In need of newbie advice

[Jako]

i plan on moving from extract to BIAB. now my problem i have a brewers best 8g kettle but i want to brew a 5 gallon batch. i would like the ability to make 7-10% brews.

could i do a partial volume mash? then sparge/squeeze the rest to my pre boil volume?

i just started reading about BIAB so sorry if this has been covered 100 times.

could someone point me to a tread/video showing how to sparge with a BIAB set up? also looking for some recipes for 5G batches.

 

[ong]

You could probably do something along those lines. Maybe pull the bag out, transfer it to another stock pot or bucket, and sparge there. Another good option for those bigger beers would be to add some LME to get to your desired pre-boil OH.

8 gallons is about my pre-boil volume, so it's going to be tight regardless. Ultimately you might want a bigger kettle, especially if most of your beers are in that range. It's pretty tight doing a 10% 5 gallon beer in my 10.5 gallon kettle.

 

[Jako]

good to know. i just started brewing and thought this kettle was large enough. i don't plan to have every beer be a big beer. i just would like the ability to do so. the idea of adding DME or LME to get a few extra points is not that bad of an idea.

thinking of buying my stuff at the LHBS this weekend. i also find out the results from the brew off comp. i entered my first beer just to get some feed back.

 

[wilserbrewer]

8 gallons is a little small, but with a sparge in another vessel or bucket you should be able to brew any high gravity 5 gal batch.

Of course efficiency decreases as gravity increases just like our tax system.

 

[Jako]

8 gallons is a little small, but with a sparge in another vessel or bucket you should be able to brew any high gravity 5 gal batch.

Of course efficiency decreases as gravity increases just like our tax system.

I knew it would be pushing the limits of my current gear but my wife would have my head if I said my new brewing equipment is useless.

I was looking at the bags you make. Should I buy a bigger bag so I have room to grow or do you make a bag around the size I would need?

 

[wilserbrewer]

I was looking at the bags you make. Should I buy a bigger bag so I have room to grow or do you make a bag around the size I would need?

I would learn to use the 8 gallon kettle. While larger pots have some advantages, so do smaller pots. Easier to handle and clean, and also hold heat better during the mash due to less headspace.

Bags are sized to the kettle, I would get a bag to fit the pot for the most convenient use....while an oversized bag will work, it could make for a hassle and a mess.

If you upgrade the pot, I'll give you a nice rate on another bag to fit it.

 

[Tarpon87]

Yes you can do a partial volume mash and then sparge, but like others have said, you will probably need between 7-8 gal preboil volume to end up with around 5.5 gal into your fermenter, it will be tight but doable if you are good with heat management to avoid a boil over. Why not scale down to 3 gal batches until you can get a larger kettle? It will give you an excuse to brew more often.
FWIW I did a TenFidy clone a few months back, 5 gal batch, I used 25lb 6oz of grain (which my wilser bag handled easily) and just shy of 10gal of strike water, 90min mash 75 min boil, ended up at 9.3% abv. lost about 15% efficiency going that big, but the beer is fantastic

 

[Morrey]

i would like the ability to make 7-10% brews.

Ultimately you might want a bigger kettle, especially if most of your beers are in that range. It's pretty tight doing a 10% 5 gallon beer in my 10.5 gallon kettle.

Lots of ways to skin the cat here, and I have tried lots of ways to get good results from improvised situations. When starting with extract as I did, we tend to think of what works for that particular application not realizing what the future may hold. I am saying this from a voice of experience particularly looking at kettle size.

For my BEST 5G results, I like to do full volume BIAB mashes with around 7.5G of strike water. If you do a big beer and use maybe 15# or more of grains, it will take a good sized kettle to hold all of this. If you happen to head toward a new kettle, think about the future and where you may be several months down the road. If I had a crystal ball, I'd have bought a 15G kettle (probably not the 10G I have) to give me some room for situations like this for a big beer at 5.5G batches. I add that not every beer I make is a big beer, in fact, most are 1.050 standard gravity brews. Still, the 10G pot is a bit snug.

 

[Morrey]

good to know. i just started brewing and thought this kettle was large enough. i don't plan to have every beer be a big beer. i just would like the ability to do so. the idea of adding DME or LME to get a few extra points is not that bad of an idea.

thinking of buying my stuff at the LHBS this weekend. i also find out the results from the brew off comp. i entered my first beer just to get some feed back.

Did the comp you entered have a designation for extract beers, or were you put in amongst the "general population"?

 

[Jako]

Did the comp you entered have a designation for extract beers, or were you put in amongst the "general population"?

i am almost sure it was just general population. i think it was grouped by beer style. i don't expect to do well because each beer is extremely different in carb levels.

