Interesting German Brewing PDF

[germanbrewing]

Agree! Another important point is that LoDO offers the opportunity to produce a different beer character and quality. Please notice that I didn't say that it was necessarily 'better'. We know that we can make pretty good beers without LoDO, but I concede that we might find that the methods might make beers better in some ways. I think this is worth exploring.

"Different" is right on. "better" is up to the individual. It seems like 95% of the homebrew world doesn't care for beers from Freising, for example, so your mileage will definitely vary. For me, the most significant benefit here has been getting light kilned malt to taste more like I want it to, and noble hops to pop more like they should. Less muted and dull. But for me, that is a significant step in the right direction.

The analogy we used for a long time was that we were all brewing 80-90% beers. They could win medals, people generally liked or really liked them. But they weren't quite up to par with the originals, they always came out flat and dull next to commercial examples. I'd been trying to break that barrier of getting the right fresh flavor. I have a beer on tap that is a funky mix of Pils malt, light kilned Munich and Carared...this turned out (at least for me) to be a horrible mess done without low O2 (I have both non and low O2 versions). But brewed low O2, the flavors are clean, malty and fresh. Malt aroma is clean and fresh as well.

That said, I agree that it is worth exploring and I'm excited to see what folks who try it find and come up with.

 

[BrunDog]

I think the Galileo comment sums it all up. To the guys who come on here calling "shenanigans" and demanding scientific proof... you can go away now. @techbrau and others here have done EXACTLY what hobby forums like this are all are about - share their ideas and passions freely. Information without disclaimer... Consume what you like and ignore the rest.

Now get going, because you have THOUSANDS of daily posts to go contest.

 

[The_Bishop]

Skepticism is a *good* thing.

Blind acceptance without question is as wrongheaded as blind rejection.

Go away? Not happening. We learn from questioning. Any concept that cannot stand up to scrutiny isn't worth talking about. I merely took umbrage with the somewhat pompous delivery.

 

[techbrau]

You're not going to advance knowledge by sitting at your keyboard.

Go try the mini mash and then brew a batch of Lodo beer for yourself.

 

[TexasWine]

I'm gonna give this LODO thing a whirl. I like the process of making beer even more so than drinking it. Couple of questions to start with.

Looks like some folks use a mash cap. Would it be just as effective to purge the mash tun with CO2 prior to the mash? I'm thinking about throwing the grains in there too, after they're crushed. I can make a tight fitting lid that should hold up to low pressures.

Next, if I can't chill all the way to lager temps, would it be acceptable to pitch warmer and let the temp coast down in the fermentation chamber?

If you're using sanitizer to push out air from your kegs, then using CO2 to push the sanitizer out, how much sanitizer are you leaving behind in the keg and does it add some unwanted O2 to the process?

Would it work to simply let my beer finish out fermentation in primary, transfer it to a keg with priming sugar in it and let the beer naturally carbonate itself in the keg?

Also, why weren't you successful in simply purging kegs with CO2? Seems that you could pressure up and depressurize a few times, let it sit over night allowing the CO2 to sink to the bottom of the keg and O2 rise to the top, and depressurize again the next day to get rid of the O2. How did you measure your results to know that CO2 purging just wasn't cutting the mustard?

This is gonna either be really fun, or really frustrating!

 

[The_Bishop]

Gasses don't stratify like that. The easiest way to ensure that most of the O2 is purged is to fill the keg as full as possible with sanitizer and push it out with CO2.

You can chill down as far as your water will let you, then put the wort in your sanitized fermenter and chill the rest of the way in your chamber and cool it the rest of the way to lager temps before pitching. This will minimize ester formation.

 

[rabeb25]

Gasses don't stratify like that. The easiest way to ensure that most of the O2 is purged is to fill the keg as full as possible with sanitizer and push it out with CO2.

You can chill down as far as your water will let you, then put the wort in your sanitized fermenter and chill the rest of the way in your chamber and cool it the rest of the way to lager temps before pitching. This will minimize ester formation.

