Interesting German Brewing PDF

[mabrungard]

OK, I'll send the check when I pony up and buy the DO probe!

 

[Edelst0ff]

I ordered some as well. I don't trust that it will do the job that smb does in the mash so I'm looking more to see if it helps on the cold side first. Maybe the Brewtan will give a little extra protection post boil when the smb is all used up? Maybe help in finding as well?

Reading this interesting presentation, it looks like this requires a. Filter stage in order to remove it from the beer.

Not a problem for me but maybe not what some would contemplate.

One the upside they recommend coarse Diatomecous Earth in order to rid the beer of this product, and that is readily available on eBay.

 

[mabrungard]

Reading this interesting presentation, it looks like this requires a. Filter stage in order to remove it from the beer.

It only needs to be filtered, if its added during the packaging step. If added during mashing or in the kettle, it is precipitated in either the kettle or fermenter.

 

[Edelst0ff]

Indeed. Thanks for pointing this out.

BTW the EBC estimate I get from your spreadsheet is quite dead on to the actual Lodo result.

Must say I'm perplexed but it could be a false positive

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Found this article titled "An new alternative to increase the flavor stability of the beer". It discusses oxidation in wort. In sounds like an advertisement for the product mentioned "Antioxyn SBT". The product is a mixture of Gallotannins (which is what Brewtan B is), Potassium Metabisulfite (used in the LoDO paper), and Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C which has been mentioned in all this somewhere). An excerpt:

"The gallotannin, which seems to be the most effective potential anti-oxydant, needs to be
complexed with traditionnal ani-oxydant to increase its effect on the wort. Together with
metabisulfite of potassium and ascorbic acid, developped as Antioxin®SBT, the effect on
lypoxygenase can be improved"

https://www.uclouvain.be/cps/ucl/doc/inbr/documents/Declerck_2009_flavour-stability_beer.pdf

Another product is from BSG called Antiox C:

https://bsgcraftbrewing.com/antiox-c-10-lb

Its comprised of Potassium metabisulphite, Ascorbic acid, and Sodium carbonate......so its similar to the other product, just without the gallotannins.

 

[rabeb25]

Correction, we use SODIUM Metabisulfite, not K. K concentrations above 10ppm in the mash is detrimental, so the references say. But yes, these 2 products fueled the use of meta in the early stages of the "revelation".

 

[stpug]

K concentrations above 10ppm in the mash is detrimental, so the references say.

I'm interested in what kind of detriments to the mash that >10ppm K is said to have in your references. I ask because I put forth my first attempt at as many of the PDF steps as I could muster at short notice, however I only had KMeta for this attempt (a problem which has now been solved ).

As for my mash, it showed complete conversion with clear wort in the BK. I actually had increased efficiency from typical, but suspect it may be from a low potential I estimated for the homemade torrified wheat I used (likely), OR the additional 30 minutes I used for the mash (unlikely).

Flavor impacts from the K levels is where my concern lies now, but initial sampling from the beer (a british ale) at 48 hours into fermentation doesn't indicate anything abnormal. The sample was good at 48 hours postbrew, not that it means anything at that point .

Edit:
I think my levels of K would be ~11mg/l for the entire preboil brew water amount (1500mg K2S2O5 in 30 liters). If we however concentrate the K in the final volume then it increases a fair amount to ~17mg/l. Assuming I understand how the K would break out of the structure (which I probably don't) AND didn't totally screw the math (which I probably did).

 

[rabeb25]

Its in Narziss, maybe Band 2 or Abriss. We started off with Kmeta and I don't think we saw any negative effects, but the documentation said to stay away from it, so we did.

"The sample was good". Describe good?

 

[stpug]

Its in Narziss, maybe Band 2 or Abriss. We started off with Kmeta and I don't think we saw any negative effects, but the documentation said to stay away from it, so we did.

"The sample was good". Describe good?

Then there's still hope for this batch, even with the levels of K that it possibly contains. I wonder if there's potential for too quick of conversion, or some such thing??

As for "good", it was literally a spoonful from the fermenter at 48 hours postpitch when I had just finished top cropping yeast. I can't put ANY weight into it, but if I had to describe it, I would say that a light toasty character from the large torrified wheat and small pale chocolate addition was the most prominent malt character with some distinct (but not overwhelming) fruity British-yeast esters; it was quite dry; and firmly bitter too. I was actually very surprised but the beer tasted like it was at final gravity in that short amount of time; granted, I was experimenting with a different-for-me warm fermentation schedule that probably increased the activity quite a bit. But, again, I can't hold my breath for any of this description to hold through to the final beer because of when this sample was tasted (but I HOPE that toastiness I tasted holds through!).

