Interesting German Brewing PDF

[KeyWestBrewing]

You can always try a big ice bath. I pump my pool water through my IC which only gets me to about 90f. But that's when I'll rack to fermenter and keep the fermenter in a kettle full of ice water. You can get the temps crashed pretty low and quick this way. Then when I'm done chilling I use the ice bath as cleaning water. I can go from boiling temps to pitching in the low 60s in a couple hours.

 

[TexasWine]

After having troubles sufficiently chilling 9 gallons of wort this weekend I started to reminisce about my no-chill days and how quick a brew day was back then (~3 hours), which of course turned into trying to figure out how to do a no-chill low DO brew day. So with that, I’m gonna throw out some thoughts for no-chill low DO brewing for you all to poke holes in.

At flame out, transfer the wort to an empty keg that has been filled with sanitizer and purged with CO2. Transfer from the kettle to the keg via the liquid post and as gently as possible. Vent the keg through the relief valve or through a gas QD and a hose submerged in liquid for an air lock. Put the keg in the fermentation chamber and connect it to CO2 set at a low pressure so that as it chills a positive pressure is maintained on the keg. Pitch yeast when the wort is at the temperature you’re shooting for. Because there is no boil kettle settling period for break material, as an alternative you could rack from the “chilling keg” to the fermentation vessel of your choice, leaving behind any material from the boil.

What say ye? Could it work?

One benefit I could see of this method is that the wort is quickly transferred to a reduced oxygen environment for chilling. The normal chilling method leaves the wort exposed to oxygen the entire duration of the chilling process, which can take quite a while to get to ~50°F.

 

[scone]

After having troubles sufficiently chilling 9 gallons of wort this weekend I started to reminisce about my no-chill days and how quick a brew day was back then (~3 hours), which of course turned into trying to figure out how to do a no-chill low DO brew day. So with that, I’m gonna throw out some thoughts for no-chill low DO brewing for you all to poke holes in.

At flame out, transfer the wort to an empty keg that has been filled with sanitizer and purged with CO2. Transfer from the kettle to the keg via the liquid post and as gently as possible. Vent the keg through the relief valve or through a gas QD and a hose submerged in liquid for an air lock. Put the keg in the fermentation chamber and connect it to CO2 set at a low pressure so that as it chills a positive pressure is maintained on the keg. Pitch yeast when the wort is at the temperature you’re shooting for. Because there is no boil kettle settling period for break material, as an alternative you could rack from the “chilling keg” to the fermentation vessel of your choice, leaving behind any material from the boil.

What say ye? Could it work?

One benefit I could see of this method is that the wort is quickly transferred to a reduced oxygen environment for chilling. The normal chilling method leaves the wort exposed to oxygen the entire duration of the chilling process, which can take quite a while to get to ~50°F.

I was ruminating about the same thing. I also no-chill and do not really relish adding the chilling process back into my workflow. A sanke keg is a great no-chill vessel option (if you can purge the headspace with Co2 using a coupler and sanke adapter). I use sanke's (sixtel exclusive for my no-chill brewing and i love it. Brewer’s hardware sells a tri-clover end cap that I clamp on after I rack the hot wort and it seals it very well. I always get an intense suction after the wort cools down to the point where it’s difficult to pry the end cap back off without a screwdriver to vent the pressure.

Now I don’t do LODO brewing but I have been thinking about ways to incorporate some of the techniques. I kind of wonder how important purging the keg really is. With 6 g. in a 7.5 g. sanke, that leaves 1.5 gallons of headspace at ~190F at racking time. At ~60F that will create a -11.75psi pressure in the keg (sanke can handle it fine) or the equivalent of 0.5 g of air’s worth of oxygen (Charles’ Law). Under such conditions, I wonder how important it is to vent the keg with Co2. I’m sure it can’t hurt, but I wonder what the 02 diffusion rate would be over given the negative pressure. I honestly have no idea. In any case, the negative pressure probably helps if you can rack into a sixtel.

 

[Bilsch]

I kind of wonder how important purging the keg really is.

Sounds like an elegant solution to protecting the wort while cooling.

