Interesting German Brewing PDF

[catsnbeer]

I've carried this experiment as far as I'm willing to, within the limits of the brewing equipment I have and without major alterations to my process.

Seems totally reasonable to me, I am sure the lodo folks will tell you that everything else you did was a waste but I will be very curious to hear how your beer turns out.

Even if you didn't do everything just the way that was laid out in the document doesn't mean that your results aren't totally valid. Look forward to hearing more!

Also, If you did want to try racking with a spunding valve - it seems like if you rack your beer off the cold break then there will be very little trub to worry about in the bottom of the keg - just yeast that would blow out in a few pints (that's been my experience anyway).

As far as dry hopping goes, is there any DO data available for dry hopping? Hops contain antioxidants which might reduce the DO?? Just curious...

 

[The_Bishop]

Here's what I recommend then. Remove the DO from the sanitizer that you fill your keg with to purge. You can preboil it and fill the keg with boiling water (you may not need sanitizer in this case) or use 50 mg/l SMB to scavenge the oxygen.

If you fine with gelatin, dose the water you use to dissolve the gelatin with 25-50 mg/l SMB (a tiny pinch)

Dosing with SMB seems more reasonable. I have the means to measure very small doses, so that's not an issue.

 

[starsman20]

Well I don't know if that paper's full of malarkey or what...pretty sure 19th century German brewers weren't doing any of that.

But I do know that ANYTHING would taste better if being served by:

Mugs and Jugs!!

 

[wobdee]

Here's what I recommend then. Remove the DO from the sanitizer that you fill your keg with to purge. You can preboil it and fill the keg with boiling water (you may not need sanitizer in this case) or use 50 mg/l SMB to scavenge the oxygen.

If you fine with gelatin, dose the water you use to dissolve the gelatin with 25-50 mg/l SMB (a tiny pinch)

I thought we were doing 6-10 mg/l SMB for keg? I thought higher doses were causing off flavors?

 

[Eddievxx]

I don't have any kegs; I bottle all my beer but perhaps in an unusual way: I bottle my Lagers straight from the primary fermentor (with priming sugar), carbonate at about 20C for a couple of weeks, then lager the bottles for however long the style dictates.

With that in mind, is there any particular issues I need to be aware of when bottling with LODO in mind? Will the presence of yeast (active enough to carbonate the bottles) effectively scrub the oxygen picked up in the transfer and in the bottle headspace?

Also, I only brew BIAB. Anybody got thoughts on the extra areas of concern for BIAB regarding to LODO?

Cheers!

 

[techbrau]

I thought we were doing 6-10 mg/l SMB for keg? I thought higher doses were causing off flavors?

This is not to be added to the kegged beer. It is merely for removing oxygen from sanitizer that is then pushed out with CO2 to purge the keg before filling

 

[Iseneye]

Hmmm...very interesting. I've read this thread, the german brewers thread, and the PDF. I am keen to give it a go and can probably do most of it except I have a copper wort chiller. Stainless steel ones are not available online in New Zealand at the moment. The PDF says that copper is a no go - I assume there is no way around that?

I thought I had brewing covered with water chemistry, recipes, fermenting in kegs allowing low oxygen transfers. This is some advanced stuff.

 

[techbrau]

Copper IC is less than ideal but better than a copper mash tun or boil kettle. It probably won't ruin the beer but stainless is safer.

 

[Iseneye]

Thanks - I'll see how it goes. One other question (thanks for the quick reply). I ferment in corny kegs and transfer to second keg via CO2. I am in the process of ordering a spunding valve. Would it make sense to hook up my fermenting keg to the keg with a spunding valve say half way through fermentation? That way the CO2 from fermentation is reducing / removing the O2 from the spunding keg. This would be in addition to purging the spunding keg prior to connection.

Hopefully that makes sense. I still have great memories of having Augustiner Lagerbier Helles in Munich in 2014. I would love to get closer to that. I have a Helles on tap at the moment that is the best I have made. It is exciting that it could potentially be even better.

 

[techbrau]

Thanks - I'll see how it goes. One other question (thanks for the quick reply). I ferment in corny kegs and transfer to second keg via CO2. I am in the process of ordering a spunding valve. Would it make sense to hook up my fermenting keg to the keg with a spunding valve say half way through fermentation? That way the CO2 from fermentation is reducing / removing the O2 from the spunding keg. This would be in addition to purging the spunding keg prior to connection.