Exactly. Even with the low foaming sanitizers(I use saniclean for this, since foam=air), you have the air in the liquid left behind in the sanitizer, and the air pickup from the transfer, which is why we recommend the transfer and spund with extract left. When allowing the beer to fully ferment and then transferring to a purged keg like indicated above, I saw roughly .8ppm of pick up, couple that with a force carb(bottled co2 is not pure) you easily have enough air (.015 target) to lose your lingering malt freshness in a week. We went so far as connecting a fermenting keg to a empty serving keg, and allowing the co2 from fermentation to purge the keg. I believe fermentation puts out around 25x more co2 than its volume. That method still netted .4-.5ppm which was enough to kill lingering malt in 4 weeks. This is all of course measured with DO meters. Now because of this EVERY beer I make is transferred and spunded, its the only way to reasonably keep down cold side DO. Short of another SMB addition on racking, which we have tested, but the general consensus was to make SMB additions a little as possible.

 

[TexasWine]

Exactly. Even with the low foaming sanitizers(I use saniclean for this, since foam=air), you have the air in the liquid left behind in the sanitizer, and the air pickup from the transfer, which is why we recommend the transfer and spund with extract left. When allowing the beer to fully ferment and then transferring to a purged keg like indicated above, I saw roughly .8ppm of pick up, couple that with a force carb(bottled co2 is not pure) you easily have enough air (.015 target) to lose your lingering malt freshness in a week. We went so far as connecting a fermenting keg to a empty serving keg, and allowing the co2 from fermentation to purge the keg. I believe fermentation puts out around 25x more co2 than its volume. That method still netted .4-.5ppm which was enough to kill lingering malt in 4 weeks. This is all of course measured with DO meters. Now because of this EVERY beer I make is transferred and spunded, its the only way to reasonably keep down cold side DO. Short of another SMB addition on racking, which we have tested, but the general consensus was to make SMB additions a little as possible.

Good info. Did y'all also test purging a keg by introducing the CO2 through the liquid out post? Seems that could possibly do a better job at purging the atmospheric O2.

Also, have you tried the combo of purging the keg as you recommend (with sanitizer and CO2) and naturally carbonating in the keg with priming sugar?

 

[rabeb25]

Good info. Did y'all also test purging a keg by introducing the CO2 through the liquid out post? Seems that could possibly do a better job at purging the atmospheric O2.

Also, have you tried the combo of purging the keg as you recommend (with sanitizer and CO2) and naturally carbonating in the keg with priming sugar?

Yes, and cutting gas posts off flush to not allow anything trapped above the gas post. Simple purging is not effective, because of gas mixing. so we though to be effective you would need a really slow flow and a huge amount of co2 (the fermentation co2 trick, which didn't pan out), or you need vacuums and purges. We didn't even try naturally carbing in the keg, since it could allow for o2 ingress with the stop of fermentation, and its generally a no no to do that for the German beers.

 

[TexasWine]

Yes, and cutting gas posts off flush to not allow anything trapped above the gas post. Simple purging is not effective, because of gas mixing. so we though to be effective you would need a really slow flow and a huge amount of co2 (the fermentation co2 trick, which didn't pan out), or you need vacuums and purges. We didn't even try naturally carbing in the keg, since it could allow for o2 ingress with the stop of fermentation, and its generally a no no to do that for the German beers.

Man, sounds like y'all have tried every permutation!

Last Q (for now). What did you find was the best method for pulling a sample to determine when to rack to the keg?

 

[wobdee]

I haven't progressed to spunding as of yet and have just been purging with Co2 prior to transfer as well as a dose of 10mg/l SMB and my results have been pretty good as of late. My last 3 kegs have not lost any of that lingering malt flavor and aroma. I did have a problem with those flavors fading at first but after I increased the dose slightly it seemed to get better. I like the idea of spunding better but for now I have to go this route until I get permission for more equipment and another freezer.

