead of on top.
The Europeans seem fond of rotary valves, I see them a lot when I travel Over There.
One can conjure up all kinds of cool looking faucets if you don't mind a lot of air-exposed bits - these are pretty much the opposite of "forward seal" designs...
Cheers!
One can conjure up all kinds of cool looking faucets if you don't mind a lot of air-exposed bits - these are pretty much the opposite of "forward seal" designs...
Cheers!
There are a lot of faucet designs that work fine in commercial establishments since they use most faucets daily. The big benefit of the forward sealing ones for us homebrewers is that we can go days or even weeks without pouring a beer and the forward seal will open and work perfectly.
I've been watching this thread from our aussie friends related to these faucets.
http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/87902-keg-king-intertap/
http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/87902-keg-king-intertap/
I'm sure that my experience with Perlicks is pretty non-standard, as they are very highly rated. Probably also due to inexperience at first.
Basically, my 425 worked fine at first, but when I started to take it apart for deep cleans, it started losing its ability to seal properly. Sometimes it would be fine, then half a keg later it would stop sealing. I'd have to take it off, take it apart, clean and lube everything, put it all back together, and hope for the best.
I don't have experience with the newest Perlicks either, so they may be better.
All in all, I like the feel of the intertap much better so far, it has a more "solid" feel. Plus, the price point for the all stainless version is very nice.
Anyway, ymmv.
Savagejair
Well-Known Member
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Look like the vent matic tap
OP
OP
This morning I went on the Vent-matic site for the first time. Intertap's faucets with the shuttle design sure looks a lot like Vent-matics. Knowing that Vent-matic is 100% made in USA, and seeing the high quality look of their faucets and accessories on their site makes me want them. They are quite a bit more expensive than Perlick, but I guess you get what you pay for.
http://www.vent-matic.com/
http://www.vent-matic.com/
HLSheppard
Well-Known Member
Totally agree. My issue is they are often out of stock... :-(
Replace the o-ring - problem solved. Old o-rings get hard and need to periodically be replaced. The 425's have never had any inherent sealing problems (unlike the 525's).
PlexVector
Mellow Goose Brewing
Yep; Everything says "Out of Stock."
OP
OP
Yet another forward seal design:
http://www.kegconnection.com/cmb-v3s-forward-seal-creamer-stainless-steel-faucet-compact/
http://www.kegconnection.com/cmb-v3s-forward-seal-creamer-stainless-steel-faucet-compact/
OP
OP
If you notice on Vent-matic's website, they tell you it takes 7-10 days for an order. To me, that means that they aren't a mass produced, high volume operation.
HLSheppard
Well-Known Member
The spouts are not the same as the Ventmatic. I have Ventmatic and the spouts on the Intertaps have a larger thread than the spouts on the Ventmatic. Someone said that the spouts on the Intertap will fit on the Perlick 425.
OP
OP
I like supporting small operations as long as they have quality products, and stand behind them. On the other hand, poor customer service can be a deal breaker.
I totally agree. I've not experience bad service from Vent-Matic though. I ordered two faucets when they were shown to be in stock, was told when they would be shipped and told again when they actually shipped. No surprises, and the quality of the faucets when they arrived two days later is great.
Sure it'd be nice if they had them in stock all the time and had same day shipping, but it really does seem like they are a one or two man operation, and are probably running this as one of a handful of endeavors. They call out their lead times in advance after all.
Sure it'd be nice if they had them in stock all the time and had same day shipping, but it really does seem like they are a one or two man operation, and are probably running this as one of a handful of endeavors. They call out their lead times in advance after all.
OP
OP
Based on Vent-matic's reply that Intertap is infringing on their patent, I certainly won't even consider buying Intertap faucets. I suspected there was some reason for the low price: stolen design.
The low price is because the faucets are made in China, vs USA for the Vent-Matics.
But, yes, there are patent-covered design aspects that the Intertaps are clearly infringing.
So the ethics issue is definitely in play...
Cheers!
But, yes, there are patent-covered design aspects that the Intertaps are clearly infringing.
So the ethics issue is definitely in play...
Cheers!
I really liked the ideas Intertap was bringing to the table with the nitro spouts and planned bottle filler, etc.
It's a shame that they are doing it by knowingly infringing on the Ventmatic patent.
It's a shame that they are doing it by knowingly infringing on the Ventmatic patent.
Carlscan26
Well-Known Member
Just to play devils advocate...Vent-Matic saying it doesn't necessarily mean they're right. The lawyers will need to fight it out unfortunately. This may provide pause for some people to wait it out and see what happens or to give the benefit of the doubt or to just walk away entirely. Knowledge is a good thing but these issues are rarely ever black and white.
Unfortunately, it remains to be seen if any IP action can manifest on the Chinese.
If V-M can get an import injunction that'd likely be the most they could hope to accomplish...
Cheers!
If V-M can get an import injunction that'd likely be the most they could hope to accomplish...
Cheers!
JoshuaW
Well-Known Member
Vent-Matic saying that does not make it so. Someone can make improvements to the design and sell it as a new product. It happens all the time.
It's not really fair to blindly take the word of one company and accuse two other companies of dishonesty. William's has been good to me, and I will give them the benefit of the doubt.
You can rationalize your decision however you want.
Look at the patent document, look at the actuation of the two faucets, their overall designs, and it should be pretty clear. If after that, you still buy the counterfeit, I'm not sure what will change your mind.
Look at the patent document, look at the actuation of the two faucets, their overall designs, and it should be pretty clear. If after that, you still buy the counterfeit, I'm not sure what will change your mind.
Wait a minute, the designs are not exactly the same. The question is if the Intertap is different enough. Vent-Matic did not invent the forward sealing tap. I have an antique from the 50s that is forward sealing with a shuttle design just like Vent-Matic uses, but Vent-Matic made the design better.
Now, if it is close enough, should we all socially ban Chugger pumps? They are closer to the March pumps than Intertap is to Vent-Matic.
Actually, yes, if you can show that chugger infringes on March pump's intellectual property. I haven't looked for patents by March, but if you can find ones that Chugger is infringing upon, I definitely think that deserves its own separate discussion.
Here, we have pretty clear evidence (at least to me), and considering I received confirmation by the patent holder, and that the patent holder is pursuing action, that adds to the clarity.
For chugger, I haven't heard anything from March, but I think it would definitely be good to pursue that line of reasoning as well.
edit - I just did some quick patent searches, and it looks like chugger is in the clear. March mfg does have patents, but the most recent one that looked pertinent was issued in 1970, so it looks like chugger is ok.
Last edited:
In the March Pump answers questions Walter from March pump said that Chugger used to be a March vendor and then 100% copied the March design and had it made in China. The parts between the two are interchangeable.
I know that Vent-Matic claims that it is a violation of their patent. However that does not in itself make it so. My family was in the roller skate business and this happened all the time. Companies accused it other of patent infringement all the time and sent letters, but more often than not it did not go any farther than that because lawyers deemed it not an actual infringement.
By the way, I am very jealous of how many beers you have on tap, and how many you can have on tap!
I know that Vent-Matic claims that it is a violation of their patent. However that does not in itself make it so. My family was in the roller skate business and this happened all the time. Companies accused it other of patent infringement all the time and sent letters, but more often than not it did not go any farther than that because lawyers deemed it not an actual infringement.
By the way, I am very jealous of how many beers you have on tap, and how many you can have on tap!
Oh RIGHT, READ THE PATENT, MAKE A LEGAL INTERPRETATION...
Yea right. Gimme a f'ing break.
I just bought a hydrometer. It REALLY looks like a lot of other hydrometers. I have no guilt there.