Hopefully that makes sense. I still have great memories of having Augustiner Lagerbier Helles in Munich in 2014. I would love to get closer to that. I have a Helles on tap at the moment that is the best I have made. It is exciting that it could potentially be even better.

http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=321

 

[Gnomebrewer]

This is a very interesting read; thanks for taking the time to write such a detailed procedure.

I'm thinking about how I could adapt my system to these process and would be interested in hearing some thoughts.
I use a plate chiller. I believe the plates are copper. How much of an impact is this likely to have, and is pre-rinsing the copper with acid solution likely to help remove the oxide layer?

This has already been asked, but not answered. How would this work if bottling rather than kegging? (note: I do both - keg and bottle. I like to have some beer in bottles, but my bottling gun is crappy for oxygenation).

How do you manage to chill quickly to 5-6C?

How soon after adding yeast do you oxygenate?

Are plastic fermenters a problem with this process?

Is it worth flushing grain with CO2?

 

[TexasWine]

I believe the plates are copper.

That is a really good question. I use a plate chiller too and I believe the plates are brazed together with copper. Hopefully the minimal amounts of copper wing really have an impact. I have a stainless immersion chiller as well, but has planned on using it as a pre chiller when employing the LODO processes

 

[techbrau]

I can't guarantee how well copper will work in the Lodo process. A chiller is likely to be less damaging than a copper kettle, but it is still less than ideal. You should be able to rinse off the oxide layer with an acid like starsan. If at all possible I would use a stainless chiller.

For bottling with natural carbonation you can either add some krausen or priming sugar right before bottling but I would not wait too long as you don't want the yeast to fall asleep. The other option is to time your bottling such that you fill the bottles from the fermenter when you still have enough residual extract left to carbonate. It's basically the same idea as spunding but you're using a bottle instead of a keg.

You can also fill bottles from a keg but you will see flavor loss. Is is helpful to have extra SMB in this case. See here: http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?f=57&p=3318#p3318

I use an aquarium pump with a sterile filter and 0.5 micron stone to aerate after I pitch the yeast. I have the flow rate set very slow and measured that it delivers approximately 2-3 ppm oxygen per hour to the wort. I set it going immediately after pitching and let it go for about 4 hours. The yeast scavenge the oxygen faster than it can get in. If your yeast is freshly grown, they should start scavenging immediately so it's fine to aerate once the yeast are in solution.

None of us use plastic fermenters but I don't see it being an enormous problem since the beer is in the primary fermenter for such a short time. My lagers are pitched at 41F, fermented at 46F, then ramped down to 41F and ready to rack to the lagering keg - the entire primary ferment takes 6-7 days for me. Remember to pitch enough yeast! (20-30 million cells per ml for a 1.048 OG beer)

We haven't flushed grain with CO2 yet but I did think about vacuum sealing my milled grist in a bag and CO2 flushing the bag before doughing in. It's worth a try.

 

[TexasWine]

How are y'all bringing your temps down so low prior to pitching? Ice batch and pre chiller?

 

[techbrau]

I recirculate ice water through my IC using a utility pump and a bucket.

 

[jddevinn]

Interesting read. I'm still working through KUNZE and Brewing Science and Practice but I do see some interesting parallels in O2 from them and this. With the equipment I have I can set up the hot side fairly easily... I do all I can to avoid cold size oxidation (I've made some sizable rants in the past on the subject) but not anything to this detail. To get the low ppm target here I'll either have to look at using the "german method" of kegging and fermentation or preferably an alternative method to fully purge kegs and lines (probably with steam).....

Y'all make a lot of DO measurements... what Do meter are y'all using? Any suggestions on where to get one at a decent price point?

 

[Iseneye]

More questions:

What are you doing with yeast starters? With a stirbar there will be a lot of oxygen in the starter that is getting poured into the wort. Do you also worry about splashing when pouring the yest into the wort?

Do you think the capping of the mash is making a difference? Unless you are somehow making a seal then isn't air diffusion going to result in the same amount of 02 exposure as if it wasn't capped?

Any reason for not recommending 34/70 in the PDF? Has someone tried this method with 34/70 or is it an assumption that the dry yeast will not be as good?

