Interesting German Brewing PDF

[schematix]

There is actually about 3 ounces (WAYYYY too much) of air left in the lid in most kegs due to the way the PRV extends into the keg. I've been trying to come up with ways to purge completely....been thinking about welding a NPT purge port to my lids.

I saw this in the thread with JayBird the other day and was like what the hell is this guy talking about???

Makes sense now. If you fill the keg in the upright position you will still have a pocket of air. All I did is take it from probably 8oz to 3oz. Almost thinking it would be better to fill in the inverted position.

 

[jddevinn]

I saw this in the thread with JayBird the other day and was like what the hell is this guy talking about???

Makes sense now. If you fill the keg in the upright position you will still have a pocket of air. All I did is take it from probably 8oz to 3oz. Almost thinking it would be better to fill in the inverted position.

hahah, yea... I usually purge multiple kegs in a row and fill from the out port, and end up wiggling the lid all over trying to get the smallest air pocket possible.

 

[GotPushrods]

There is actually about 3 ounces (WAYYYY too much) of air left in the lid in most kegs due to the way the PRV extends into the keg. I've been trying to come up with ways to purge completely....been thinking about welding a NPT purge port to my lids.

I cut the gas tube flush and tilt the keg 45* with the gas post high. I pump sanitizer in he liquid post until it pours out the gas post. I shake the keg gently as it overflows. After about 15 seconds past full and overflowing, I can no longer hear any airspace when shaking the keg. It's certainly not a steam purge, but I've gone from 3-4 months to 18+ months before I can detect the beer turning. I still don't think it's perfect but it's the best I've come up with before the diminishing returns of some convoluted Goldberg method of purging. Steam... Someday!

 

[PlinyTheMiddleAged]

I cut the gas tube flush and tilt the keg 45* with the gas post high. I pump sanitizer in he liquid post until it pours out the gas post. I shake the keg gently as it overflows. After about 15 seconds past full and overflowing, I can no longer hear any airspace when shaking the keg. It's certainly not a steam purge, but I've gone from 3-4 months to 18+ months before I can detect the beer turning. I still don't think it's perfect but it's the best I've come up with before the diminishing returns of some convoluted Goldberg method of purging. Steam... Someday!

I do almost the same but instead of cutting the gas dip tube, I remove the gas post and pull the dip tube. I fill (with sanitizer) what I can through the lid and work the bubble up to the spot where the gas post was. Then fill through the hole where gas dip tube lives. Once there's no more bubble, I replace the dip tube and post. Pretty easy. I've got an IPA that I've had in tap since the end of April - as of last night it is still nice and fresh!

 

[schematix]

Does 2.5 qt/lb sound about right for no sparge brewing? That and 20lbs of grain should put my 15 gallon boiler maker mash tun up to the brim. No need for a mash cap ;-)

 

[doug293cz]

Does 2.5 qt/lb sound about right for no sparge brewing? That and 20lbs of grain should put my 15 gallon boiler maker mash tun up to the brim. No need for a mash cap ;-)

2.5 qt/lb is a typical full volume mash thickness. I get your mash volume at a hair over 14 gal. Depending on conversion efficiency, your pre-boil SG should be in the range of
1.047 (90%) to 1.052 (100%.)

Brew on

 

[schematix]

2.5 qt/lb is a typical full volume mash thickness. I get your mash volume at a hair over 14 gal. Depending on conversion efficiency, your pre-boil SG should be in the range of
1.047 (90%) to 1.052 (100%.)

Brew on

Just realized a few minutes ago i neglected to consider grain absorption in my calculations so i might be up to 2 gallons short of target. I think i'm going to leave the extra volume of deoxygenated and treated strike water in the BK with the lid on (where i plan to boil the strike water) as top up water and hope i'm on the higher end of the efficiency range (I normally get 90-92% with sparge).

Worst case i'll have Helles Light.

 

[doug293cz]

Just realized a few minutes ago i neglected to consider grain absorption in my calculations so i might be up to 2 gallons short of target. I think i'm going to leave the extra volume of deoxygenated and treated strike water in the BK with the lid on (where i plan to boil the strike water) as top up water and hope i'm on the higher end of the efficiency range (I normally get 90-92% with sparge).

Worst case i'll have Helles Light.