 

[Jako]

I would learn to use the 8 gallon kettle. While larger pots have some advantages, so do smaller pots. Easier to handle and clean, and also hold heat better during the mash due to less headspace.

Bags are sized to the kettle, I would get a bag to fit the pot for the most convenient use....while an oversized bag will work, it could make for a hassle and a mess.

If you upgrade the pot, I'll give you a nice rate on another bag to fit it.

this gives me hope! i think the best idea at this point is start with a smaller beer and learn how to BIAB first then work my way up a bigger beer.

 

[Jako]

Yes you can do a partial volume mash and then sparge, but like others have said, you will probably need between 7-8 gal preboil volume to end up with around 5.5 gal into your fermenter, it will be tight but doable if you are good with heat management to avoid a boil over. Why not scale down to 3 gal batches until you can get a larger kettle? It will give you an excuse to brew more often.
FWIW I did a TenFidy clone a few months back, 5 gal batch, I used 25lb 6oz of grain (which my wilser bag handled easily) and just shy of 10gal of strike water, 90min mash 75 min boil, ended up at 9.3% abv. lost about 15% efficiency going that big, but the beer is fantastic

3 gal batches is not a bad idea. this crossed my mind while i was looking at the northern brewer kits. i would need to invest in a second fermenter would my 5 gal buckets work or is that too much head space.

 

[Jako]

i would like to say this forum is great and thank you for all of the advice and help.

 

[GilSwillBasementBrews]

3 gal batches is not a bad idea. this crossed my mind while i was looking at the northern brewer kits. i would need to invest in a second fermenter would my 5 gal buckets work or is that too much head space.

The 5 gallon buckets will be fine for your primary fermentation. If you're going to be aging or storing the beer for long term in the fermenter you will want one with less head space to avoid oxidation if the beer. If just fermenting and bottling/kegging your 5 gallon will work fine.

 

[madscientist451]

Your 8 gallon pot is fine, just go to Walmart, get a $20, 5 gallon round cooler, add a spigot and put your BIAB bag in there. It's cheap and easy.

 

[jamorgan3777]

Or, as an alternative, you could size the batch based on your gravity. That is, a high gravity beer may be fine in your pot at 4 gallons instead of 5. No magic in the 5 gallon batch and in my experience, 3 and 4 gallon batches taste every bit as good as 5 or 10 gallon.

 

[cmac62]

I believe I was lucky when I started brewing because my LHBS gave me free brewing lessons (go figure) and started me with all grain from the beginning. I know it is more equipment, but getting a 10 gal igloo for a MT is easy and fairly cheep. You just need to upgrade the spigot and add a mesh screen. The 5 gal won't be big enough. My biggest beer I have brewed with my Igloo MT was an English Style BW, with 26 LB of grain for a 5 gal batch (took second in a local comp ). I have several bottles left and plan on entering it into a few more after a year or so in the bottle just to see what the difference is.

BTW I would also look for a keggle for your brew pot. You will always have a use for your 8 gal, but eventually you will want to brew 10 gal batches, trust me.

Brew on

 

[doug293cz]

I believe I was lucky when I started brewing because my LHBS gave me free brewing lessons (go figure) and started me with all grain from the beginning. I know it is more equipment, but getting a 10 gal igloo for a MT is easy and fairly cheep. You just need to upgrade the spigot and add a mesh screen. The 5 gal won't be big enough. My biggest beer I have brewed with my Igloo MT was an English Style BW, with 26 LB of grain for a 5 gal batch (took second in a local comp ). I have several bottles left and plan on entering it into a few more after a year or so in the bottle just to see what the difference is.

BTW I would also look for a keggle for your brew pot. You will always have a use for your 8 gal, but eventually you will want to brew 10 gal batches, trust me.

Brew on

I wouldn't recommend a keggle if you plan to stay with BIAB. The lip on the top complicates avoiding spilling when pulling the bag. If you go with a separate MLT, then a keggle is fine as a BK.

Brew on

 

[Jako]

Or, as an alternative, you could size the batch based on your gravity. That is, a high gravity beer may be fine in your pot at 4 gallons instead of 5. No magic in the 5 gallon batch and in my experience, 3 and 4 gallon batches taste every bit as good as 5 or 10 gallon.

yeah that is a good alternative. as for upgrading my gear or moving to something larger i would first want to get the hang of BIAB or decide if i want to move to a full all grain system.

what is a good simple style to start with? thanks again to everyone for all the input.

 

[ong]

what is a good simple style to start with? thanks again to everyone for all the input.

Others may disagree, but I think brown ale is the most tolerant of errors, followed by stouts and porters. Even if your water chemistry or fermentation temperature are off, or you miss your gravity target, these darker beers cover up most of those problems.