If you can maintain a decent vacuum in your keg then the low partial pressure over the liquid will allow only a small amount of any oxygen, that may be in the head space, to dissolve in the liquid. If the vacuum was low enough then it would also cause much of any O2 that had previously dissolved in, to come out of solution.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

I thought about doing this on my last Berliner since Ive been souring in a corny. Since your racking in near boiling would that steam purge the keg if you left the PRV cracked? Im trying to find more info on steam purging but not having good luck.

 

[Edelst0ff]

Everybody needs to find "the lid that fits their pot"

In the end what matters is how happy one is with the result.

My (current) interpretation is that the first phase is quite crucial during fermentation.

I am no yeast expert by all means, but I'd empirically favour pitching low and keeping it cold during the log phase. What happens thereafter depends on preference and, above all, results one is happy with.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

I think people are just kicking around ideas. Some methods work better than others in different circumstances so its nice having a few tools in the bag.

 

[schematix]

I'm thinking a that a glycol jacketed conical fermenter would be a pretty effective tool for rapid cooling.

 

[TexasWine]

After having troubles sufficiently chilling 9 gallons of wort this weekend I started to reminisce about my no-chill days and how quick a brew day was back then (~3 hours), which of course turned into trying to figure out how to do a no-chill low DO brew day. So with that, I’m gonna throw out some thoughts for no-chill low DO brewing for you all to poke holes in.

At flame out, transfer the wort to an empty keg that has been filled with sanitizer and purged with CO2. Transfer from the kettle to the keg via the liquid post and as gently as possible. Vent the keg through the relief valve or through a gas QD and a hose submerged in liquid for an air lock. Put the keg in the fermentation chamber and connect it to CO2 set at a low pressure so that as it chills a positive pressure is maintained on the keg. Pitch yeast when the wort is at the temperature you’re shooting for. Because there is no boil kettle settling period for break material, as an alternative you could rack from the “chilling keg” to the fermentation vessel of your choice, leaving behind any material from the boil.

What say ye? Could it work?

One benefit I could see of this method is that the wort is quickly transferred to a reduced oxygen environment for chilling. The normal chilling method leaves the wort exposed to oxygen the entire duration of the chilling process, which can take quite a while to get to ~50°F.

I think I'm going to give this no-chill in the keg thing a go this weekend, with a Dunkel. Still don't have a DO meter, so I won't know if there is any impact on that front.

Can anyone think of any other reasons to NOT do a no-chill in the manner described above?

 

[storunner13]

There might be a concern for DMS if you're doing a 60' low intensity boil, but I wouldn't worry about it too much.

 

[TheHairyHop]

I think I'm going to give this no-chill in the keg thing a go this weekend, with a Dunkel. Still don't have a DO meter, so I won't know if there is any impact on that front.

Can anyone think of any other reasons to NOT do a no-chill in the manner described above?

the remaining O2 in the keg will be hitting the wort hot, therefore making oxidation reactions happen quickly. You could maybe add some SMB at the end of the boil to prevent this, I'm sure some back of the envelope calculations would be justified.

 

[techbrau]

Not to mention heat stress on the wort. The wort shouldn't be kept hot any longer than is absolutely necessary. Kunze mentions that even whirlpool times in a commercial brewery need to be kept as short as possible, because heat stress is a cumulative effect on the wort that happens even at sub-boiling temperatures.

For some visual examples of heat stress, look here:

http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?t=440

I won't tell anybody not to try no-chill with LODO, as I think there's nothing wrong with testing it and it will be informative either way. But my prediction is that the wort darkens and the flavor degrades.

 

[Yeastieboy]

I'm thinking a that a glycol jacketed conical fermenter would be a pretty effective tool for rapid cooling.

I'm thinking I cant afford a glycol jacketed conical fermenter! [emoji6]

 

[Bilsch]

the remaining O2 in the keg will be hitting the wort hot, therefore making oxidation reactions happen quickly.

I think it would be little worry as the solubility of oxygen in boiling water is essentially zero. If you maintained a vacuum of say a moderate 12inHg, then the solubility is still zero until the temperature falls below about 186°f

 

[TexasWine]

Not to mention heat stress on the wort. The wort shouldn't be kept hot any longer than is absolutely necessary.