There's new product out there called Brewtan-B that supposably helps with the cold side that I'm looking into as well but there is very little info and experiences with it so far.

 

[rabeb25]

Man, sounds like y'all have tried every permutation!

Last Q (for now). What did you find was the best method for pulling a sample to determine when to rack to the keg?

We have! Thats how we have arrived at the paper, and just a simple set of steps.

Well like every true brew master, I am down in the "fermentation cellar" every night sampling the beers. I am usually transferring when the beer hits 1.014.

 

[ajdelange]

This isn't going to be helpful for most but I'll put it out anyway as the concept may stimulate thinking. I use Sankey kegs exclusively. If you can live with the cost (1 time, of course) there are many advantages to them and with the recent availability and popularity of the sixtels we still have the 5 gal volume that home brewers love.

Before filling I sanitize my cleaned kegs by running live steam through them for 15 - 20 minutes. At the conclusion of this the outlet is closed and the keg pressurized to 10 - 15 psig with steam. As soon as the steam coupler is removed it is replaced with one connected to 30 psig CO2. As the keg cools and the volume of water vapor is reduced CO2 rushes in to replace it. When cool some of the CO2 is used to blow out the condensate and I have a sanitized keg under at least 1 atmosphere (gauge) CO2 pressure. The kegs are then filled from a fermenter which has been under positive CO2 pressure since it was spunded.

At filling there is still plenty of yeast in suspension and their job is to lager the beer over the coming months and keep it in reduced state for as long as it takes me to consume the keg. I've never bothered to measure the DO in this beer as I'm pretty sure (from the fact that it is 'fresh' for 2 - 3 years) that no oxidation is taking place in the kegs.

 

[techbrau]

Sankey kegs are far better than corny kegs and I have considered switching to them. You can fill them with practically zero headspace, unlike corny kegs. Unfortunately I am brewing 3 gallon batches these days and haven't yet seen 3 gallon sankeys.

 

[Bilsch]

AJ.. What are you using for your steam generator?
Really like the steam sterilize and purge method!

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Gasses don't stratify like that. The easiest way to ensure that most of the O2 is purged is to fill the keg as full as possible with sanitizer and push it out with CO2.

You can chill down as far as your water will let you, then put the wort in your sanitized fermenter and chill the rest of the way in your chamber and cool it the rest of the way to lager temps before pitching. This will minimize ester formation.

Would the chilling in the chamber not cause negative pressure in the fermenter, thus inviting oxygen in? I know it would be but 10-20 degrees, but at what temp range would O2 invade?

I haven't progressed to spunding as of yet and have just been purging with Co2 prior to transfer as well as a dose of 100mg/l SMB and my results have been pretty good as of late. My last 3 kegs have not lost any of that lingering malt flavor and aroma. I did have a problem with those flavors fading at first but after I increased the dose slightly it seemed to get better. I like the idea of spunding better but for now I have to go this route until I get permission for more equipment and another freezer.

There's new product out there called Brewtan-B that supposably helps with the cold side that I'm looking into as well but there is very little info and experiences with it so far.

I've ordered some Brewtan-B from Australia after reading about it on another forum. The product supposedly helps on the hot side also as there is a mash addition and a boil addition. Here is a presentation of Brewtan.

https://www.uclouvain.be/cps/ucl/doc/inbr/documents/presentation-olav-tavernier.pdf

 

[techbrau]

Brewtan B itself is a weak antioxidant and its main way of fighting oxidation is by eating up metal ions which can participate in Fenton processes. Effectively, the metals become super oxidizers which make the oxidation reactions happen even faster. Stopping those processes can potentially slow down oxidative reactions a little bit, but it won't stop them. With Fenton acceleration the oxidation reactions may happen in fractions of a second; without, maybe it takes them "only" 30 seconds to 1-2 minutes to reach peak activity.

Sulfite is cheap, safe, widely available, and has no adverse side effects in your beer. It has also proven to be effective when used as part of our process in over 100 batches of Lodo beer.