I would have some DME on hand in case you miss your gravity by a mile, though. And remember to get a fine crush on your grains (double milling is one option).

 

[Jako]

Others may disagree, but I think brown ale is the most tolerant of errors, followed by stouts and porters. Even if your water chemistry or fermentation temperature are off, or you miss your gravity target, these darker beers cover up most of those problems.

I would have some DME on hand in case you miss your gravity by a mile, though. And remember to get a fine crush on your grains (double milling is one option).

i just made a brown ale so i might go with a porter that route. thanks for the tips. having DME at the ready is a good idea. should i have exta hops on hand to balance out the extra DME if needed?

 

[cloudybrewer]

Full disclosure - I'm saying this more as a question than an answer, because I'd like to know and it will help the OP.

I've skimmed the thread, and I don't think anyone has mentioned this, and maybe I'll get skewered for bringing it up, since it's not "the correct way," BUT .... It's not illegal to use top-up water with all grain just like you can with extract brewing. Do a more traditional mash at 1.5 qts per pound, sparge until you are to a "safe from boilover" volume in the kettle, and top up if required after the boil to achieve the recipe volume.

Advantages: you can still make 5 gal batches which fit your cold-side equipment without buying a new pot,
faster boiling ( probably negligible),
a smaller volume of wort cools more quickly,
if the top up water is fridge temp it really helps lower the wort those last few degrees to pitching temp after the bulk of the cooling is done

Disadvantages: hop utilization decreases in a more concentrated wort ( I think),
Maybe scorching becomes a possibility towards the end of the boil when the volume is the lowest
Efficiency decreases with a less sparging - although no sparge BIAB is widely recognized
???

What's the jury's verdict on this? Am I wrong?

 

[doug293cz]

Yes, you can add top up water, and you will lose efficiency, specifically lauter efficiency, as a result. You may also lose some additional brewhouse efficiency if you leave some wort in the BK and top up in the fermenter, since you will be leaving more concentrated wort in the BK. The loss in lauter efficiency can be calculated, since it turns out lauter efficiency for a fixed grain absorption and number of sparges is simply a function of the ratio of grain weight to pre-boil volume. The chart below shows how lauter efficiency varies with the grain to pre-boil volume ratio.



Say you were making a 5 gal batch with a 10 lb grain bill. If you had a kettle large enough for a full volume boil, you might target a pre-boil volume of 6.5 gal. Then your grain to volume ratio would be 1.54. Let's assume you are sparging, since for the comparison case of a partial volume boil, a sparge will be a necessity. And also lets assume that you squeeze the bag, before and after sparge, to get a grain absorption of 0 08 gal/lb. In this case your lauter efficiency will be about 91% and your mash efficiency will be less than that since mash efficiency equals conversion efficiency times lauter efficiency, and conversion efficiency cannot be more than 100%. Now if you want to do a partial boil with a 4.5 gal pre-boil volume for the same grain bill, your grain to volume ratio will be 2.22, and the corresponding lauter efficiency is 86%. So, doing the partial boil is going to cost you at least 5 percentage points on mash efficiency.

This is workable if it's your only option, but you need to understand the trade-offs you are making, and adjust for them.

On the other hand if you would be doing no-sparge if you had a larger pot, then the partial boil with sparging would give about a 3 percentage point efficiency gain over the no-spage full boil option.

Brew on

 

[wilserbrewer]

Full disclosure - I'm saying this more as a question than an answer, because I'd like to know and it will help the OP.

I've skimmed the thread, and I don't think anyone has mentioned this, and maybe I'll get skewered for bringing it up, since it's not "the correct way," BUT .... It's not illegal to use top-up water with all grain just like you can with extract brewing. Do a more traditional mash at 1.5 qts per pound, sparge until you are to a "safe from boilover" volume in the kettle, and top up if required after the boil to achieve the recipe volume.

Advantages: you can still make 5 gal batches which fit your cold-side equipment without buying a new pot,
faster boiling ( probably negligible),
a smaller volume of wort cools more quickly,
if the top up water is fridge temp it really helps lower the wort those last few degrees to pitching temp after the bulk of the cooling is done

Disadvantages: hop utilization decreases in a more concentrated wort ( I think),
Maybe scorching becomes a possibility towards the end of the boil when the volume is the lowest
Efficiency decreases with a less sparging - although no sparge BIAB is widely recognized
???

What's the jury's verdict on this? Am I wrong?

Nothing wrong with using top of water judiciously.

Rather than topping off blindly to a specific volume, I would suggest topping off to, or close to the recipe gravity. You may be a little short on volume, but only getting 4 1/2 gallons rather than 5 is not a deal breaker.

