Interesting German Brewing PDF

[rabeb25]

If you use all 3 (45/45/10) and dosed it at .37g/gal you would end up with roughly 45ppm meta. If you dosed at .25g/gal you would be at 30ppm

 

[Magnus314]

Sounds great, thanks! I will be testing this soon as a 50/50 (got a swanky new 50" SS chiller cheap from Amazon for Christmas).

Anyone got a line on how to get my hands on some of the more advanced blends available to licensed brewers/ overseas?

I can get AA/SMB but everything else seems either very specific (what gallotannins?) or hard to find.

 

[day_trippr]

I gotta say, I found that pdf somewhat depressing.
I'm crazy OC about post-fermentation O2 exposure, now I find I'm barely solving half the issues

 

[stpug]

Let me make sure I have this straight. You're saying ff I used to target 50 mg/l SMB but I switch to a SMB/AA/BB blend, I should still target a total concentration of those three at 50 mg/l, which is about 0.19 g/gal?

I was going to just shoot for reducing my SMB down to around 35 mg/l until I read this. Plan is to use the 45/45/10 blend.

As I understand it, that would be correct. According to dosage instructions of the commercial 45/45/10 blend (SBT), it indicates a 0.19-0.38 g/gal dosage so obviously the 0.19 would be scraping the lowest level. I would assume if you have a tight system, 0.19 might be perfect. If you're not confident on tightness of your system then increasing the dosage might provide some insurance. The middle-ground might be a good starting point, and then you can see the results and adjust future batches.

I gotta say, I found that pdf somewhat depressing.
I'm crazy OC about post-fermentation O2 exposure, now I find I'm barely solving half the issues

100% agree. The PDF is a depressing read . Post-fermentation O2 exposure is largely negated by spunding with remaining extract; and, from what I read, to a slightly lesser degree by keg priming. Those are probably the easy solutions for that aspect.

 

[TexasWine]

If you use all 3 (45/45/10) and dosed it at .37g/gal you would end up with roughly 45ppm meta. If you dosed at .25g/gal you would be at 30ppm

Thanks for the clarification. I'll dose so that my SMB is around 30 ppm for ales (.25 g/gal) and 40 ppm for lagers (~.33 g/gal).

 

[Cavpilot2000]

I joined the lowO2 brewing forums and posted some questions today - looking forward to trying it out.

Is anybody using this method for German Pils? All I see are Helles, Kolsh, NEIPA, and even some brown ales, but nobody mentioning a Pils.

 

[rabeb25]

Literally all I brew is helles, pils and dunkel. I am the beerery over here. I will head over there.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Literally all I brew is helles, pils and dunkel. I am the beerery over here. I will head over there.

Cool, thanks. I have a bunch of questions in a post under "Generate Some Chatter".

 

[GRBC]

Reading about the use of SMB in the mash reminds me of the Heady Topper analysis that was done showing a metric ton of sulfate added. Have also read that Kimmich is highly focused on low DO in the packaged beer. Any chance sulfate would have a similar anti-ox effect as SMB in the mash?

 

[rabeb25]

Sulfate is what is made from oxidized sulfites. [emoji41]

 

[joshesmusica]

Reading about the use of SMB in the mash reminds me of the Heady Topper analysis that was done showing a metric ton of sulfate added. Have also read that Kimmich is highly focused on low DO in the packaged beer. Any chance sulfate would have a similar anti-ox effect as SMB in the mash?

It's fairly unlikely that they are using SMB to control oxygen ingress, but I suppose it's possible. If Heady Topper is like any other NEIPA, their chlorides are much higher than their sulfates, and the sulfate level is significantly lower than a typical west coast IPA. So, I'd be interested in knowing what a "metric ton of sulfate added" means exactly, since I highly doubt they're adding 1,000,000 grams of sulfate to each batch.