I encourage you to try both sulfite and Brewtan B. Don't get your hopes up for Brewtan B though.

 

[rabeb25]

Would the chilling in the chamber not cause negative pressure in the fermenter, thus inviting oxygen in? I know it would be but 10-20 degrees, but at what temp range would O2 invade?

Yes, it would. It gets dicey, so you either chill to pitch temp immediately.. OR hedge your bets on what is going to hurt you less. O2 ingress, or yeast flavors. Personally I would chose yeast, cause I loathe o2.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Brewtan B itself is a weak antioxidant and its main way of fighting oxidation is by eating up metal ions which can participate in Fenton processes. Effectively, the metals become super oxidizers which make the oxidation reactions happen even faster. Stopping those processes can potentially slow down oxidative reactions a little bit, but it won't stop them. With Fenton acceleration the oxidation reactions may happen in fractions of a second; without, maybe it takes them "only" 30 seconds to 1-2 minutes to reach peak activity.

Sulfite is cheap, safe, widely available, and has no adverse side effects in your beer. It has also proven to be effective when used as part of our process in over 100 batches of Lodo beer.

I encourage you to try both sulfite and Brewtan B. Don't get your hopes up for Brewtan B though.

Oh, I'm not. Just something to try out. BTW, I asked this before, but I assume BIAB is a definite no in trying to recreate this?

 

[rabeb25]

Personally I think BIAB (more so bag squeezing) isn't a great brewing method to begin with, in my trials I saw a very noticeable decrease in quality, but no need to go out in the weeds now. BIAB can produce a LODO beer. BE careful with the bag lift, its going to hurt you in more ways than 1.

 

[ajdelange]

AJ.. What are you using for your steam generator?
Really like the steam sterilize and purge method!

A garden variety boiler obviously intended for the replacement market in houses which are still steam heated.

The idea came about when I got a guy in to get a bid on having it installed. He asked if I was doing crabs. Greatly puzzled I said no and asked what had made him think that. He answered that he was part owner in a crab house and that they used that same boiler. I expressed concern that the raw steam would be kind of icky and he said no, not if you have a culinary steam filter and that's when the idea came to me. So I got the filter and have been filling kegs this way ever since. BTW, it also works very nicely at steaming crabs!

 

[wobdee]

I've ordered some Brewtan-B from Australia after reading about it on another forum. The product supposedly helps on the hot side also as there is a mash addition and a boil addition. Here is a presentation of Brewtan.

https://www.uclouvain.be/cps/ucl/doc/inbr/documents/presentation-olav-tavernier.pdf

I ordered some as well. I don't trust that it will do the job that smb does in the mash so I'm looking more to see if it helps on the cold side first. Maybe the Brewtan will give a little extra protection post boil when the smb is all used up? Maybe help in finding as well?

 

[catsnbeer]

Sulfite is cheap, safe, widely available, and has no adverse side effects in your beer. It has also proven to be effective when used as part of our process in over 100 batches of Lodo beer.

This is a slightly different take but there is likely something to be said for naturally occurring antioxidants/polyphenols present in malt and hops and tailoring recipes to maximize the reucing power of the wort or finished beer. There is quite a bit recent academic brewing study about this.

Also, on another note, in the method proposed here, are potassium metabisulfite and sodium metabisulfite interchangeable?

 

[brewmeister13]

Just a couple of questions. First, I plan to try the mini mash test. I've noticed that everything is mentioning Sodium Metabisulfite, but my LHBS only has Potassium Metabisulfite. Is there any reason dosing with potassium rather than sodium would be a bad idea?

Also, I was doing some searching about low oxygen brewing and stumbled across a paper with a different focus. It was about colloidal stability. It stated:

"Beers made from mashes in the complete absence of air were not bright after fermentation, containing a colloidal milkiness which did not settle. Beers from normally oxidised mashes clarified well and those from strongly oxidised mashes clarified very well and rapidly."