Now this is something I hadn't considered. Thanks for the insight.

So with this line of thinking, it seems that a 30 minute boil would have an advantage over a standard 60 minute.

 

[techbrau]

That depends. You still need to boil enough in order to get a good protein break and get rid of undesirable volatiles like SMS/DMS. Failing to precipitate out protein/tannin complexes (break material) is also going to make the beer to stale faster down the road. Trying to achieve 8-10% evaporation in 30 minutes means applying high heat to the wort. Without good convection, you'll end up scorching the wort and likely impart just as much if not more heat stress damage as a gentle 60 minute boil. But maybe targeting 6-8% boiloff in 30 minutes would work...

I'm not saying it can't be done. But the boil is a far more finicky thing than most people think, and it's going to be highly system dependent. It depends on your batch size, kettle size and shape, heating element, how well insulated your kettle is, and even the temperature of the environment you're brewing in (for example, brewing outside in the middle of winter means lots of ambient heat loss, therefore more heat required from the element to maintain the boil, less even heating and more heat stress damage to the wort). You need to make sure not to boil too little, nor too much - it's got to be just right.

Try a 30 minute boil on your system - if you notice DMS, shorter shelf stability, increased color pickup accompanied by loss of the fresh malt flavor, etc. then you'll know you need to change it up. If you don't have any of those problems, then you're likely ok.

 

[Magnus314]

What about no chilling using an inset mash cap that fits your kettle? pressed down to the liquid level it seems like there wouldn't be any oxygen for it to react with.

DMS problems aside, of course.

 

[55x11]

It doesn't matter if oxygen is pushed into the keg as CO2 production begins. There is so much CO2 produced that essentially all oxygen will be removed from the receiving keg.

Not really *All* oxygen. Some oxygen will still be there. How much?

How much CO2 is produced? Lets say you hook up exhaust from beginning of fermentation.

For 5Gallons of 6% ABV beer, about 130 Gallons of CO2 gas. That's about 4% air still there if mixed evenly, or 2% if you take into account linear increase of CO2 over time.

For 2% of air still left in the keg - that's 0.4% air, or 120g of oxygen, or about 6,000 ppm of oxygen.

 

[jddevinn]

I'm thinking a that a glycol jacketed conical fermenter would be a pretty effective tool for rapid cooling.

FYI, cooling 12 gallons of wort every 10°F of sensible heat is going to require about 1,000 BTU.

Using a 10 gallon fermenter, 12 gallons of wort, about 10 gallons of glycerol solution starting at 32°F (chiller had been off for a while due to people in the brewery, normally set at 20°F), a 5,000 BTU/min A/C glycerol chiller and a SSbrew tech cooling coil it took ~40 minutes to drop by 10°F. (the last 10°F I couldn't get with my water)

I wouldn't look to conical for fast cooling. As you can see the glycol was chilling faster than it could transfer heat from the beer in the conical!!!! Using the glycerol reserve in a heat exchange would be much faster! ("other fermenter" process was paused while cooling the wort)

 

[Jwin]

FYI, cooling 12 gallons of wort every 10°F of sensible heat is going to require about 1,000 BTU.

Using a 10 gallon fermenter, 12 gallons of wort, about 10 gallons of glycerol solution starting at 32°F (chiller had been off for a while due to people in the brewery, normally set at 20°F), a 5,000 BTU/min A/C glycerol chiller and a SSbrew tech cooling coil it took ~40 minutes to drop by 10°F. (the last 10°F I couldn't get with my water)

I wouldn't look to conical for fast cooling. As you can see the glycol was chilling faster than it could transfer heat from the beer in the conical!!!! Using the glycerol reserve in a heat exchange would be much faster! ("other fermenter" process was paused while cooling the wort)

Beer, ooo!
Beer Science!
Plastic tubes and pots and pans
Bits and pieces and
Magic from the hand
We're makin...