 

[rabeb25]

Well hot side I doubt it. I know some of them have state of the art German made braukon systems that are already inherently low oxygen brewhouses. Cold side though I would put money on them using a product like antitoxin sb, or antiox-c.

 

[GRBC]

It's fairly unlikely that they are using SMB to control oxygen ingress, but I suppose it's likely. If Heady Topper is like any other NEIPA, their chlorides are much higher than their sulfates, and the sulfate level is significantly lower than a typical west coast IPA. So, I'd be interested in knowing exactly what a "metric ton of sulfate added" means exactly, since I highly doubt they're adding 1,000,000 grams of sulfate to each batch.

OK, not a literal metric ton, but a full assload. Here's a link to the thread with the screen cap of their brew sheet. Way higher sulfate than chloride.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=477834

 

[Tiber_Brew]

It's fairly unlikely that they are using SMB to control oxygen ingress, but I suppose it's likely.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

I was wondering if I was the only one who noticed that line was double speak lol.

 

[joshesmusica]

Drinking while typing will get you every time... Meant to type possible. Fixed it now. Also fixed the other sentence that had a redundant exactly.

 

[thekraken]

...We recommend a 60 minute boil, with a total evaporation of 8 to 10%. This will
most likely look more like a simmer to you than a vigorous boil...

Is it more important to aim for a simmer or an 8 to 10% evaporation rate? It seems to me that the evaporation rate is just a side effect of the low intensity simmer.

 

[stpug]

Is it more important to aim for a simmer or an 8 to 10% evaporation rate? It seems to me that the evaporation rate is just a side effect of the simmer.

I believe it's the thermal stress on the wort that is key here so as not to "break down" the lipid and protein flocs the form during the hot break. At my level, keeping the vigor to a light simmer while partially covered seems to approach this goal the best, but I'm still floating around the 10% mark. I'm still learning myself so I may be off the mark a little bit too.

 

[Edelst0ff]

Be careful not to boil too low. That's not desirable either.

 

[Mer-man]

I BIAB, but incorporated a couple aspects I have learned in here on my last batch:
1. Pre-boiled my water, and mashed in very gently
2. Mash cap (no aroma noticeable during mash)
3. Hung the bag just above wort surface to drain - no squeezing on the premise that it pushes grain shmutz into the wort (got about 0.7L/Kg retention in the grain)
4. Boiled at about 8% evaporation - Hot break was the lightest in colour I have ever had, despite this grist being darker than I normally use.
5. Rapid chill and pitch onto active starter, then aerate.

So far, so good.

I apologize if I missed it, but does the effect of Antioxin SBT carry through post-boil? I have a well-pantina'd copper IC.

 

[mabrungard]

Be careful not to boil too low. That's not desirable either.

I'm wondering if this is true. With the empirical and analytical data pointing to the detriments of boiling too hard or intensely and that fact that there are some brewing systems that don't boil at all, I don't know. Reportedly, the Picobrew system only reaches to the 190F to 200F range and its the pump recirculation that provides the roiling.

I do know that the activation energy needed for hop acid isomerization is 185F. Therefore, it would seem that if you are getting any roiling from a typical boil, it may be enough.

I just finished up a Munich Dunkel that was boiled with the kettle lid almost entirely on. It required me to reduce my power setting from my typical 45%, down to 20%. I was still getting a light roiling action and my evaporative losses where down under 10%. Sipping on that beer now, I can attest that there is no DMS in it. So the nearly covered boil was OK with that respect and it was only a 60 min boil and there was a significant Pils malt percentage in the grist.

So, I'm seeing that I don't need to boil the heck out of my wort to produce good beer. I'm just wondering what the lower bound truly is.

 

[rabeb25]

I know you employed other methods of a low oxygen brewhouse as well... This (low boil) coupled with the other processes, what do you think of the beers?

 

[mabrungard]

what do you think of the beers?

