Interesting German Brewing PDF

[aprichman]

You really need to do some proper sensory difference testing before you claim that any of these techniques (or reduction of oxygen on the hotside) makes a significant difference in the finished beer.

 

[TexasWine]

Yet another question to pile on the rest. Is anyone else concerned with using NaMeta in their brewing liquor and then pitching yeast the same day? Definitely not a microbiologist or even a scientist, but doesn't NaMeta inhibit yeast growth and even cause cell death?

Nope. Yeasts appear to be happy as clams, fermenting away at 50F. No lag in getting started either.

It's also used in the crush during wine making to inhibit indigenous yeasts, mold, bacteria. Wine makers don't have a problem using it pre fermentation either.

 

[orangehero]

What American beers have IT? Does Budweiser or any other products made on an InBev owned ****************? Surely they use the most sophisticated low oxygen techniques?

Interesting point about the accuracy and precision of the Extech DO meter. If that's what all of these guys are using, then although the meter will show some value to the hundredth decimal place, the most they can truthfully say is that their wort/beer is probably less than 1 ppm.

 

[wobdee]

Too much rice in Bud but if you can find Michelob Original give it a try.

 

[mabrungard]

but doesn't NaMeta inhibit yeast growth and even cause cell death?

An important factor is that these metabisulfite salts are broken down by heat during the boil and that don't typically survive into the fermentation chamber.

 

[dstar26t]

3) The oxidation reactions that happen in the mash begin instantly, and reach peak activity within 30 seconds to 2 minutes, and the bulk of the oxidation has already happened after 4 or 5 minutes. You can see plots illustrating this in Kunze's book on page 234, where he has a graph showing oxidation reaction rates with respect to time (measured using chemiluminescence detection) under normal and low oxygen brewing conditions. The low oxygen mash has orders of magnitude less going on in the way of oxidation reactions! Some people have talked about throwing a couple campden tablets into the mash, but that's far too little far too late. The damage has already been done at dough-in!

I also want to mention that the pdf emphasizes that cold side oxygen control is just as important. You really want to keep the dissolved oxygen level in the final package under 0.1 ppm (this is the target that John Kimmich from The Alchemist discusses as well). But did you know that the amount of air it would take to fill a single shot glass, if trapped inside the keg, will raise the dissolved oxygen content of a 5 gallon batch of beer by more than 0.2 ppm? It's really hard to get ALL of the air out of a keg, and we measured that our own racking procedures going from primary into a purged keg picked up between 0.4 and 0.8 ppm! The only method we can currently recommend in good faith is spunding in the keg with active yeast, because the yeast will consume any oxygen picked up and keep the DO level of the beer close to zero.

Thank you for your work on this method. I don't have Kunze's book so I appreciate you sharing the oxidation reaction rate at mashing temp. Did he publish a rate at cellar temps? Can I oxygenate after pitching yeast as normal (3 Lpm pure O2 for a 12 gallon batch) without risking losing "fresh malt flavors"? You published that yeast take-up oxygen at 2-3 ppm/hr which would be an insanely slow flow rate for 12 gallons, even for air, like 6 mLpm assuming 100% efficiency. Have you done any sensory analysis on blasting O2 into pitched wort (2 minutes) vs. slow oxygenation (3 hours)?

Nate

 

[The_Bishop]

So, I'm sitting here and sipping on the first pint of the pale ale I made using this LODO technique. The malt character might be a little better than I remember it, but that may also be confirmation bias. It's not 'eye-poppingly' different.

I'm thinking that this process is unnecessary for 90% of the beers brewed. It may be the hot ticket for a helles. Keeping DO as low as possible is also desirable from a stability standpoint.

 

[rabeb25]

So, I'm sitting here and sipping on the first pint of the pale ale I made using this LODO technique. The malt character might be a little better than I remember it, but that may also be confirmation bias. It's not 'eye-poppingly' different.

I'm thinking that this process is unnecessary for 90% of the beers brewed. It may be the hot ticket for a helles. Keeping DO as low as possible is also desirable from a stability standpoint.

If I am not mistaken you didn't spund it, you fined it, and you dry hopped it.. correct? If so, your post needs a disclaimer, since you didn't follow our method. In our findings if you did not spund and you fined, and/or you dryhopped your malt flavor is mostly gone already, and the rest will be gone probably within the next week or so.

I learned that first hand.

 

[Iseneye]

You really need to do some proper sensory difference testing before you claim that any of these techniques (or reduction of oxygen on the hotside) makes a significant difference in the finished beer.

They can claim what they want. Do the Brulosopher articles require the participants to do sensory perceptions? There have been enough posters on the german forum who said it makes a difference that I am going to try it myself. If I dont notice a difference then my only loss is making a mash cap but will still have a batch of beer at the end of it.

 

[aprichman]

They can claim what they want. Do the Brulosopher articles require the participants to do sensory perceptions? There have been enough posters on the german forum who said it makes a difference that I am going to try it myself. If I dont notice a difference then my only loss is making a mash cap but will still have a batch of beer at the end of it.