 

[storunner13]

Another sticking point is removing the break from the fermentor for no-chill. Would we consider transferring to another keg after the break settles and the wort cools? I also might be naive to the no-chill methods to remove the break.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

I think it depends on the temp your holding the fermentor at. The colder the faster. Sometimes I'm not able to give the fermenter an ice bath so I let it chill overnight to settle the break out then rack off into another fermenter before pitching. Come morning it's settled pretty well but this is what it looks like after a few hours....

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1475073801.172732.jpg

This is one of my favorite brewing pics. It's like a beer lava lamp.

 

[TexasWine]

That depends. You still need to boil enough in order to get a good protein break and get rid of undesirable volatiles like SMS/DMS. Failing to precipitate out protein/tannin complexes (break material) is also going to make the beer to stale faster down the road. Trying to achieve 8-10% evaporation in 30 minutes means applying high heat to the wort. Without good convection, you'll end up scorching the wort and likely impart just as much if not more heat stress damage as a gentle 60 minute boil. But maybe targeting 6-8% boiloff in 30 minutes would work...

Try a 30 minute boil on your system - if you notice DMS, shorter shelf stability, increased color pickup accompanied by loss of the fresh malt flavor, etc. then you'll know you need to change it up. If you don't have any of those problems, then you're likely ok.

I've done plenty of 30 minutes boils pre-low DO days with nary a hint of DMS. And 6-8% should be doable on my system without stressing the wort too much. I have 2x1500 watt ULWD elements. One runs at full blast, the other on the controller at 30-70%, depending on batch size. Ideally they'd both be connected to a controller at partial power, but unfortunately that's not how I'm set up.

The one thing that I'm really unsure about is the impact the break material could have on the long term stability (and please don't respond to this comment with a link to the Trubby vs Non Trubby exBeeriment). I could always rack to another vessel after the cooling period, but at that point no-chill looses it's advantage by reintroducing more work into the equation.

 

[techbrau]

It's not about getting break material into the fermenter. The act of boiling itself causes undesirable compounds to precipitate out of solution as break material. If you don't boil enough, those compounds are basically still dissolved in the wort and will cause it to stale quickly. 30 minutes should be enough time to do this sufficiently - give it a try on your system and see if you notice any problems.

LODO wort seems to obey a completely different set of rules than HIDO wort. I never noticed much difference boiling HIDO wort 60 minutes vs 2 hours. But the difference with LODO wort is insanely huge as you can see from the pics I linked to.

 

[TexasWine]

It's not about getting break material into the fermenter. The act of boiling itself causes undesirable compounds to precipitate out of solution as break material. If you don't boil enough, those compounds are basically still dissolved in the wort and will cause it to stale quickly. 30 minutes should be enough time to do this sufficiently - give it a try on your system and see if you notice any problems.

LODO wort seems to obey a completely different set of rules than HIDO wort. I never noticed much difference boiling HIDO wort 60 minutes vs 2 hours. But the difference with LODO wort is insanely huge as you can see from the pics I linked to.

Ah OK. Following you now. Those pictures are incredible.

BTW, the trubby vs non-trubby comment wasn't directed at you. It was, however, directed at anyone else who might be inclined to say, "But wait! I read something about that!"

 

[techbrau]

No worries, I know what you meant - just wanted to clarify that I was talking about the precipitation of break out of solution, not the break ending up in the fermenter.

 

[TexasWine]

Not really *All* oxygen. Some oxygen will still be there. How much?

How much CO2 is produced? Lets say you hook up exhaust from beginning of fermentation.

For 5Gallons of 6% ABV beer, about 130 Gallons of CO2 gas. That's about 4% air still there if mixed evenly, or 2% if you take into account linear increase of CO2 over time.

For 2% of air still left in the keg - that's 0.4% air, or 120g of oxygen, or about 6,000 ppm of oxygen.

Not doubting your maths there, but was wondering if you could share more details. Are you saying that 5 gallons air / 135 gallons total gas = ~4% by volume if it's all bottled up and allowed to pressure up the receiving keg?