 

[ajdelange]

I'm interested in what kind of detriments to the mash that >10ppm K is said to have in your references.

I asked in a previous post in this thread why adding > 10 mg/L K to a product that typically contains 500 - 1000 was a problem. I didn't get an answer.

 

[techbrau]

We originally started using kmeta and got the same great results we're seeing with nameta. I don't think it is a huge issue and am not certain why Narziss says what he says, but our logic was a bit Pascal-ish because nameta and kmeta are basically the same price and both widely available anyway.

I'm sure that as more people experiment with the LODO process it will become clearer what are the essential aspects, and what parts are more forgiving. The whole idea of the pdf was to give everyone a common baseline, as in "if you follow this procedure exactly we can guarantee that you will see the same results as us". That doesn't mean that the process shouldn't evolve over time.

 

[TexasWine]

I asked in a previous post in this thread why adding > 10 mg/L K to a product that typically contains 500 - 1000 was a problem. I didn't get an answer.

I've got a lot of Kmeta sitting around for making wine. It'd be nice if I could use it in my low DO experiment as well.

 

[stpug]

I asked in a previous post in this thread why adding > 10 mg/L K to a product that typically contains 500 - 1000 was a problem. I didn't get an answer.

I didn't know that about the amount of potassium in barley. That's very interesting, and everything I find online indicates your are 100% correct (no surprise there ).

That does make for an interesting point in regards to K- vs Na-metabite in this low oxygen brewing process, and which element might go more unnoticed in beer brewing. At the levels of Na and K found in beer (39ppm vs 278ppm, respectively), it would seem that K would go totally unnoticed at it's minor additional levels, as opposed to the Na which, granted, would still be fairly minor. But, it certainly makes more sense that an added 25ppm (for example) to 278 K is much less noticeable than 25ppm to 39 Na. This may make a case that Kmeta is the "better" choice of the two? Perhaps, this is too simplistic and there's something I'm overlooking.

I wonder why the Narziss reference would indicate that Kmeta is a detriment to the mash. I would assume he was well aware of the levels of K in malt already.

Hmm, not sure what to make of all of this besides maybe it's safe to say that either metabite powder should work equally as well? I don't know.

 

[stpug]

We originally started using kmeta and got the same great results we're seeing with nameta. I don't think it is a huge issue and am not certain why Narziss says what he says, but our logic was a bit Pascal-ish because nameta and kmeta are basically the same price and both widely available anyway.

I'm sure that as more people experiment with the LODO process it will become clearer what are the essential aspects, and what parts are more forgiving. The whole idea of the pdf was to give everyone a common baseline, as in "if you follow this procedure exactly we can guarantee that you will see the same results as us". That doesn't mean that the process shouldn't evolve over time.

You're absolutely right. The pdf seems to be an excellent jump-off point to try what you folks have been working so hard to accomplish, and gives the rest of us a nice set of steps that are easily followed. It will be interesting to see how the process evolves over time and to see what kind of creative solutions folks come up with to tackle various obstacles in the process - and to, hopefully, simplify some parts.

As for now, I'm thinking Kmeta might be just as, or more, useful than NaMeta. I happened to have Kmeta for my first brew, now I have NaMeta. I've also got Lactic and Phosphoric acids for brewing. I'm set for any kind of brewing

 

[rabeb25]

I didn't know that about the amount of potassium in barley. That's very interesting, and everything I find online indicates your are 100% correct (no surprise there ).

That does make for an interesting point in regards to K- vs Na-metabite in this low oxygen brewing process, and which element might go more unnoticed in beer brewing. At the levels of Na and K found in beer (39ppm vs 278ppm, respectively), it would seem that K would go totally unnoticed at it's minor additional levels, as opposed to the Na which, granted, would still be fairly minor. But, it certainly makes more sense that an added 25ppm (for example) to 278 K is much less noticeable than 25ppm to 39 Na. This may make a case that Kmeta is the "better" choice of the two? Perhaps, this is too simplistic and there's something I'm overlooking.

I wonder why the Narziss reference would indicate that Kmeta is a detriment to the mash. I would assume he was well aware of the levels of K in malt already.

Hmm, not sure what to make of all of this besides maybe it's safe to say that either metabite powder should work equally as well? I don't know.

Not Kmeta, Just K.

 

[rabeb25]

As for now, I'm thinking Kmeta might be just as, or more, useful than NaMeta. I happened to have Kmeta for my first brew, now I have NaMeta. I've also got Lactic and Phosphoric acids for brewing. I'm set for any kind of brewing

I did my fair share of "going against" what the references claimed, until everytime I kept coming back full circle to what they said to begin with.

