InBev Strikes Again

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NOOOO!!!! I just saw this and was about to post it. I guess we need to get used to it, Karbach has been a favorite since they started. I thought they might stay indie for a while since they've done so well on their own. I always wondered why they had such great distribution, then I read this and the owners were distributors before brewers, duh.
 
"existing management and brewers will remain in place and the company will retain much of its independence while also gaining access to the resources that will help it continue to grow."

Seems to me they still get to be Karbach. But with AbInbev resources and distribution. I fail to understand why this is bad.
 
EDF713 said:
NOOOO!!!! I just saw this and was about to post it. I guess we need to get used to it, Karbach has been a favorite since they started. I thought they might stay indie for a while since they've done so well on their own. I always wondered why they had such great distribution, then I read this and the owners were distributors before brewers, duh.
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Yeah... the owner said "The financial piece wasn't that important at the end of the day," Goodman said. "It was the resources."

But I don't believe it they were doing REALLY well with great distribution it was absolutely the money.
 
GilaMinumBeer said:
"existing management and brewers will remain in place and the company will retain much of its independence while also gaining access to the resources that will help it continue to grow."

Seems to me they still get to be Karbach. But with AbInbev resources and distribution. I fail to understand why this is bad.
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It's the same reason people are looking for alternatives to NorthernBrewer.com. I however don't like NorthernBrewer.com because their order processing and shipment timing sucks (at least in my experience) whereas I could care less who owns them.
 
TexasDroughtBrewery said:
Yeah... the owner said "The financial piece wasn't that important at the end of the day," Goodman said. "It was the resources."

But I don't believe it they were doing REALLY well with great distribution it was absolutely the money.
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I am more curious to know if this deal was struck before the antitrust regulations stipulated in the SAB deal or if this was approved by antitrust comission as required.
 
TexasDroughtBrewery said:
Yeah... the owner said "The financial piece wasn't that important at the end of the day," Goodman said. "It was the resources."

But I don't believe it they were doing REALLY well with great distribution it was absolutely the money.
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I guess they wanted to be bigger, and this is the easiest way to do it. They certainly do well with market share in the Houston area, and I've seen them around the state a bunch. Let's hope they can still be Karbach and not push others off the shelves.
 
I don't know much about the business, but this reeks to me of them having trouble making money and staying competitive. Sucks that they couldn't find a different investor to help them out.

"existing management and brewers will remain in place and the company will retain much of its independence", wonder how long that lasts. There are ways to make the new culture intolerable for certain people in management, and old positions can be cut entirely while new ones form just months later. The word "much" in that quote also leaves some wiggle room, AB InBev will issue a few suggestions in addition to the orders they send that way, and these people will want to please their new bosses.

Best of luck to the employees at Karbach.
 
Literally hundreds of other choices out there makes these buyouts moot. They would go bankrupt if they tried to buyout everybody.
 
What really sucks is what these craft breweries start doing once they've been purchased and start getting pressure to make and sell more beer.

Example: Saint Archer sells a majority share to Coors. This didn't surprise or bother me since they opened with a lot of production ability and were in stores before I knew I worked a mile from them..= However, since they were purchased they have expanded pushing out businesses in the building that were in their way. Most recently, my rock climbing gym announced, quite suddenly and after doing major renovations, that they were going to shut down in 6 weeks because Saint Archer was taking over their space, essentially pushing them out. Now I'm all for growth and I still had a beer at Saint Archer after climbing since they gave a 15% discount for gym member (good neighbor discount huh?) and produced some solid beers. But there are tons of options besides waving your giant commercial beer stick around for growth that don't require bullying thriving small businesses out of their homes.

I'll spare y'all my Ballast Point Rant (let's just say their spreading the infrastructure of the area quite thin)

When It's in your back yard I think it's easier to get a little pissed. I understand it's business but it doesn't mean it can't piss you off a little.
 
Pretty sure they aren't being pushed out. According to the County Treasurer your rock climbing gym owned the building outright. Chances are they were offered a fair payout.
 