My comment was directed towards the author who as a scientist should know that significance is a statistical measure and an important step to address the validity of his claims. Science doesn't work by saying "a bunch of people on a forum agree", sorry but that just doesn't cut it.

Here is some material to review if you are not familiar with significance testing: http://www.stat.yale.edu/Courses/1997-98/101/sigtest.htm

FWIW Brulosopher does test for statistical significance although he is not claiming that his research is definitive.

 

[Magnus314]

If I dont notice a difference then my only loss is making a mash cap but will still have a batch of beer at the end of it.

This is exactly how I felt. Tinkering with the brew process is like 80% of what I like about brewing.

Anyone tried the cheap spunding valves with no gauge?

 

[Gnomebrewer]

I used my kettle as the mash tun, and when I do no sparge it is completely full and the inset lid makes a perfect mash cap.

Can i just natural carb in the keg with the remaining few gravity points, without a spunding valve?

Won't I have a humongous amount of yeast and trub if i rack while it's still fermenting?

I brewed two batches LoDO nearly two weeks ago (a Belgian pale ale and and a Pilsner) - they are both in kegs now. Instead of spunding valves, I just check the keg pressure twice a day (by attaching my CO2 cylinder and reg to the keg) and vent most of the CO2 if the pressure is over 12psi. It seems to be working.

As for yeast/trub, I'm assuming it will be the same as what's normally left in a secondary - about 0.5 to 1L in my beers. I've made up more than that but shortening my gas tubes.

 

[TexasWine]

I brewed two batches LoDO nearly two weeks ago (a Belgian pale ale and and a Pilsner) - they are both in kegs now. Instead of spunding valves, I just check the keg pressure twice a day (by attaching my CO2 cylinder and reg to the keg) and vent most of the CO2 if the pressure is over 12psi. It seems to be working.

As for yeast/trub, I'm assuming it will be the same as what's normally left in a secondary - about 0.5 to 1L in my beers. I've made up more than that but shortening my gas tubes.

How many days in did you transfer to the kegs? Been a busy week and I haven't had a chance to prep the keg I'll be spunding in.

 

[rabeb25]

Its not by days in, its by gravity.

 

[rabeb25]

I brewed two batches LoDO nearly two weeks ago (a Belgian pale ale and and a Pilsner) - they are both in kegs now. Instead of spunding valves, I just check the keg pressure twice a day (by attaching my CO2 cylinder and reg to the keg) and vent most of the CO2 if the pressure is over 12psi. It seems to be working.

As for yeast/trub, I'm assuming it will be the same as what's normally left in a secondary - about 0.5 to 1L in my beers. I've made up more than that but shortening my gas tubes.

For the ale you will need a pressure of around 30psi if at room temp in that keg.

 

[TexasWine]

Its not by days in, its by gravity.

Yes, I know. But I'm trying to get an idea of when I should expect to transfer. Checked gravity this morn and it's down to 1.033, so still a ways to go.

 

[rabeb25]

For me and my pitch rates, that would be day 5 of lager fermentation at 45F. But I don't know what your pitch rates are. What is your gravity drop per day? That should tell you when it will be time.

 

[mongoose33]

My comment was directed towards the author who as a scientist should know that significance is a statistical measure and an important step to address the validity of his claims. Science doesn't work by saying "a bunch of people on a forum agree", sorry but that just doesn't cut it.

Here is some material to review if you are not familiar with significance testing: http://www.stat.yale.edu/Courses/1997-98/101/sigtest.htm

FWIW Brulosopher does test for statistical significance although he is not claiming that his research is definitive.

Even then, that something is statistically significant i.e., a greater than chance number of tasters were able to distinguish between the two test beers, doesn't give us a definitive answer as to taste.

There's at least one brulosophy exbeeriment where it gained statistical significance but the tasters who were able to discriminate between the two batches were fairly split in terms of which beer they liked better.

The conclusion to that must be that yes, the beers are different--but which one you'd like probably depends on your palate. Ergo, tastings, while certainly important, are not the be-all and end-all--unless virtually everyone tasting agrees that one is better than another, or that everyone agrees that one beer exhibits more of a specific characteristic (maltiness?) than the other.

 

[RedlegEd]

I agree with that sentiment. I expect that the most delicate, malt focused beers have the greatest probability of benefiting from LoDO. I'm not sure if I can get there, but I'm willing to try. I think the recommendations from that paper have a decent amount of scientific support and are worth exploring. I'm searching for ways to get closer to that LoDO condition to see if it makes a difference in my light lagers.

Martin. I have a supporter version of Bru'n Water. If I decide to try the LoDO method (preboil and add NA-Meta or K-Meta,) how do I modify the variables in your spreadsheet to/for my base water analysis to accommodate the change in chemistry due to boiling? I noticed a significant change in the profile when it's boiled (e.g. profile of Edinburgh v. Edinburgh Boiled.) Would boiling my base water also not change the chemistry of that water? Thanks, Ed

 

[Gnomebrewer]

For the ale you will need a pressure of around 30psi if at room temp in that keg.