 

[TexasWine]

Noodling in this whole low DO process and thought about a little tool I use in making wine. Essentially it's an air eductor that allows you to pull a vacuum using your air compressor. I use it to degas my wine before bottling. The vacuum end goes into a rubber stopper.

Any of you folks that have done the low DO thing see any use for it? For instance, could I leave the lid on during the boil and use this thing to remove the boiled off steam and volatile components? In theory, if I had a really good sealed system that could withstand some amount of vacuum, I could even reduce the boiling temp. I've pulled 22 mmHg on a glass carboy before (though i wouldn't recommend repeating my folly).

 

[Iseneye]

Techbrau - I had a look at your fermentation setup which was in answer to my question about using the receiving keg as an airlock - i.e. hook fermenting keg up to receiving keg during fermentation. Receiving keg will have spunding valve. Do you do the full 02 water purge on the receiving keg with this system or is there enough C02 from fermentation that you don't bother?

 

[techbrau]

I don't purge the receiving keg before hooking it up. With the fermentation CO2, racking fully fermented beer into the keg I can achieve under 0.4 ppm DO. However, when I rack with 1-2% extract left and do a traditional lagering cycle in the receiving keg, the finished beer has zero DO.

 

[Bilsch]

I've pulled 22 mmHg on a glass carboy before (though i wouldn't recommend repeating my folly).

Your a brave man.
I've imploded small flasks in the lab doing work under vacuum and it was some kind of disaster. Almost a bigger bang then over pressuring, so I can't imagine pulling a vacuum on a carboy without a blast shield.

 

[Edelst0ff]

...
So, while they agree that reduction of hotside O2 is beneficial to Hellesbier, they don't think that the extent of your assertions are necessary. Not wrong, just more than required.

Indeed this is a distinct possibility. It's precisely why our thoughts got published: to get feedback of this sort.

Many thanks! It's certainly food for thought. I'm sure there will be plenty of refinements over time.

 

[Edelst0ff]

I wonder why the Narziss reference would indicate that Kmeta is a detriment to the mash. I would assume he was well aware of the levels of K in malt already.

Hmm, not sure what to make of all of this besides maybe it's safe to say that either metabite powder should work equally as well? I don't know.

Either will work equally well. Mr Narziss mentioned potassium levels in the context of water preparation for brewing, where he stated that levels higher than 10 mg/l are undesirable.

Verifying this goes way over my level of competence, so we took it for face value (not a terrible assumption, considering the source) and switched from K to Na metabisulfate.

It may not be sticky necessary it or noticeable. I honestly don't know. But it seemed prudent and no trouble to switch to Na MBS instead.

 

[TexasWine]

Your a brave man.
I've imploded small flasks in the lab doing work under vacuum and it was some kind of disaster. Almost a bigger bang then over pressuring, so I can't imagine pulling a vacuum on a carboy without a blast shield.

Yeah, I won't be testing my luck again. Looking back it was pretty stupid and I'm very fortunate I didn't get hurt. I've since switched to a gentler form of degassing, using my vacuvine wine stopper instead to hold a lower level of vacuum over the course of a few days/weeks.

 

[Iseneye]

I'm heading down the rabbit hole and thinking of getting a DO meter. The one that the german brewing guys use is the Exstik II which I can get over here at a hefty price. I've looked at the spec sheets and it says a resolution of 0.01ppm but an accuracy of 0.4ppm. They don't specify whether the 0.4 is 95% CI or one sigma or anything about it. If I have read the specs right then isn't this meter too inaccurate for measuring DO where you are trying to determine <0.2ppm?

 

[techbrau]

Dry hopping while the yeast is still in suspension doesn't work well. A lot of the hop oils get dragged down and out of suspension when the yeast drops.

I don't see a need to sit on a keg of a hop-forward beer for a few weeks, when I can crash the yeast out and hit it with finings to produce crystal clear beer within a week of the ferment being finished.

I've carried this experiment as far as I'm willing to, within the limits of the brewing equipment I have and without major alterations to my process.

I understand where you're coming from, believe me. But keep in mind that all those hops you put in your hop-forward beers stay perfectly fresh for a year or more in their nitrogen packed (and oxygen free) bags. Why don't your IPAs keep fresh for a year or more? Consider the possibility that poor oxygen control is the biggest reason why so many hop-forward beers have such a short shelf life.

We've had Lodo pale ales that were dry hopped at the end of primary and then spunded to carbonate experience no noticeable loss in hop aroma/flavor over 2-3+ months in the keg.