Using your original numbers, your pre-boil volume (corrected to 68˚F) would be 9.85 gal, assuming 0.12 gal/lb grain absorption and 0.25 gal undrainable MLT volume. So, if you're looking for a ~10 gal batch, then you are short strike water.

Brew on

 

[schematix]

Some notes from today's brew:

Following recipe as closely as possible. Some exceptions noted:
1. Recipe - Using 82% Pilsner and 6% vienna since i was little over a lb short on Pilsner malt and didn't want to crack open a new 55lb sack for that. Impact on color was 0.1 SRM and impact on pH was to the 3rd decimal place.
2. Mash/Lauter - Using small volume of sparge water (about 5G since my MLT wasn't big enough). Second Hockhurz step I did at 158 (70C) instead of 162 (72C).
3. Chilling - I used a copper IC since my other chiller option would be a blichmann therminator, which also contains copper too so not ideal.

Notable points:
Grain conditioning - first time doing this. used 2% water with 100ppm SMB. Never seen my Barley Crusher tear through grain so easily. There were a lot more whole hulls than I normally get. A lot of kernels seemed to get smashed rather than blown to bits. Very little flour.

Mash in - When i underlet the mash the grain didn't float (as indicated). It did however seem kind of dense. I gently stirred. Is this density an issue or should i just leave it? There is literally 0 mash odor! I am going to adopt this technique for the future just to appease my wife who hates the mash smell. Through the entire mash you couldn't smell anything.

Boiling water - is a soft boil with the lid on (or barely cracked) acceptable? My vent hood only covers my BK and I dont' want to be putting that much moisture into the air in my basement.

Wort sample taste - WOW! the smell that normally fills my brewery is now all flavor in my wort! I've never had this flavor or aroma before. It is exactly as described... sweet grain.

My efficiency took a huge dive. Not sure what to blame but will investigate my measurement devices first since my pre-boil hydrometer reading was 11.2P and my final hydrometer reading was 1.044.

P.S. Anyone want to buy a therminator? I'm done with it.

 

[wobdee]

I kind a miss that smell during brew day but can't complain after tasting the results.

I use to boil with my lid on about 75% and never had an issue, I was a little under powered back then. I have a spare 3500w induction burner if your interested.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

I can't help but wonder a couple things....

Since this seems like this is something German breweries have been onto for some time now then why the hell would Speidel design a system that introduces so much HSA during the mashing process? The way this has all been presented these systems trample on all the knowledge you'd assume they are well aware of being a company located in Germany that produces brewing equipment.
The other thing is what other breweries implement all of this? It was asked before but there really wasn't much of an answer given other than Michelob Original and that Bud has too much rice. If this is as crucial as its being made out to be then it would make sense that every single brewery AB Inbev buys out would start implementing these procedures. That or they're knowingly allowing breweries they own to disregard procedural understanding and continue making an inferior product. While possibly true thats a tough pill to swallow.
Now Im not on one side or the other with all of this Im just trying to look at the context of it all and see things for what they are.

 

[Edelst0ff]

Using degassed water is not exactly a secret.

Loads of illustrious people like Kunze, Narziss, Fix... are very clear about this issue.

But home brewers don't have degassing columns or membranes. So the use of SMB is a, in my view, elegant way of achieving similar without huge trade-offs or investment.

Unfortunately too much has been crammed into the suggested approach (the 'paper'). Concentrating on the water and fermentation aspects alone will produce quite noticeable results.

I see the 'paper' not as a scientific paper, but more of a writeup of a series of experiments where collective findings from studying the brewing texts mentioned above, were published.

For more in-depth treatment and ample data I would suggest a copy of Wolfgang Kunze's book -- which is also available as english translation.

Of course one can do very good beers in other ways. For some styles it may not be appropriate even. The focus here was purely on German Lagers. For wheat beers and ales the story may be a little different. For e.g. I found that using too much SMB in wheat beer has negative effects post fermentation.

 

[Kit_B]

Now Im not on one side or the other with all of this Im just trying to look at the context of it all and see things for what they are.

That's good, because there are no sides.
We all just want to make better beer.

Unfortunately too much has been crammed into the suggested approach (the 'paper'). Concentrating on the water and fermentation aspects alone will produce quite noticeable results.

