Interesting German Brewing PDF

[Yeastieboy]

About to begin lagering my first LoDo beer. It certainly turned out to be a quality wort. Although I can't necessarily attribute it to LoDo, as I have produced equally good wort without as much fuss. Still, looking forward to the final beer and will definitely try these tactics again.

 

[Bassman2003]

Hello,

I have been reading about LoDO brewing a bit and would like to implement some of the techniques. But I have a slight problem. I am currently redesigning my brewery to mimic this setup found on HobbyBrau - http://hobbybrauer.de/forum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=2465&view=unread#unread

This typical German homebrew setup involves moving the entire mash to a separate lauter tun. I have always heard that many German breweries mash a bit thinner to be able to move the mash around. This intrigues me and I would like to build a system like this. I plan on having the mash stirrer and induction heater for easy step mashing.

But, this kind of flies in the face of LoDO brewing doesn't it? If you are shooting the mash over to the lauter tun would this cancel out any gains with LoDO techniques?

I look forward to the input from the LoDO representatives as I am very close to start building! Thanks.

 

[Edelst0ff]

Pumping is from below. That reduces the o2 impact quite a bit according to the measurements taken by the group Narziss was heading.

To be clear. That Lodo stuff is not a new revolutionary method to brew. The writeup published was simply a trial and error summay of 6 people across the globe trying to absorb the findings Kunze and Narziss published in their works.

Narziss isn't published in English, Kunze however, is.

So grap a copy from the vlb and stop the poison please.

In the end it's up to you what you make and consume (we are still in a free society).

But please, don't discredit the enthusiasm and intentions of a group of people willing to share their experiences and interpretations.

If you want irrefutable proof that mash oxidation is a problem, then go and read the appropriate works.

Narziss is quite subtle. Kunze is very forthright about this matter. It is them who are undeniably credited with this work.

What the writeup did was to simply propose an elegant way of replicating this on small scale given the constraints.

Now, maybe the wording could have been better, maybe the delivery needs polish. All this would be constructive feedback.

So please, let's look at it from this perspective and forget the ego thing.

Well all be better going forwards.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

Solid advice. That's been my view on things for a bit now and my recommendation to others. Don't just take people's word for it, read the science yourself and form your own opinion. If your willing to spend the time digging through it and reading some in depth stuff the science is out there, much of it free online.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Just an update on my recent experiences.

I've implemented a good bit of the LODO methods and have used Brewtan-B for 3 batches. I've also used Cinnamon Verum in the mash. The difference in all of my previous batches and those 3 are night and day. You can search my post history and see how frustrated I became at one point. I've chased around every off-flavor imaginable and have been close several times to just giving up. As crazy as it sounds, I might have brewed 2 batches in 5 years that I was proud of. The rest ranged from dumpers (most) to just drinkable. I've now brewed 2 in a row that I can say "I brewed that." The other one was great before I dry hopped it. Something with the dry hops made it grassy after 1 day.

Looking back, oxidation had to be the cause. I use bottles of distilled water to brew. I often would open the bottle and splash the water into the kettle from 3 feet; I would dump all my malt into the water and stir vigorously; squeeze my grain bag from 3 feet; splash my copper chiller (I have SS now) up and down to aerate as I cooled; etc. Oxygen everywhere.

Some notes:

-The beer is more rounded and smooth. I don't know if its from the LODO/brewtan or the fact I am moving 30% or so of my 60 min hops to FWH which creates a smoother bitterness. It's almost as if some bitterness is missing. It's different, not bad, just different. The beer doesn't have the ending bite that some have. Not sure if that CO2 bite, or alcoholic bite, or something else....but damn its smooth.

-It seems that the beers don't clear as well. I have yet to try gelatin on a batch, which would require me to open the keg, but I am going to try that next. Not sure if this is something anyone else has experienced.

-The LODO steps I am missing are the underletting, spunding, and I also BIAB.

Am I making world class beers? No. Am I making good beer? Hell yes, finally. I feel like I am on the same page with everyone else now and can taste differences in beer that you are supposed to be tasting (i.e. differences in yeast, changes in water profiles, etc.) instead of just tasting **** beer.