 

[rabeb25]

Interesting read. I'm still working through KUNZE and Brewing Science and Practice but I do see some interesting parallels in O2 from them and this.

Y'all make a lot of DO measurements... what Do meter are y'all using? Any suggestions on where to get one at a decent price point?

Thats cause Kunze is in our references

Extech do600 I think. Thats what we all have.

 

[rabeb25]

More questions:

What are you doing with yeast starters? With a stirbar there will be a lot of oxygen in the starter that is getting poured into the wort. Do you also worry about splashing when pouring the yest into the wort?

Do you think the capping of the mash is making a difference? Unless you are somehow making a seal then isn't air diffusion going to result in the same amount of 02 exposure as if it wasn't capped?

Any reason for not recommending 34/70 in the PDF? Has someone tried this method with 34/70 or is it an assumption that the dry yeast will not be as good?

I don't make starters personally. I pitch 4 vials direct for the first pitch, then use slurry for all the rest.

Capping- Absolutely. Much smaller surface area for O2 to re-absorb.

I again personally HATE the flavor of 34/70, plus we found that without the Bavarian strains you don't get enough sulfur to carry over and help protect.

 

[Iseneye]

I don't make starters personally. I pitch 4 vials direct for the first pitch, then use slurry for all the rest.

Capping- Absolutely. Much smaller surface area for O2 to re-absorb.

I again personally HATE the flavor of 34/70, plus we found that without the Bavarian strains you don't get enough sulfur to carry over and help protect.

Thanks for the reply. Liquid yeast strains in NZ are around $14us per vial so won't be doing that. I haven't used 34/70 for a number of years but the lodo pitching rates are very high and 34/70 would have been a way round that. I'll be doing a starter.

 

[cladinshadows]

To clone Ayinger Jahrhundert, which, frankly is one of the main reasons (Augustiner, WO, take your pick) anyone is paying attention to this thread, how do YOU do it?

This hits the nail on the head. Jahrhundert was a major eye-opener for me the first time I had it, even just from a bottle in the US. It's got that certain... special... something. I had never tasted something like that before and I needed it in my kegerator. I still do.

Thanks, everyone, for the lively discussion and especially to the authors for what I feel is a very practical article in the context of presenting an ideal process from the perspective of the homebrewer. Maybe it's not easily achievable or necessary for the majority of us, but if your perfect beer is a Helles, Festbier, or Dortmunder like you had in Germany then I have to think that even a partial incorporation of these methods is worth trying in an attempt to advance your quest.

govner1 invoked the word of Mosher:

I think it was Randy Mosher that said " making really good beer is easy to do, understanding it is nearly impossible" or something similar to that.

While surely The Science can help many of us wrap our heads around or believe in someone's claim, I think I may be a Blue Pill Brewer when it comes to this one. If any of these methods gets me closer to what I tasted in Germany and what I taste in Jahrhundert, I'm trying it. I don't need to understand it - if it works, I'm certain it'll be worth the extra effort on my pale German brews. Two extra hours of "work" on a brewday pays back tenfold when you enjoy the results in dimpled mug for the next two months.

 

[stpug]

... for the next two months.

Two months?? You must have meant two weeks

 

[mabrungard]

Y'all make a lot of DO measurements... what Do meter are y'all using? Any suggestions on where to get one at a decent price point?

I saw this unit at the Craft Brewers Conference this month. Quite impressive...quite costly for the typical homebrewer: $2100 plus the communication unit which I believe was in the $600 range.

http://www.hamiltoncompany.com/products/process-analytics/sensors/dissolved-oxygen/visitrace-do/VisiTrace-DO-120

Can be used in wort to 80C and it is not damaged by temperatures up to 140C. The unit automatically stops measurement at 80C since the luminencent coating is damaged by the laser at higher temps.

 

[DonQuixote]

This article was kinda depressing. I thought I was making damn good beer but according to the Germans I've been making oxidized swill. My entire system needs to be overhauled. I guess i will have to buy a few German Helles examples and see for myself what the big deal is.

 

[ajdelange]

I saw this unit at the Craft Brewers Conference this month. Quite impressive...quite costly for the typical homebrewer: $2100

I use a Hach LDO (also optical) probe which costs a couple hundred bucks but has accuracy of 100 ppb at 0. Still out of range for a home brewer. And I'm guessing it won't handle the temperature either (the body is plastic but so is the sensor).