I definitely need to account for that extra sulfate added by the SMB. This Dunkel is a little too dry in the finish. It also seems that my bittering level (21 IBU) is just a bit too high to allow the malt to come through well. I do like the flavor. The malt is clean. I used the Weyermann Chocolate Wheat and I'm liking the very light chocolate note, just a hint without roastiness.

This is the first day on carbonation after only a week of somewhat high temperature lagering. It's still too young to render a final verdict. My National palate is putting this beer in the low 30's today.

 

[rabeb25]

Oh, ok. So you are not spunding then? Good to hear on the other things.

 

[techbrau]

I'm wondering if this is true. With the empirical and analytical data pointing to the detriments of boiling too hard or intensely and that fact that there are some brewing systems that don't boil at all, I don't know. Reportedly, the Picobrew system only reaches to the 190F to 200F range and its the pump recirculation that provides the roiling.

I do know that the activation energy needed for hop acid isomerization is 185F. Therefore, it would seem that if you are getting any roiling from a typical boil, it may be enough.

I just finished up a Munich Dunkel that was boiled with the kettle lid almost entirely on. It required me to reduce my power setting from my typical 45%, down to 20%. I was still getting a light roiling action and my evaporative losses where down under 10%. Sipping on that beer now, I can attest that there is no DMS in it. So the nearly covered boil was OK with that respect and it was only a 60 min boil and there was a significant Pils malt percentage in the grist.

So, I'm seeing that I don't need to boil the heck out of my wort to produce good beer. I'm just wondering what the lower bound truly is.

The lower I take the boil, the more of the fresh malt flavor from the mash sticks around through the boil (and into the finished beer). I also boil with a lid mostly on and a very, very low flame and my evaporation is about 6%. I don't get any DMS.

You should try reducing your evaporation to 6-8%. 8% tastes noticeably better than 10%, and 6% tastes noticeably better than 8%, especially for light lagers.

 

[techbrau]

I definitely need to account for that extra sulfate added by the SMB. This Dunkel is a little too dry in the finish. It also seems that my bittering level (21 IBU) is just a bit too high to allow the malt to come through well. I do like the flavor. The malt is clean. I used the Weyermann Chocolate Wheat and I'm liking the very light chocolate note, just a hint without roastiness.

This is the first day on carbonation after only a week of somewhat high temperature lagering. It's still too young to render a final verdict. My National palate is putting this beer in the low 30's today.

LODO beer is going to be dryer in the finish than HIDO beer. That's why you need a small amount of caramel malt. 3-5% caramunich is about right for dunkel. For light lagers I like 2-4% caramel malt. Carahell is the standard but you'd be surprised at how nicely 2% caramunich works in a helles or pilsner.

Hopping needs to be done with a very, very light touch in these beers to let the malt through. There's a lot of wonderful, delicate, subtle malt flavor that is far too easily covered up by a few too many IBUs or a late hop addition that was just a little too large.

If you're starting with RO water, I would simply use 90 mg/l calcium chloride, and no gypsum. The SMB will provide enough sulfate.

 

[rabeb25]

The lower I take the boil, the more of the fresh malt flavor from the mash sticks around through the boil (and into the finished beer). I also boil with a lid mostly on and a very, very low flame and my evaporation is about 6%. I don't get any DMS.

You should try reducing your evaporation to 6-8%. 8% tastes noticeably better than 10%, and 6% tastes noticeably better than 8%, especially for light lagers.

I have been at 6% for quite some time, I really like what it brings to the table. Anything less than 60 min/6% for me and my system starts to produce DMS.

 

[wobdee]

https://youtu.be/YDBKUCkg8cM
Some interesting stuff on the boil from Charlie Bamforth

 

[enkamania]

In this interview, they talk about how Hill Farmstead taking steps to eliminate dissolved oxygen in all parts of the process

 

[joshesmusica]

In this interview, they talk about how Hill Farmstead taking steps to eliminate dissolved oxygen in all parts of the process

More of a mention than talking about it. I'd love to know more about what they're doing to eliminate it, though.