Have you noticed this in any of the beers brewed LODO? Here is a link to the entire paper if you are interested: http://www.skotrat.com/go/default/brewing-info/beer-haze/

 

[rabeb25]

We started off using Kmeta, but after reading the references in the paper more thoroughly it was written that anything above 10mg/l of K in the mash was too much, so we switched to NAmeta. The NAmeta also lends a little NA to the water profile which is nice anyways.

I have zero issues with clarity, and I don't fine or anything.

Colloidal stability is another reason to LODO, absolutely.

 

[mabrungard]

A garden variety boiler obviously intended for the replacement market in houses which are still steam heated.

The idea came about when I got a guy in to get a bid on having it installed. He asked if I was doing crabs. Greatly puzzled I said no and asked what had made him think that. He answered that he was part owner in a crab house and that they used that same boiler. I expressed concern that the raw steam would be kind of icky and he said no, not if you have a culinary steam filter and that's when the idea came to me. So I got the filter and have been filling kegs this way ever since. BTW, it also works very nicely at steaming crabs!

AJ, That is a brilliant method. Then again, I don't think anyone thinks you're a dim bulb, so this is par for you! I wish I had the equipment to employ it.

 

[Bilsch]

I've ordered some Brewtan-B from Australia after reading about it on another forum. The product supposedly helps on the hot side also as there is a mash addition and a boil addition. Here is a presentation of Brewtan.

Say.. aren't we trying to keep the astringent tannins out of our beer?

Tannic acid is quite astringent so I would think adding any would be counterproductive in smooth malty beers.

 

[Bilsch]

A garden variety boiler obviously intended for the replacement market in houses which are still steam heated.

I second that about it being brilliant method!

Immediately starting me thinking about retrofitting my pressure cooker with a valve and silicone line connected to a metal ball lock disconnect for corny kegs, hooked to the 'out port' with the dip tube.
Build up a few pounds in the cooker, open the keg pressure relief, and blow out the keg. Not only would it pretty quickly de-aerate the keg, it would also (if you flipped it) have the second benefit of blowing out and or washing out the excess starsan foam, which I personally dislike.
At the same time you would have the gas post connected to your CO2 to quickly get some atmosphere back in the keg after turning off the steam or you'd collapse the corny very flat.

I know I have some nomex coveralls around here somewhere.

 

[GotPushrods]

I second that about it being brilliant method!

Immediately starting me thinking about retrofitting my pressure cooker with a valve and silicone line connected to a metal ball lock disconnect for corny kegs, hooked to the 'out port' with the dip tube.
Build up a few pounds in the cooker, open the keg pressure relief, and blow out the keg. Not only would it pretty quickly de-aerate the keg, it would also (if you flipped it) have the second benefit of blowing out and or washing out the excess starsan foam, which I personally dislike.
At the same time you would have the gas post connected to your CO2 to quickly get some atmosphere back in the keg after turning off the steam or you'd collapse the corny very flat.

I know I have some nomex coveralls around here somewhere.

Keep us updated if you try that. I've been wanting to steam purge my cornies for years but haven't yet. I've wondered if the rubber and glue would hold up to those temps. Where do you find all-metal disconnects?

For now I pump StarSan into the liquid out post and tilt the keg so the gas post is the highest point. I've also cut the gas dip tube so no air can be trapped. I let StarSan overflow, while gently shaking, until there are no bubbles coming out. I think I'm REALLY close to 100% purged after pushing that out with CO2, but steam is my end-game.

 

[The_Bishop]

Personally I think BIAB (more so bag squeezing) isn't a great brewing method to begin with

Ok, oxygen aside - Why?

I have medals from a recent brewing competition and feedback from national rated judges at the competition that say there's nothing wrong with my brewing method, which is *exactly* the same as no-sparge, except the mash tun is the kettle and lautering consists of slowly lifting the grain basket out. There is 0 deadspace loss and little/no chance of a stuck sparge.