Right...This was an attempt at an all-encompassing guide to achieving the freshness we were seeking & had found, by implementing the listed methods.
It's a lot to cover, in one shot...But, it is worth the effort.
Once you start doing these things, they easily become like second-nature & good brewing habits begin to form.
It takes a little un-learning & re-learning, but the method really makes some amazing light lagers.
I highly recommend that everyone give it a few tries.

 

[Iseneye]

I can't help but wonder a couple things....

I'm going to sound like I've got my head in the sand but I don't care what other breweries are doing. I've done LODO, there is a difference in flavour and I'm going to continue doing LODO.

Not all German breweries use LODO techniques. I went to a small brewery in Konstanz (Joh. Albrecht) and they had the liquor flowing from either the mash tun or the boiler through an open hole to the kettle / fermenter below.

 

[Spartan1979]

I'm going to sound like I've got my head in the sand but I don't care what other breweries are doing. I've done LODO, there is a difference in flavour and I'm going to continue doing LODO.

Not all German breweries use LODO techniques. I went to a small brewery in Konstanz (Joh. Albrecht) and they had the liquor flowing from either the mash tun or the boiler through an open hole to the kettle / fermenter below.

Some German breweries use coolships. That certainly isn't LODO either.

I'm still thinking about this, but there are many ways to homebrew and one should just do what suits you.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

I'm going to sound like I've got my head in the sand but I don't care what other breweries are doing. I've done LODO, there is a difference in flavour and I'm going to continue doing LODO.

Not all German breweries use LODO techniques. I went to a small brewery in Konstanz (Joh. Albrecht) and they had the liquor flowing from either the mash tun or the boiler through an open hole to the kettle / fermenter below.

None of this really answers my questions though lol. Out of curiosity have you been DO testing at every step? Have you almost nailed everything and had it all slip away by the slightest misstep? Im not trying to hassle you Im just curious because its laid out to be a razor thin line without any grey area. One shot one kill or once its gone its gone. But, if your not hitting everything to a T and still seeing general improvement because your introducing less HSA then its not that drastic. Im not sold on this blink and its gone in a flash stuff but I understand where limiting unnecessary oxygen exposure throughout your process helps the shelf life of your beer.
Personally I'd like to experiment with this Brewtan B stuff Ive been reading about. If it works as advertised its a much bigger game changer than people overhauling their whole set up and turning brewday into a process where your walking on eggshells.

 

[Iseneye]

None of this really answers my questions though lol. Out of curiosity have you been DO testing at every step? Have you almost nailed everything and had it all slip away by the slightest misstep? Im not trying to hassle you Im just curious because its laid out to be a razor thin line without any grey area. One shot one kill or once its gone its gone. But, if your not hitting everything to a T and still seeing general improvement because your introducing less HSA then its not that drastic. Im not sold on this blink and its gone in a flash stuff but I understand where limiting unnecessary oxygen exposure throughout your process helps the shelf life of your beer.
Personally I'd like to experiment with this Brewtan B stuff Ive been reading about. If it works as advertised its a much bigger game changer than people overhauling their whole set up and turning brewday into a process where your walking on eggshells.

Its all good. If youve read most of this thread there is plenty of discussions on why people think it wont work and wont make a difference. Ive seen this on other topics which is frustrating. Rather than trying to find reasons why this wont work people should give it a go and find out for themselves.

With regards to testing I purchased a DO meter but it was faulty and I am waiting for replacement. I wont know how low the DO is until I get it back. All I can say is that the wort is completely different and the colour of the final beer is far lighter. Ive made a LODO APA that has a similar grainbill as my standard APA with med crystal and it is nearly as pale as a blonde ale.

 

[Magnus314]

Rather than trying to find reasons why this wont work people should give it a go and find out for themselves.

This is exactly the problem.

There's about $600 or $800 worth of stuff required to do this process as stated in the pdf, and no one seems to have (or want to) isolate the "big difference" things from the relatively minor gains.

And how is anyone doing this process with Ales? It lays out very specific ferment temps, well below ale range.

If you did do an ale with this process, you'd just have to wing it on about half the steps.

 

[Iseneye]

This is exactly the problem.

There's about $600 or $800 worth of stuff required to do this process as stated in the pdf, and no one seems to have (or want to) isolate the "big difference" things from the relatively minor gains.