Upthewazzu said:
80,000 barrels of beer in their 5th year of existence? That's insane.
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I've thought the same. They have good beer, but somehow they came on the scene and immediately you could find their beer everywhere in Houston. 5 years ago, St Arnolds was the only local craft you could find in grocery stores, then Karbach starts up and they were on the shelves everywhere. Now it's the go-to local for a lot of folks around here, and it's everywhere in Dallas, too. Besides being started by distributors, there had to be a significant investment. Without knowing the financials, I think it's safe to say it's paid off.
 
EDF713 said:
I've thought the same. They have good beer, but somehow they came on the scene and immediately you could find their beer everywhere in Houston. 5 years ago, St Arnolds was the only local craft you could find in grocery stores, then Karbach starts up and they were on the shelves everywhere. Now it's the go-to local for a lot of folks around here, and it's everywhere in Dallas, too. Besides being started by distributors, there had to be a significant investment. Without knowing the financials, I think it's safe to say it's paid off.
Click to expand...

Was surprised at how business minded one of our local breweries was in regards to it's startup. I thought it was a homebrewer who started the business. Instead it was local business men and women who liked beer and created a start up....conceived from the ground up with expansion as one of their goals.

I don't care. They make good beer.
 
jerbrew said:
What really sucks is what these craft breweries start doing once they've been purchased and start getting pressure to make and sell more beer.

Example: Saint Archer sells a majority share to Coors. This didn't surprise or bother me since they opened with a lot of production ability and were in stores before I knew I worked a mile from them..= However, since they were purchased they have expanded pushing out businesses in the building that were in their way. Most recently, my rock climbing gym announced, quite suddenly and after doing major renovations, that they were going to shut down in 6 weeks because Saint Archer was taking over their space, essentially pushing them out. Now I'm all for growth and I still had a beer at Saint Archer after climbing since they gave a 15% discount for gym member (good neighbor discount huh?) and produced some solid beers. But there are tons of options besides waving your giant commercial beer stick around for growth that don't require bullying thriving small businesses out of their homes.

I'll spare y'all my Ballast Point Rant (let's just say their spreading the infrastructure of the area quite thin)

When It's in your back yard I think it's easier to get a little pissed. I understand it's business but it doesn't mean it can't piss you off a little.
Click to expand...

I can't even begin to speculate about what tactics they used but, I can attest that it is way easier for a climbing gym to relocate than for a brewery. The current location is already zoned for the use, that is HUGE hurdle. These building are reviewed against code for he most restrictive use/occupancy. Chances are the current building has already passed code for fire area limitations, size, and construction type. That is another HUGE hurdle. And if that is in fact the case, then the permit for the brewery to expand into the rest of the building is little more than a formality of public record.
 
EDF713 said:
I've thought the same. They have good beer, but somehow they came on the scene and immediately you could find their beer everywhere in Houston. 5 years ago, St Arnolds was the only local craft you could find in grocery stores, then Karbach starts up and they were on the shelves everywhere. Now it's the go-to local for a lot of folks around here, and it's everywhere in Dallas, too. Besides being started by distributors, there had to be a significant investment. Without knowing the financials, I think it's safe to say it's paid off.
Click to expand...


Very true, sounds like they have a distribution advantage aside from being one of the only available options in the area. But 80k is massive, and they have plans for 150k. They obviously built incredible levels of growth into their business model.
 
GilaMinumBeer said:
I can't even begin to speculate about what tactics they used but, I can attest that it is way easier for a climbing gym to relocate than for a brewery. The current location is already zoned for the use, that is HUGE hurdle. These building are reviewed against code for he most restrictive use/occupancy. Chances are the current building has already passed code for fire area limitations, size, and construction type. That is another HUGE hurdle. And if that is in fact the case, then the permit for the brewery to expand into the rest of the building is little more than a formality of public record.
Click to expand...

True. And I get it. But the truth remains that Saint Archer has a really big facility for how young they are. And there really isn't a need besides profit to expand and distribute more. They have a ton of 300 gallon fermenters and being owned by coors their beer can be brewed and distributed anywhere you find coors. They are expanding in order to store their barrels and i'm guessing brewing supplies. San Diego has some really friendly brewing laws i'm guessing since there are 100+ breweries and brewing tasting rooms in the county. Especially in the area of saint archer (14 I can think of within a mile or two). It's an industrial park that's apparently zoned for it. A climbing gym (that's been there longer) also can't be an easy thing to move. You have to build it out and get all the insurance thumbs up. Make sure you're in an area that services your clientele still and do that while not making any money on membership with about 2 months notice.