So a huge thank you to the LODO guys. I imagine as I try to implement the other steps it'll get even better.

I had to make a spreadsheet to keep up with all of the additions I do.

 

[Jwin]

No salt/mineral additions?

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

No salt/mineral additions?

Yes, but the additions above are the constants. The salts/minerals change batch to batch and style to style. Now I do a printout of my Brewers Friend Recipe Builder that has all my notes and minerals.

Here is my original spreadsheet (1 tab of about 15) I made to document EVERYTHING in order to find out what was causing my problems. I was taking pH readings every 15 minutes in the mash and boil. Frustrating and time consuming to say the least.

 

[beersk]

Just an update on my recent experiences.



So a huge thank you to the LODO guys. I imagine as I try to implement the other steps it'll get even better.

Sounds like you're taking baby steps just as I am and it's great you're also seeing results. I'm mostly full low O2, but missing some small things that I'm not sure make a difference or not like trub separation, etc. My mash cap is tin foil, which I'm sure isn't perfect, but it's better than nothing. I get it pretty closed down, which I think is good enough. I'm still a firm believer that any and all attempts to rid O2 from the system helps, at least on some level. Sure, you might not get Ayinger or Weihenstephaner, but you're going to have a better malt character.

 

[storunner13]

An update on some of my LoDO beers for an Oktoberfest party this weekend (better late than never).

Festbier--I don't remember pcts...Pima, Vima, Carafoam, Carared. This one ended up a very nice dark gold, to light orange. Malt flavor is OK, but bitterness is a little too high. Good, but not as great as I hoped.

Schwartzbier--Pima and Carafoam with 2oz Caraaroma, 2oz Carafa II, and 4oz Caramunich III. With 4fl oz of Sinamar. This one has a huge malt flavor, but it is way over the top for Scwartzbier. It's more of a dunkel with a little roast. I think WLP802 also really emphasizes malt over bitterness, especially when compared to WLP860, and ever WLP838. I would probably remove the cararoma and reduce the caramunich to small amounts. Maybe bump up the carafa by a little to boost the roast a hair. I also get a slight smokiness in the finish. It's not terrible, but it's not ideal for this beer. Could this be from the 4 fl. oz. of Sinamar? I've never used it before.

Dunkel--I followed Bryan's recipe. WLP860. This is probably the best beer I have ever brewed. The malt flavor just leaps onto your palate. Pretzel and grapenuts and honey. It's really incredible, and will probably be what I drink the most of this weekend.

Pilsner--this one was dumped. When I racked to spunden (in a new-to-me used keg) I found that the keg had a hole in it--in the BOTTOM. As it carbed up beer flowed into the rubber foot. Luckily it did not spill everywhere, but I was not going to be drinking rubber beer.

Hermann Hefeweizen--this was non SMB LoDO. I followed the Hermann Hefeweizen schedule. This was disappointing. The malt flavor is good (big wheat flavor), but the yeast flavor and mouthfeel are lacking. It's quite surprising since I've always gotten big mouthfeel with the 62C 72C rest schedule. The Isoamyl Acetate flavor seems a little more complex than years past, but it is still lower, and citrus esters are lower than years past. 60F fermentation temp, ramp to 68F and after 3 days, spunden for last bit (did not fully carbonate naturally).

 

[TexasWine]

Thank you @storunner13 for the reminder. Quick update on the Marzen I made at the end of May, which was my first low DO beer. I know, long time coming.

For a while after brewing this beer I wasn't convinced at first that this low DO thing was all it was cracked up to be. It took a long time for it to come around. Lots of cloudy, smelly pints for a very long time. Finally, it cleared and Wham-O, I suddenly had a really tasty beer.

But here's the thing. I wasn't 100% sure I was tasting that fresh malty goodness that others have described. I thought I was, but I didn't have a comparison because I had never made this beer before so didn't know what to expect. Well, I bottled some of it to enter into a few competitions and to share. Sure enough, within a few weeks of bottling, the character of the beer completely changed. It lost that malty goodness I was originally tasting. Now I know what it tastes like and what to look for. I can definitely taste a big difference in my Altbier. Very happy about that.

Now the trick is to preserve that flavor in the bottle! My plan is to put a a little sugar in the bottles just before filling so that the yeast hopefully do some scavenging.