And how is anyone doing this process with Ales? It lays out very specific ferment temps, well below ale range.

If you did do an ale with this process, you'd just have to wing it on about half the steps.

Yes good points on the cost. I already fermented in kegs and keg my beers. Extra cost for me was stainless steel chiller and a spunding valve. IMO a DO meter is not necessary if you follow the steps in the recipe. I bought mine becausw I got the LODO bug.

Ive only done 2 ales so far and no lagers. 2 lagers are next up. Fermentation is at standard ale temps and no lagering period. Other than that the steps are the same. Dry hopping can be tricky but my current dry hopped american brown ale seems to be working.

Im sure Im coming across evangelical as a recent convert but Im super happy with the results so far.

 

[orangehero]

It's important to specify what DO meter you are using. The previously mentioned Extech DO600 meter is pretty much useless beyond 1 ppm DO while they are talking about sub 1 ppm being meaningful. It's not even clear what kind of instrumentation was used to come up with the data and conclusions in the original article.

 

[Iseneye]

It's important to specify what DO meter you are using. The previously mentioned Extech DO600 meter is pretty much useless beyond 1 ppm DO while they are talking about sub 1 ppm being meaningful. It's not even clear what kind of instrumentation was used to come up with the data and conclusions in the original article.

Im the one who questioned that earlier in this thread. DO600 has a stated accuracy of 0.4ppm from memory.

 

[TexasWine]

This is exactly the problem.

There's about $600 or $800 worth of stuff required to do this process as stated in the pdf,

I dunno about that dollar amount. I made a spunding valve for about $25 and a mash cap from a stainless steel cake pan for about $15. Assuming you already have the ability to control fermentation temps, I don't see any other additional costs. $40 total in upgrades is what I spent. Might be missing something though.

From what I've read you don't even have to keg with this method if you don't want to.

 

[schematix]

Dry hopping can be tricky but my current dry hopped american brown ale seems to be working..

What does your LoDO dry hopping process look like?

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

Its all good. If youve read most of this thread there is plenty of discussions on why people think it wont work and wont make a difference. Ive seen this on other topics which is frustrating. Rather than trying to find reasons why this wont work people should give it a go and find out for themselves.

With regards to testing I purchased a DO meter but it was faulty and I am waiting for replacement. I wont know how low the DO is until I get it back. All I can say is that the wort is completely different and the colour of the final beer is far lighter. Ive made a LODO APA that has a similar grainbill as my standard APA with med crystal and it is nearly as pale as a blonde ale.

So since your not able to test yet theres a chance your LODO beers aren't actually passing the LODO standards and your still noticing a positive difference right? If true then it would suggest people don't have to go whole hog and score 100% to get some noticeable benefits. If its all or nothing then its pointless to half ass any part of it and it shouldn't be done at all if you can't do it completely right. But if its not, this stands to help a lot more people that can't afford to go all in by implementing what they can into their process knowing they'll get something out of it.

I dunno about that dollar amount. I made a spunding valve for about $25 and a mash cap from a stainless steel cake pan for about $15. Assuming you already have the ability to control fermentation temps, I don't see any other additional costs. $40 total in upgrades is what I spent. Might be missing something though.

From what I've read you don't even have to keg with this method if you don't want to.

Depends on your set up. I don't see how my Braumeister could recirculate the mash or drain the wort any different than it does which puts me out right there. Im also not set up for doing closed system transfers(yet lol) and all the other CSA tricks. Heres the catch though... if a person isn't verifying everything they're doing to a T with a DO meter then how do they know if they ever truly got it all right in the first place?

 

[wobdee]

FWIW, I haven't gone full hog so to speak following the lodo document, still need some things for cold ferment and spunding but I'll get there eventually. Just the addition of smb and pre boiling water into my process was an eye opener, my light lagers are heads above what I used to brew.

I also have a Braumeister and it seems to work fine for this with a full volume no sparge brew. I don't think there's a way to add a tight mash cap but leaving the lid on can help.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

I also have a Braumeister and it seems to work fine for this with a full volume no sparge brew. I don't think there's a way to add a tight mash cap but leaving the lid on can help.

I figured all the splashing these things make when they spill over would be an issue.

