Increasing the Caramel Malt in a Graff?

[grainstoglass]

I have made 4 or so batches of Graff using various combinations of different specialty grains and yet while I have enjoyed each batch thoroughly, the resulting batches have been rather dry for some people. I think some of the people who try it are looking for the sweet taste they associate with regular apple cider. Anyway, despite by explanations about how cider that is bottle conditioned will always be fairly dry, I am wondering what to expect if I was to up the caramel malt and added another pound of light DME to Brandon O's Graff recipe.

What might I expect from this?

4 Gallons Apple Cider
2 Pounds Light DME
1 Pound Amber DME
.5 Pounds Caramel 120L
.5 Pounds Caramel 60L
.5 Pounds Caramel 40L

I plugged this into the malt calculator on www.buildabeer.com and it looks like it estimates a final gravity of 1.018. Now while that is way to sweet for my taste in most beers, I am wondering if it might actually work in the graff.

I plan on hopping with Saaz and increasing the amounts to balance out some of the increased maltiness. I was targeting around 10 Ibu. Is this too much? Too little?

Is this a horrible idea? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

[onipar]

I only *just* brewed my first batch of graff. It's only been in the primary for a few days so far, so my comments aren't based on experience.

However, the first thing I am wondering is what yeast you used? I think you can manipulate the final gravity a bit easier by choosing a yeast with low-medium attenuation. I know this isn't fool proof (for instance I've read that US-05 can sometimes ferment to 1.014-1.016, and other times ferment drier), but it's one thing to consider.

My thinking on the extra DME is that it will contribute more to the ABV than it will to residual sweetness, since it will mostly ferment out.

Finally, the Caramel Malt. In this area, I am very new, so I can't give too much advice. In my batch I used .5 lbs of 120 (because I used cheap apple juice, and Brandon advises to use the darker malt to combat tartness). Adding more will certainly add to sweetness, but I don't know how to tell if it's too much.

I've read that you don't want more than 1 lb of crystal usually, but that's for beer.

Oh, and I guess you could always try to backsweeten with an unfermentable sugar, the way people do with other ciders.

Anyway, hope that helps a little.

 

[jwynia]

I'm betting you'll lose most of the apple flavor. The base graff recipe is pretty balanced so you get hints of apple flavor. If you raise the profile of the caramel, you'll probably lose some apple. You might combat that by adding a couple of cans of frozen juice concentrate to bring that apple back up without adding a bunch of water along with it.

I've been doing that with some of my ciders in the graff/augmented cider category. It does bring the apple flavors a bit more forward. You do have to watch how much extra sugar/fermentables it adds, but it's worth a try.

 

[RobWalker]

Cider can be pretty sweet mate. A lot of our pub ciders here taste like pop (or soda as the yankees call it) rather than a dry, strong cider. I do agree with adding some concentrate though! It'd be an easy way to keep it as a cider but sweeten it up.

If I were you, I'd mix up some of your current batch with some sugar in a glass, and see what your tolerable gravity is on your palette. If your resulting FG from adding more caramel malt is less than that, then just go for it. I'm sure this time of year, a sweet drink will go down well over ice.

I wouldn't add more hops, but that's me. Too much going on in there...keep it simple.

 

[grainstoglass]

I only *just* brewed my first batch of graff. It's only been in the primary for a few days so far, so my comments aren't based on experience.

However, the first thing I am wondering is what yeast you used? I think you can manipulate the final gravity a bit easier by choosing a yeast with low-medium attenuation. I know this isn't fool proof (for instance I've read that US-05 can sometimes ferment to 1.014-1.016, and other times ferment drier), but it's one thing to consider.

My thinking on the extra DME is that it will contribute more to the ABV than it will to residual sweetness, since it will mostly ferment out.

Finally, the Caramel Malt. In this area, I am very new, so I can't give too much advice. In my batch I used .5 lbs of 120 (because I used cheap apple juice, and Brandon advises to use the darker malt to combat tartness). Adding more will certainly add to sweetness, but I don't know how to tell if it's too much.

I've read that you don't want more than 1 lb of crystal usually, but that's for beer.

Oh, and I guess you could always try to backsweeten with an unfermentable sugar, the way people do with other ciders.

Anyway, hope that helps a little.

Well I have used a variety of yeast in the past, but lately I've been favoring my results with S-04. Like you said though choosing a medium attentuative yeast isnt foolproof. I've had batches of graff ferment down to 1.008 with
S-04. I realize that adding the additional pound of DME would increase alcohol, but usually as you increase original gravity you also see an increase in your final gravity. Perhaps I should stick to one method and either add more crystal to my next batch or add more dme instead of both at the same time.

 

[grainstoglass]

I'm betting you'll lose most of the apple flavor. The base graff recipe is pretty balanced so you get hints of apple flavor. If you raise the profile of the caramel, you'll probably lose some apple. You might combat that by adding a couple of cans of frozen juice concentrate to bring that apple back up without adding a bunch of water along with it.

I've been doing that with some of my ciders in the graff/augmented cider category. It does bring the apple flavors a bit more forward. You do have to watch how much extra sugar/fermentables it adds, but it's worth a try.

This sounds like a good idea. Perhaps I will get rid of the additional malt extract, reduce the caramel malt a bit, and add a few cans of apple concentrate after I figure out the sugar content and how much it is going to boost my original gravity.

 

[grainstoglass]

Cider can be pretty sweet mate. A lot of our pub ciders here taste like pop (or soda as the yankees call it) rather than a dry, strong cider. I do agree with adding some concentrate though! It'd be an easy way to keep it as a cider but sweeten it up.

If I were you, I'd mix up some of your current batch with some sugar in a glass, and see what your tolerable gravity is on your palette. If your resulting FG from adding more caramel malt is less than that, then just go for it. I'm sure this time of year, a sweet drink will go down well over ice.

I wouldn't add more hops, but that's me. Too much going on in there...keep it simple.

This sounds like a good idea and would enable me to work backwards to redetermine an appropriate final gravity. Then its just a matter of figuring out how to hit that target. I never thought of adding the concentrate, but after having two people mention it on here, I feel like it is a no brainer and will definitely be trying it for my next batch.