Again, I get it and they have to do for them what's best. But my point still stands. I don't like what seems to happen as a result of corporate investment. But what can I do but complain right? :tank:
 
I am disgusted by this news, I love me some Karbach. It isn't a team up like they are spinning it; it is a straight up acquisition.
They are already all over town, if they wanted wider distribution why wouldn't they have teamed up with silver eagle?
Shiner can be found in almost every state, there is no need to sell out for distribution.
I am sure the owners are happy counting their money; after AB strips the "craft" out of their brewery and puts a halt to innovation, Karbach will be nothing more than a meaningless label.
 
I think consolidation in the macro market segment is the direct result of negative growth.
And acquisitions by the mega macros outside of their traditional core business is another sign of the same basic problem.

One could claim "saturation", but it's specific to the segment...

Cheers!
 
WrQth said:
Does their beer taste different when they get a new owner?
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Yes, with the new owner comes change. AB bought Four Peaks here in Phoenix. I can only speculate as to why, but Kiltlifter is not the same beer it once was (worse). Neither is Hop Knot. Although I think Hop Knot is better now. I definitely call shenanigans on AB. I think they have an ace up their sleeve and these buy outs are part of a greater plan that will not be good for craft beer.
 
jerbrew said:
True. And I get it. But the truth remains that Saint Archer has a really big facility for how young they are. And there really isn't a need besides profit to expand and distribute more. They have a ton of 300 gallon fermenters and being owned by coors their beer can be brewed and distributed anywhere you find coors. They are expanding in order to store their barrels and i'm guessing brewing supplies. San Diego has some really friendly brewing laws i'm guessing since there are 100+ breweries and brewing tasting rooms in the county. Especially in the area of saint archer (14 I can think of within a mile or two). It's an industrial park that's apparently zoned for it. A climbing gym (that's been there longer) also can't be an easy thing to move. You have to build it out and get all the insurance thumbs up. Make sure you're in an area that services your clientele still and do that while not making any money on membership with about 2 months notice.

Again, I get it and they have to do for them what's best. But my point still stands. I don't like what seems to happen as a result of corporate investment. But what can I do but complain right? :tank:
Click to expand...

Looks like from their facebook post it was the right decision for them to take the offer. Either they were offered enough that they think they can setup a better shop somewhere else or the offer was worth more than what the current business can generate.

Good for them either way.
 
EDF713 said:
I've thought the same. They have good beer, but somehow they came on the scene and immediately you could find their beer everywhere in Houston. 5 years ago, St Arnolds was the only local craft you could find in grocery stores, then Karbach starts up and they were on the shelves everywhere. Now it's the go-to local for a lot of folks around here, and it's everywhere in Dallas, too. Besides being started by distributors, there had to be a significant investment. Without knowing the financials, I think it's safe to say it's paid off.
Click to expand...

The figure I heard is that they had and/or raise 20 million to start karbach.
 
I love all the conspiracy theories about AB. Could it be that they are just a company that wants to make money for their shareholders? For decades the beer consuming public has demanded light, generally bland and easy drinking beer so companies like Bud provided it. Bud made money so AB bought them to collect the profit. The beer landscape is changing and a growing segment of beer consumers want a different style of beer. AB wants to keep getting money from as many beer drinkers as possible so they can continue to grow, thus they they have two choices; they can create these beers or they can buy companies who already have and already have name recognition amongst this subset of beer drinkers. They are smart enough to realize that these beer drinkers want “craft” and “local” and getting people to try new styles form bud will be a losing battle, though I’m sure their brewers are smart enough to make a pretty awesome Bud Amber, Bud IPA, Bud Stout, Bud Saison, etc. AB doesn’t want to eliminate all flavorful beer and force everyone to drink Bud, they just want everyone to drink beer they brewed, they don’t care what style it is. Unfortunately AB is seems to buying these companies at above what most would consider a reasonable market value, they are doing this based on speculation that they can improve margins and increase distribution. Increasing margin with economies of scale is fine, increasing margins by using inferior ingredients (i.e. rice, cheaper hops, etc) will suck the soul of out that particular brewery.
 
jensek said:
Looks like from their facebook post it was the right decision for them to take the offer. Either they were offered enough that they think they can setup a better shop somewhere else or the offer was worth more than what the current business can generate.