Thanks. Interestingly, the Belgian ale (WLP530) is carbonating more slowly at 21C than the pilsner is (WLP833) at 3C. The ale has only reached 10PSI after about a week, the lager has needed frequent venting to maintain 12PSI. Both were transferred to keg at 1.015, with fast ferments finishing at 1.006 (ale) and 1.008 (lager). Both taste awesome (except for the sulphur on the lager, which should clear up with time).

 

[Gnomebrewer]

FWIW Brulosopher does test for statistical significance although he is not claiming that his research is definitive.

Firstly I want to say that I really enjoy reading Brulosopher's stuff, and really like what he does for brewing. It has really helped me question and change some of my brewing practices. That aside.....

If you truly understand statistical significance, you'll know that all he's ever really testing for is a significant difference between two batches of beer. Unless there are multiple (at least three) batches of EACH beer of the two varieties being compared (i.e. at least six batches of beer in total), you can't say if the difference between them is attributable to the variable being changed or to random chance. It would actually be quite a big task to set up a rigorous test to compare LoDO to traditional brewing (in a way that would stand up to peer-review). Much easier to just try it (or try one somebody else brewed) and see what you think.

 

[rabeb25]

Firstly I want to say that I really enjoy reading Brulosopher's stuff, and really like what he does for brewing. It has really helped me question and change some of my brewing practices. That aside.....

You will rethink that after you realize all the "exbeeriments" are tainted by oxidized beer...


Right we would need phd's and undergrads to setup the proper testing and all the paperwork needed. That's a lot of work to do to try and convince a bunch of people on the internet. At the end of the day, you either try it or you don't, but it doesn't change the fact that I enjoy glorious mug after mug of beautiful un-oxidized beer at my house.

This is made from the recipe in the paper, and its nothing short of mind blowing. (No orange oxidation tint in this beer)

 

[dsniegocki]

I think that this has somewhat been answered earlier in the thread (and I think I can guess the answer), but just to clarify: is the LoDO method something that SIGNIFICANTLY affects ANY beer that is brewed to the same degree? Or is this a method that pertains mostly to recreating German styles?

 

[rabeb25]

Everybeer I have brewed since December 2015, has been brewed LODO (~50 batches), From pale ales, to wheat beers( American and German), cream ales, light adjunct lagers, helles, pils, dunkel, etc. All nothing short of amazing, when you strictly follow the guidelines in the paper.

 

[mabrungard]

Would boiling my base water also not change the chemistry of that water?

If the tap water has high temporary hardness, pre-boiling could alter the hardness and alkalinity. However if you are just boiling for a minute to reduce DO, I'm not sure that you will affect the ionic content that much.

 

[dsniegocki]

Another silly question... although I generally do not brew with extract, I am curious if an adaptation of these processes could apply to extract brewing? Is anyone aware of whether extract manufacturers generally employ oxidation-preventative measures in their production of extract?

 

[rabeb25]

Another silly question... although I generally do not brew with extract, I am curious if an adaptation of these processes could apply to extract brewing? Is anyone aware of whether extract manufacturers generally employ oxidation-preventative measures in their production of extract?

Something as fragile as this flavor, I would doubt is still around after those processes.

 

[dsniegocki]

We appreciate you sharing your experiences, and I am looking forward to trying the mini-mash experiment. In your opinion, what is a good example of a readily-available commercial product that I could try as a way of understanding the flavor you are describing?

 

[rabeb25]

We appreciate you sharing your experiences, and I am looking forward to trying the mini-mash experiment. In your opinion, what is a good example of a readily-available commercial product that I could try as a way of understanding the flavor you are describing?

Anything you can get here from Germany thats not been abused, shoot for it in a can.. Bitburger, Konig, etc. Jarhundert is my personal favorite, but its usually abused( and in bottle only).

 

[aprichman]

Firstly I want to say that I really enjoy reading Brulosopher's stuff, and really like what he does for brewing. It has really helped me question and change some of my brewing practices. That aside.....

If you truly understand statistical significance, you'll know that all he's ever really testing for is a significant difference between two batches of beer. Unless there are multiple (at least three) batches of EACH beer of the two varieties being compared (i.e. at least six batches of beer in total), you can't say if the difference between them is attributable to the variable being changed or to random chance. It would actually be quite a big task to set up a rigorous test to compare LoDO to traditional brewing (in a way that would stand up to peer-review). Much easier to just try it (or try one somebody else brewed) and see what you think.

Not to be disrespectful, but I don't think you really understand what you are talking about. A difference test will allow you to determine if two beers are different. In this case you would brew 2 beers on the same setup with the same ingredients, same fermentation temperatures, etc. One would be brewed with the techniques described here, the other would be brewed without worrying about HSA. A difference test (either a duo-trio or a triangle test) would allow you to determine if a group could tell the difference between the two beers.

This would at least attempt to evaluate your claims that these techniques matter.

Not sure why you are talking about multiple tests needing to be run, unless you want to start running ANOVA tests.