I ran some numbers myself. If they’re right, it looks like if one were capable of bottling up all the CO2 produced during the fermentation of a 1.060 gravity beer and achieve 75% apparent attenuation, then put all that into a keg at 65°F and vent it back out, there would still be theoretically 4% air by volume, which matches your number.

But to me the math doesn't look that straight forward. The fermenting keg discharges to the serving keg and the serving keg is allowed to vent at some low pressure, effectively sweeping the serving keg as opposed to pressuring it up and venting it. The rate of removal with the sweep would be an exponential decay, dropping off quickly as the concentration of air is reduced.

I know there is at least one fellow that I’ve seen that uses this sweeping method. Can’t remember who exactly it is, but I’d be interested to hear their experience with it.

 

[TheHairyHop]

fwiw, I found the spunding and carbonation section of the PDF to be the most lacking in detail and logic. if you are naturally carbonating in a keg, there does not seem to be much point in being OCD about the oxygen content of that keg. I will not pretend to have done measurements, nor am I LODO obsessed ( I just want really hoppy ales ), but if you don't care about CSA when oxygenating the fresh wort, I don't see why a few PPM of 02 while there is still active fermentation should matter. If some more knowledgeable LODO could set me straight on this, that'd be awesome

 

[beersk]

I want to do a LoDO IPA as my next brew. I've seen some chatter on here about ale yeasts not tolerating the sulfites as well as the lager yeasts so I was considering my options. I've made an IPA with a lager yeast before, at lager temps, and while it was good, it wasn't what i was looking for because it was too clean.

So i'm looking to attempt this again, but was thinking my options could be:
1. Pitch ale yeast (Wy1450), but maybe dial back the sulfites (probably 50%)
2. Pitch a lager yeast (i've got 2035 american lager and 2633 octoberfest blend on hand) and ferment on the warm side. I'd probably do the 2035 at 58F.

I would likely be dry hopping in the keg with a few gravity points to go, then adding priming sugar to the serving keg to keep it LoDO.

Thoughts?

I honestly don't think you'll notice much of a difference in malt flavor. I had a couple German brewed hoppy beers on tap over the weekend that were quite disappointing: Kostritzer pale ale and Weihenstephaner Uferlos pale ale. I expected the beers to be out-of-this-world, but nope. So...I don't know what to think about that.

Anyway, on that note, if you follow your typical procedure but spund the beer, then you'll get a really nice fresh tasting beer, the hops will pop. I'm not sure the malt character will matter anyway in an IPA. That's all about the freshest, best hop flavor and aroma you can achieve.

 

[schematix]

I honestly don't think you'll notice much of a difference in malt flavor. I had a couple German brewed hoppy beers on tap over the weekend that were quite disappointing: Kostritzer pale ale and Weihenstephaner Uferlos pale ale. I expected the beers to be out-of-this-world, but nope. So...I don't know what to think about that.

Anyway, on that note, if you follow your typical procedure but spund the beer, then you'll get a really nice fresh tasting beer, the hops will pop. I'm not sure the malt character will matter anyway in an IPA. That's all about the freshest, best hop flavor and aroma you can achieve.

I haven't decided on the hot side yet if i'm going to do the LoDO or standard HiDO, but i'm leaning HiDO since i'll be doing an hour hop stand anyways.

What I have decided:
-Using 1450 ale yeast. Ferment 65-67F.
-Ferment under 2-3 psi of pressure in primary
-Start dry hop in primary when i reach a gravity of about 1.020-1.025 (depending when i catch it). 6 oz pellet hops per keg in a nylon bag, tied with floss to handle, suspended approx in center of keg. Dry hop 3-5 days in upper 60s.
-Transfer beer under closed loop to serving keg at FG.
-Add about 125g priming sugar and conditioned at room temp for 2 weeks (currently 73 in basement where this will be). Spunding valve will not be attached since no matter what i've done it has a slow bleed. Will check pressure every few days though to ensure its not too high (30 psi will be required at this temp to carbonate sufficiently).
-Receiving keg will NOT be water purged. Since i have to open the lid to add the priming sugar all this work would just be wasted.

I'm really looking forward to seeing what 16oz of Citra and 16oz of Simcoe can do to 10 gallons of beer.