..plus the communication unit which I believe was in the $600 range.

This thing has standard industrial 4-20 loop output and should work with any 4 - 20 loop system. You could easily read it with an Arduino. You owe me $600 less the cost of the Arduino!

With the cheaper Hach unit you will, of course, need a meter (that takes intellical electrodes) to plug the electrode into. As all the brains are in the electrode you could probably kluge up an Arduino rig for this too.

 

[doug293cz]

I use a Hach LDO (also optical) probe which costs a couple hundred bucks but has accuracy of 100 ppb at 0. Still out of range for a home brewer. And I'm guessing it won't handle the temperature either (the body is plastic but so is the sensor).

...

A common rule of thumb for industrial measurement equipment is that it should have an accuracy and precision no worse than 0.1 of the level you are trying to measure and control. So, if we are trying to control DO to ~100 ppb, then our DO meter needs to have a resolution of 10 ppb or less, and an accuracy of +/- 10 ppb or less. So the Hach meter seems to be marginal, at best, for this application. The $2100 unit has a resolution down to 0.5 ppb, so is much more suitable (but totally out of the reach of most homebrewers.)

Brew on

 

[ajdelange]

I obviously wasn't suggesting the Hach element (which is fine for checking oxygenation of wort which is what I use it for) anymore than the Hamilton which is obviously for use on finished beer where ppb measurements are necessary. In electrical engineering we usually say the measurement noise should be 10 dB below the minimum you are trying to measure (as that introduces 0.1 dB error). Thus for 100 ppb we would want 'noise' below 32 ppb.

Many, many of us have had to make measurements below the noise level in our careers and, of course, the easiest way to do that is to average as long as you are certain the 'noise' is indeed noise i.e. not systematic error (bias). But then if it is bias and you can estimate it you can subtract it off. Etc.

 

[mabrungard]

This thing has standard industrial 4-20 loop output and should work with any 4 - 20 loop system. You could easily read it with an Arduino. You owe me $600 less the cost of the Arduino!

While reading the unit could be done with that equipment, I don't believe that is how it's powered or controlled. I think you would still have to use their equipment.

 

[UndeadFred]

Interesting. I made a decent Munich Helles for a local club comp (I'm still waiting for results). Tasted pretty much like the commercial examples side by side, different maybe a little (better than at least one of them from the Fatherland) but it seemed within style.

Joined the German Brewing Facebook group last night. Found out I made it completely wrong. Hmm...

I suspect that I can try to do some of the suggestions like Na-Meta (or K-Meta) and I've been trying to have an excuse to buy a Spunding valve for a long time anyway. However, this is much like the glass versus plastic fermenter experiment correctly criticized here by Marshall Schott. (I actually told him that was the first time I saw an article that had to be operator error... I called BS on it because there was no technical reason that the PET carboy should have taken off slower than the glass, if it were O2 the opposite would be expected and I still stand by that). In that, I suspect it doesn't matter. I won't use glass no matter what, it's dangerous. In the context of this LoDO stuff, I am with many of the other people. I'll hit the low hanging fruit but due to many constraints I will stick with BIAB, my electric fired keggle. I guess I will recirculate into a whirpool instead of the fly sparge style shower I have now, but I have to do it or my temperature stratifies too much.

Doing a transfer from my PET carboy to the keg with a spunding is certainly possible, I've already started to make a system where I start a siphon with CO2 to transfer, and I suppose I can just use it to push the entire bugger out instead of a siphon. The Spunding in the keg? It's okay, I don't mind the little bit of yeast at the end, it only matter when cleaning the kicked keg anyway...

But beyond that is major bucks.

What says the LoDo consensus on just those changes to the process? Worth it? Because that is about as far as I am willing to go.

 

[ajdelange]

I don't know of course but 4 - 20 is used in industrial settings all the time for it's noise immunity. In general you hook up the loop to your 4 - 20 'controller' which does no more than put a nominal voltage on the line. The device then controls the current in the loop to 4 mA for mimimum and 20 mA for maximum and the controller reads that current, D/A converts it and sends it on for processing. The processor needs to know what the min and the max are. With this arrangement you can out pH meters, DO meters, ORP meters, thermometers etc. all over your plant at locations quite remote from the control area. Is it possible to design a system that will only work with your proprietary controller? Sure. Is this one of those? Don't know.

Does this mean no cheque?