Good for them either way.
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From Their Facebook page:

"Friends and Members,
As you may have heard, after 22 years of serving the climbing community, Vertical Hold is closing its doors for business on DECEMBER 9th, 2016.
In brief, we are a successful business without a location. We arrived in this position much more rapidly than anyone could have anticipated. We are highly optimistic that we can continue Vertical Hold in a new space, and are working very hard to realize this hope. Without any concrete present plan, it would be irresponsible to make promises or suggest in what form our future business could continue.We are optimistically directing our resources towards this hope.
It has become even more apparent, with the news of our closure, what an incredible and supportive community we are comprised of. Even more than creating a new and awesome climbing facility, continuing this incredible collection of climbers is our real goal.
Thanks so much for the continued enthusiasm and support. We will be updating you throughout this process of closing our beloved space, as well as our plans for the future. For direct news and official updates sign up for our newsletter at www.verticalhold.com.
Vertical Hold is home to us all, and your staff is here to answer any concerns or questions you may have throughout this closure. Please email us at [email protected], or stop by the front desk as we'd love to see you.
With that said, we hope you'll join us in these last days at the gym, and celebrate 22 years of climbing, community, and cause. Please stay tuned for our upcoming events throughout the next few weeks, including our Fall Bouldering League, Veterans Day Climbing, White Monday, and Farewell Party."

nothing about that says it was a good deal for them nor was there an offer. They were either pushed out of their lease or Saint Archer bought the building and kicked em out. Either way its quite sudden for a thriving business to go out of business.

I've talked to the employees and the tag line "we're a successful business without a home" is all they're saying because there is no plan. They've been in San Diego for 22 years and that location specifically for 8. I can't say its not going to work out for them. I just hate that it's for this purpose and happened so suddenly. There are plenty of rock climbing alternatives but that's not the point. Even if it's good for the owner there are tons of people affected by it. Patrons, employees, and kids in their youth league. This kind of things happens to these businesses all the time but it doesn't mean I can't be annoyed and that it was a good deal for them.
 
jerbrew said:
From Their Facebook page:

"Friends and Members,
As you may have heard, after 22 years of serving the climbing community, Vertical Hold is closing its doors for business on DECEMBER 9th, 2016.
In brief, we are a successful business without a location. We arrived in this position much more rapidly than anyone could have anticipated. We are highly optimistic that we can continue Vertical Hold in a new space, and are working very hard to realize this hope. Without any concrete present plan, it would be irresponsible to make promises or suggest in what form our future business could continue.We are optimistically directing our resources towards this hope.
It has become even more apparent, with the news of our closure, what an incredible and supportive community we are comprised of. Even more than creating a new and awesome climbing facility, continuing this incredible collection of climbers is our real goal.
Thanks so much for the continued enthusiasm and support. We will be updating you throughout this process of closing our beloved space, as well as our plans for the future. For direct news and official updates sign up for our newsletter at www.verticalhold.com.
Vertical Hold is home to us all, and your staff is here to answer any concerns or questions you may have throughout this closure. Please email us at [email protected], or stop by the front desk as we'd love to see you.
With that said, we hope you'll join us in these last days at the gym, and celebrate 22 years of climbing, community, and cause. Please stay tuned for our upcoming events throughout the next few weeks, including our Fall Bouldering League, Veterans Day Climbing, White Monday, and Farewell Party."

nothing about that says it was a good deal for them nor was there an offer. They were either pushed out of their lease or Saint Archer bought the building and kicked em out. Either way its quite sudden for a thriving business to go out of business.

I've talked to the employees and the tag line "we're a successful business without a home" is all they're saying because there is no plan. They've been in San Diego for 22 years and that location specifically for 8. I can't say its not going to work out for them. I just hate that it's for this purpose and happened so suddenly. There are plenty of rock climbing alternatives but that's not the point. Even if it's good for the owner there are tons of people affected by it. Patrons, employees, and kids in their youth league. This kind of things happens to these businesses all the time but it doesn't mean I can't be annoyed and that it was a good deal for them.
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According to the county tax auditor Vertical Hold owned the property outright. So they weren't kicked out. Just saying.
 