 

[Magnus314]

Where do you buy Brewtan B? I'd like to try some.

And i'll have to look up Cinnamon Verum.

 

[enkamania]

Where do you buy Brewtan B? I'd like to try some.

And i'll have to look up Cinnamon Verum.

I got mine from Australia http://www.ibrew.com.au/products/brewtan-b

 

[Bilsch]

Interesting experiment with brewtan b.

http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=531

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

I was just reading that last night. It's pretty interesting that whenever they test a LODO mash vs something else you can always tell the difference based on appearance alone. I guess that's not a surprise since staling reactions darken the beer but it's cool the difference is that distinguishable to the eye.

 

[Magnus314]

My LoDO beers are basically see through they're so light and clear.

It's one of the main reasons I decided to work through all the changes in my system - I could SEE that something was significantly different even before the beer was done.

 

[popquizkid]

So did my first LODO ish brew.

Made an altbier and did no sparge. This is what I did:

1. Added yeast / dextrose to water 2 hours before brew
2. Heated water and added SMB (50g / l) added 5.5 g CaCL
2. Conditioned malt and milled into mash cooler
3. Underlet water into cooler and lightly stirred
4. Mashed 70 minutes
5. Drained to kettle
6. Very gentle 90 minute boil (whirfloc added in last 10)

There was a large amount "stuff" floating in the in the wort. Want to say it was sort of flaky, but not sure how to describe it (should have taken a pitcure). Interesting enough it did not all settle to bottom after chilling - wort still had lots of stuff floating in it when I took my gravity reading before transfer to the fermenter.

Never seen this in a brew before. Any ideas?

 

[storunner13]

Hopefully you only added 50 milligrams per liter instead of 50 grams.

Your experience with the hot break in the boil is similar to what I and others have experienced.

 

[TheHairyHop]

http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2016/10/low-dissolved-oxygen-do-brewing-lager.html

 

[popquizkid]

Hopefully you only added 50 milligrams per liter instead of 50 grams.

Your experience with the hot break in the boil is similar to what I and others have experienced.

haha yeah - it was 50 mg / l.

Interesting on the hot break - I wonder what it is and why this occurs with LODO? It looks like coagulated proteins or something like that. There is still some floating in the fermenter (since it floats I could not leave it behind).

 

[storunner13]

http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2016/10/low-dissolved-oxygen-do-brewing-lager.html

I see Bryan has weighed in. The gloves are already off.

 

[TheHairyHop]

I see Bryan has weighed in. The gloves are already off.

correct me if I'm wrong, but the only topic that brings remotely the same amount of passion to the table is the NEIPA. man, those threads turn into cluster reeaalll quick

 

[Kit_B]

I see Bryan has weighed in. The gloves are already off.

I don't know why, but I am always shocked that folks want to blog about their inability to follow instructions, only to conclude that our method is too complicated or that it doesn't work.

There is nothing complex, in our method...Honestly.
In fact...I don't use a mash cap.
My $250 DO meter rarely gets used, anymore.
By preboiling, using an oxygen scavenger, underletting with a pump, forced co2 transfers to vessels purged of o2 & spunding, you'll likely get the vast majority of what you're after.
It's a lot easier than you think & the results are SO worth the small amount of effort.

Also...
In Mike's replies to Bryan, he touches on one item that we should all keep in mind:
If treated nicely, the second generation of yeast is better than the first.

 

[storunner13]

It frustrates me that new attempts are often compared directly to the recipe outlined in the treatise. While each step is based on sound brewing science, not all are essential to retaining the malt flavor in the final beer.

Mediocre (or worse) results using Low DO processes does not indicate that the brewer used incorrect processes resulting in dissolved oxygen, or that the poor results were due to the Low DO method itself. Lacking malt depth, or bitterness issues could be due to the recipe. In Mike's instance, the mediocre results are likely the high SMB dosage and poor yeast health.

Low DO brewing can be used to both recreate perfect Bavarian lagers, and bring more malt flavor to your beers. While the initial goal was to attain the former, others are targeting the latter using the same methods, possibly without a classically Bavarian recipe or fermentation schedule.