 

[wobdee]

I figured all the splashing these things make when they spill over would be an issue.

I modified my malt pipe for 3 gal batches by drilling holes around the side. The wort just slides down the side with do splashing. The only splashing I get is lifting the malt pipe to drain and I do that very slowly little by little.

Even before I modified I didn't seem to have any splashing as the wort flowed over the malt pipe. Is yours sitting level?

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

None of this really answers my questions though lol. Out of curiosity have you been DO testing at every step? Have you almost nailed everything and had it all slip away by the slightest misstep? Im not trying to hassle you Im just curious because its laid out to be a razor thin line without any grey area. One shot one kill or once its gone its gone. But, if your not hitting everything to a T and still seeing general improvement because your introducing less HSA then its not that drastic. Im not sold on this blink and its gone in a flash stuff but I understand where limiting unnecessary oxygen exposure throughout your process helps the shelf life of your beer.
Personally I'd like to experiment with this Brewtan B stuff Ive been reading about. If it works as advertised its a much bigger game changer than people overhauling their whole set up and turning brewday into a process where your walking on eggshells.

I purchased some Brewtan B from Australia and used it on the last batch. A 3.25 gallon Black IPA that is currently being dryhopped. I tasted a sample before dryhopping and I had almost no hop aroma. Im thinking its a recipe and nylon hop bag problem. The hop bag had liquid in it after raising it. I only squeezed a bit so there was still some left in the bag. ill be direct pitching hops from now on.

One thing of interest is an experiment in the German Brewing forum using dry yeast and DME to deplete oxygen levels in the premash water (8 gallons). The DO levels were comparable to boiling and chilling to mash temps. Which makes sense since Yeast devours oxygen. The O levels were @0.47 ppm after 20 minutes and 0.18 ppm after 15 hours.

13 grams of yeast and 13 grams of DME (he later uses 6 grams Dextrose) were used. The yeast would just die off at high temps and become nutrient, and the sugar increase in minimal. One could do this to save time, then hit it with the SMB to keep O2 from re-entering and Brewtan B to keep the oxidation process to a minimum.

I might try this next and just use the yeast/sugar the night before since DO levels stay low for so long.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

I modified my malt pipe for 3 gal batches by drilling holes around the side. The wort just slides down the side with do splashing. The only splashing I get is lifting the malt pipe to drain and I do that very slowly little by little.

Even before I modified I didn't seem to have any splashing as the wort flowed over the malt pipe. Is yours sitting level?

I see. I don't own the system so no mods here. I doubt its perfectly level but I think the pump is just too strong on the 20L. I don't have this problem on the 200L because I dial back the pump speed.

I purchased some Brewtan B from Australia and used it on the last batch. A 3.25 gallon Black IPA that is currently being dryhopped. I tasted a sample before dryhopping and I had almost no hop aroma. Im thinking its a recipe and nylon hop bag problem. The hop bag had liquid in it after raising it. I only squeezed a bit so there was still some left in the bag. ill be direct pitching hops from now on.

One thing of interest is an experiment in the German Brewing forum using dry yeast and DME to deplete oxygen levels in the premash water (8 gallons). The DO levels were comparable to boiling and chilling to mash temps. Which makes sense since Yeast devours oxygen. The O levels were @0.47 ppm after 20 minutes and 0.18 ppm after 15 hours.

13 grams of yeast and 13 grams of DME (he later uses 6 grams Dextrose) were used. The yeast would just die off at high temps and become nutrient, and the sugar increase in minimal. One could do this to save time, then hit it with the SMB to keep O2 from re-entering and Brewtan B to keep the oxidation process to a minimum.

I might try this next and just use the yeast/sugar the night before since DO levels stay low for so long.

Interesting. And this is done in the mash tun?

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

I see. I don't own the system so no mods here. I doubt its perfectly level but I think the pump is just too strong on the 20L. I don't have this problem on the 200L because I dial back the pump speed.



Interesting. And this is done in the mash tun?

Premash. Im BIAB so I would treat all my water with the yeast/sugar combo, wait the appropriate time (20 minutes or 15 hours...either amount of time seems like low DO levels). This would eliminate the boiling then chilling step. Add your smb and brewtan, then mash in.

This is the way I am reading it anyway.