I cannot blame any small business owner from selling out to any large business, heck, that's a pure dream for any startup! If I started a business and some Chinese firm offered me a boatload of money to sell out to them, the only issue would be finding a pen immediately to sign on the dotted line! Who cares, it's why you started a business in the first place!

It doesn't mean I would do business with the final result, but that's a personal decision and everybody has to make their own decisions about where they will spend their money.
 
I totally understand a small business selling out to a larger business. Absolutely. However personally I feel that in the industry we are in, craft brewing and home brewing, that companies like InBev, Budweiser what have you, are in fact the enemy.to us. It is well documented to InBev does and will continue to use their enormous size, wealth and power to buy out and crush any and all competition. That is what I see happening. Just my opinion. So when I see Northern Brewer and any others selling to InBev it seriously concerns me. Again I want to emphasize that InBev has the right to do what they are doing and so does anyone else involved with them.

But I personally love the idea of having complete flexibility to make whatever I want and having many choices to get what I need at my disposal who truly understand our needs and also live within our community. I don't want to see the "corporates" coming in and taking over our industry. In the end it only puts more money, control and power to the companies we so desperately try to avoid. If in fact InBev is buying everyone out to help our industry then so be it. I personally do not believe they have that interest in mind. Maybe they do. Only time will tell.

In the mean time one of the things we can do is to communicate our thoughts to the good companies we all choose to work with for our supplies and let them know what we are thinking and what we want to see happen moving forward. In the end I know that business is business and money rules everything. All I ask is for those companies remaining that get approached by corporate beer companies like InBev to make sure they think it through and keep our industry in mind if and when those decisions need to be made. Thoughts are free. Let your vendors know what you are thinking, Just my personal stupid humble opinion.
 
jensek said:
According to the county tax auditor Vertical Hold owned the property outright. So they weren't kicked out. Just saying.
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Yea I guess they do. I also guess it's ok to just s*** on your staff when given a bit of money. Thanks I'll pass my aggression and annoyance a bit onto them.
 
jerbrew said:
Yea I guess they do. I also guess it's ok to just s*** on your staff when given a bit of money. Thanks I'll pass my aggression and annoyance a bit onto them.
Click to expand...

I love it. The business owner holds all the risk.

When times are tough and he has to eat the loss, struggle to pay the bills and let a few people go, he is the a**hole.

When times are good and he has an opportunity to sell the building and probably make a substantial profit. He's the a**hole.

And how do you know he is going to s*** on his staff. He's given them and the customers almost two months notice. Do you know if he is giving them any severance?

You don't even know if they might find a new space and simply re-open in a new location. You just immediately jump to the conclusion that the owner is being an a**hole.
 
dallasdb said:
I love it. The business owner holds all the risk.

When times are tough and he has to eat the loss, struggle to pay the bills and let a few people go, he is the a**hole.

When times are good and he has an opportunity to sell the building and probably make a substantial profit. He's the a**hole.

And how do you know he is going to s*** on his staff. He's given them and the customers almost two months notice. Do you know if he is giving them any severance?

You don't even know if they might find a new space and simply re-open in a new location. You just immediately jump to the conclusion that the owner is being an a**hole.
Click to expand...

Right. That was wrong of me to say. I don't know the guy or the situation. But talking to the employees that have been there a long time making it a successful business don't seem too thrilled about having to look for another job. Maybe even feeling a bit abandoned. I'm not trying to convince you all. You obviously have a different view on the roles and responsibilities of a small business owner and the corporatization of the U.S.

When people have to let employees go because of a failing business I understand but to dissolve your business indefinitely for a company that produces an at best decent product and will employ 1/10 of the people your letting go to run that space then I have a problem. But hey i don't make decisions for these people.

Too many people refer to it as "just business" and "it's not personal" but business affects people and makes it personal. I'm a pretty socially minded idealist (probably not a popular view 'round these parts) yet I understand the drive for this whole thing to happen. I've said this several times but it doesn't mean I have to agree.
 

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