 

[Kit_B]

It frustrates me that new attempts are often compared directly to the recipe outlined in the treatise. While each step is based on sound brewing science, not all are essential to retaining the malt flavor in the final beer.

That's a fair statement.

Mediocre (or worse) results using Low DO processes does not indicate that the brewer used incorrect processes resulting in dissolved oxygen, or that the poor results were due to the Low DO method itself. Lacking malt depth, or bitterness issues could be due to the recipe. In Mike's instance, the mediocre results are likely the high SMB dosage and poor yeast health.

Indeed.
With the experience some of us have in lodo brewing, we just see the problematic items as glaring beacons & want to shout "No...No...Please, don't do it this way", because we understand that the brewer will be incredibly unhappy with the outcome.
In this instance, the use of only a Barke Pilsner base malt mashed at 152*F, added with the use of saphir at only FWH & a first generation of 34/70 yeast is going to give results that lack depth & create a beer that I would personally dump.

 

[schematix]

About a week ago i put my 3rd LoDO helles keg on tap. The end of the 2nd keg lost the sweet grain flavor and had taken on the same white wine flavor that the 1st keg did. The first several days of pulling glasses off the 3rd keg was quite nice. The sweet grain flavor was intense and delicious... but a week later hooked to my co2 and that flavor is gone already.

The guy at the LHBS says his gas is food grade and comes from the same place everyone else gets their CO2 (which doesn't say much about oxygen content, just that its free of things like hydrocarbons).

I'm scared to let my LoDO IPA anywhere near this CO2 cylinder but i'm not sure what my other options are at this point.

 

[Edelst0ff]

Not a lot to go on with... Can you provide a bit more info? Ferment temps, temperature deltas over time, age?

 

[Bilsch]

The guy at the LHBS says his gas is food grade and comes from the same place everyone else gets their CO2

Sorry to hear about your helles. No other commercial gas suppliers in town? Maybe your guy is selling paintball trash gas grade.
Buying a larger bottle usually gives you an in at the bulk suppliers. The minimum size here for that is 20lb bottle that cost ~$120 and fills are $22. You could always pony up and buy instrument or reagent grade.

 

[TheHairyHop]

A good test would be to keg the beer without the serving CO2, wait for the duration that it would normally stale at and see if it undergoes that same changes. Of course, it's not a full simulation with increasing headspace, but you could make that happen.

 

[schematix]

I made the Helles in early July (about 3.5 months ago). I made about 13.5G split across 3 kegs.

I fermented in 3 corny kegs - each keg had about 4.5G. There were another 3 "serving" kegs. The gas port of the fermenting keg was connected to the liquid port of the serving keg. A spund valve was connected to the gas port of the serving keg. The beer was fermented under about 3psi of pressure. The serving kegs all have shortened "flush" gas dip tubes and were water purged using my regular CO2 was used to push the gas out.

It was fermented at 50F, with temps slowly decreasing down to 46F. It was racked with ~5 SG points remaining. All transfer lines were purged with the serving tank gas prior to transfer. Transfer was done closed loop by placing fermentation kegs above serving kegs, connecting the liquid ports, then burping the serving keg to initiate a siphon. Gas lines were then connected. The beer was then held another week at 46F until SG was reached, at which point i started to drop 2F per day until reaching 37F. It has been stored continuously at 37F since then.

All 3 kegs have had the bright sweet grain flavor in the first few glasses. At about the week mark is when it starts to degrade.

I had a discussion with the LHBS owner about his CO2 supply. He gets it from Airgas in 75lb siphon tanks. The tanks had a sticker on them that said food grade (I watched him fill my last 2 cylinders recently). He seemed to be very familiar with the CO2 supply chain in the area since he is a chemical engineer in the ethanol industry (LHBS is a side gig).

My hunch is that the CO2 isn't that pure with respect to oxygen because the 3rd keg even at 3 months still tasted perfectly fresh when first tapped. I hit it hard for several days before i started to notice the flavor fading. I'm not sure how i could quantitatively test the oxygen content of the CO2 though.

 

[rabeb25]

If you had a DO meter you could test your beer in the keg, if it is fading in a few days you are probably at or above .1. I would put money it being your co2.