 

[ajdelange]

They don't specify whether the 0.4 is 95% CI or one sigma or anything about it. If I have read the specs right then isn't this meter too inaccurate for measuring DO where you are trying to determine <0.2ppm?

Only the manufacturer can tell you what he means by 0.4 mg/L accuracy. When it comes to pH electrodes I have figured that since an electrode is perfectly accurate when you calibrate it (just as a clock is absolutely correct right after you set it) accuracy must refer to the rms error relative to the buffer pH in a set of readings over a period of time. IOW it is a measure of electrode drift. The only manufacturer of a pH meter that I have ever seen to actually state what he means by accuracy is Hach WRT the Pro pH+ and they confirm what I suspect. I note with interest that later editions of their instruction 'manual' are more vague on this than the earlier editions.

In any case as drift is gradual over time the error is going to be more like a bias error than a random error so that the obvious "Well, just take 100 measurements" isn't going to get 400 ppb rms error down to 40.

There are additional considerations here as well. With both Clark and LDO electrodes you should have 0 current when PaO2 is 0 but in both cases there is 'dark' current and so, while, for example, my LDO meter doesn't do a cal at 0, the meter does read 125 ppb (its accuracy spec is 100 ppb) but the sensor cap is years overdue for replacement) in a 0 oxygen solution. This is obviously a systematic error as it is very stable over time so I suppose I could back it out but I'd need to do quite a bit of checking to be sure I was correctly reading at the 40 ppb level with an electrode spec'ed at 100 ppb.

 

[Magnus314]

Since I read this, I've done 3 batches with as "low oxygen" as possible, incl. mash caps, preboil, NaMeta, etc. The first batch is almost ready now.

The questions I have are:

1. BIAB no sparge seems PERFECT for this if you 1) drain the bag low-to-kettle level/no splashing while it drains, and 2) don't squeeze (I don't anyway).

2. How do you do this approach with ales, IPA dry hops, secondaries etc.?

3. THIS IS THE BIG ONE! Is lowering the HSA/Hot Side Oxidation dramatically going to create a better product even if I can't get under the mythical PPM's/PPB's you're talking about?

4. I tried a couple Ayinger beers, and while they were good, they weren't substantially better than other beers on the same import shelf.

Am I missing anything?...

 

[TexasWine]

Since I read this, I've done 3 batches with as "low oxygen" as possible, incl. mash caps, preboil, NaMeta, etc. The first batch is almost ready now.

The questions I have are:

1. BIAB no sparge seems PERFECT for this if you 1) drain the bag low-to-kettle level/no splashing while it drains, and 2) don't squeeze (I don't anyway).

2. How do you do this approach with ales, IPA dry hops, secondaries etc.?

3. THIS IS THE BIG ONE! Is lowering the HSA/Hot Side Oxidation dramatically going to create a better product even if I can't get under the mythical PPM's/PPB's you're talking about?

4. I tried a couple Ayinger beers, and while they were good, they weren't substantially better than other beers on the same import shelf.

Am I missing anything?...

Just did my first low DO yesterday. Boy, what a long day!

1. That's exactly what I did.
2. Dry hop towards the end of primary before transferring to the spunding keg. I had hoped to use two magnets to keep the dry hops pinned to the roof of the fermenter and then just pull the outside one off to drop the hops (and inside magnet) in. But, I don't think I have enough head space to pull that off.
3. Dunno.
4. I tried a Pilsner Urquell for the first time two days ago. I concluded that while it was definitely good, it wasn't OH MY GOSH I CAN'T BELIEVE MY TASTE BUDS. Not entirely sure if this was a good beer to try to find "it".

Hope this helps some.

What are you doing for a mash cap? I haven't found a very good solution yet. "Floated" a small stainless lid on it yesterday, but had to keep it supported with my ratchet pulley. I want to find a solution that doesn't involve penetrating the cap to return the wort.

Lastly, it appears not every low DO brewer uses a mash cap.

http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?p=3604#p3604

 

[Magnus314]

I used my kettle as the mash tun, and when I do no sparge it is completely full and the inset lid makes a perfect mash cap.

Can i just natural carb in the keg with the remaining few gravity points, without a spunding valve?

Won't I have a humongous amount of yeast and trub if i rack while it's still fermenting?

 

[brewmeister13]

Yet another question to pile on the rest. Is anyone else concerned with using NaMeta in their brewing liquor and then pitching yeast the same day? Definitely not a microbiologist or even a scientist, but doesn't NaMeta inhibit yeast growth and even cause cell death?