 

[frozyn]

Full disclosure - I'm saying this more as a question than an answer, because I'd like to know and it will help the OP.

I've skimmed the thread, and I don't think anyone has mentioned this, and maybe I'll get skewered for bringing it up, since it's not "the correct way," BUT .... It's not illegal to use top-up water with all grain just like you can with extract brewing. Do a more traditional mash at 1.5 qts per pound, sparge until you are to a "safe from boilover" volume in the kettle, and top up if required after the boil to achieve the recipe volume.

Advantages: you can still make 5 gal batches which fit your cold-side equipment without buying a new pot,
faster boiling ( probably negligible),
a smaller volume of wort cools more quickly,
if the top up water is fridge temp it really helps lower the wort those last few degrees to pitching temp after the bulk of the cooling is done

Disadvantages: hop utilization decreases in a more concentrated wort ( I think),
Maybe scorching becomes a possibility towards the end of the boil when the volume is the lowest
Efficiency decreases with a less sparging - although no sparge BIAB is widely recognized
???

What's the jury's verdict on this? Am I wrong?

If you use Beersmith, there is a Dilution tool that you can use to calculate topping off. It will help you figure out the amount of volume needed to dilute your wort to reach a certain SG. For example, if you have 3 gallons of 1.080 water, and dilute it with 2 gallons of water, you will get 5 gallons of 1.048 wort. You can tweak the settings however you want to reach what you need.

 

[Jako]

the last few post were extremely helpful.

can someone explain this to me. in my head if you add water are you taking away from the flavor? or is it all about hitting the SG? how much is too much when you dilute?

 

[Jako]

Did the comp you entered have a designation for extract beers, or were you put in amongst the "general population"?

update on the comp. my beer received a score of 24 on the lower end of "good" that's a win for my for my first beer... to me.

i was up with all the "American beers" the guy who took best in show was in the same bracket as me. he also took second place in the same bracket! looks like most of the guys who won are part of clubs. and lots of repeat winners. to me its lame but hey if i made a good beers and was told only one could win i would be angry.

 

[Lefou]

I am using two boil kettles.
Depending on the style, I can utilize both in different ways. Mash tun, hot liquor, or a decoction. It makes lautering easy.

One is a 7.5gal kettle, the other a simple 5gal single-walled stainless stockpot you'd find in a kit. For a 5gal batch, I usually resort to thicker mash, do a 4 gallon boil, calculate the boil-off and hopping rate, then top off for the 5 gallon wort. I do most of my business in a small kitchen on the stovetop, so space and equipment has to be conservative.

 

[Lefou]

the last few post were extremely helpful.

can someone explain this to me. in my head if you add water are you taking away from the flavor? or is it all about hitting the SG? how much is too much when you dilute?

All your wort flavor and potential ABV is still there, it just gets diluted. Pay attention to your boil-off rate because a major concern is with the boil time and hop utilization. I tend to use Brewer's Friend when doing my recipe calculations and one of the best bits of info is the pre-boil gravity nd BU/GU numbers.
Pre-boil gravity is important because it's a big indicator of your mash efficiency before going into the kettle. Hitting your minimum is the best feeling and is a good sign your method is successful.

 

[Morrey]

update on the comp. my beer received a score of 24 on the lower end of "good" that's a win for my for my first beer... to me.

i was up with all the "American beers" the guy who took best in show was in the same bracket as me. he also took second place in the same bracket! looks like most of the guys who won are part of clubs. and lots of repeat winners. to me its lame but hey if i made a good beers and was told only one could win i would be angry.

Great showing! A definite confidence booster so keep up the good work!!

 

[Jako]

Great showing! A definite confidence booster so keep up the good work!!

Thanks! I have to say it's awesome to know what we're I am at starting and next year I want to bring my best and hopefully improve. I would suggest anyone who has the ability to enter a beer to be judged do so it was a great experience. One regret I didn't go to the judging. So I missed out talking to the local clubs and meeting others who love the hobby.

 

[z-bob]

I have an 8 gallon kettle too. I usually do 4 gallon BIAB brews. Sometimes I'll do a 5 gallon, and for that I sparge in a plastic bucket. But 4 gallons is a good size, and I have a bunch of 4 gallon light-weight plastic carboys.

 

[Morrey]

Thanks! I have to say it's awesome to know what we're I am at starting and next year I want to bring my best and hopefully improve. I would suggest anyone who has the ability to enter a beer to be judged do so it was a great experience. One regret I didn't go to the judging. So I missed out talking to the local clubs and meeting others who love the hobby.

Now that you have a baseline or reference point, you'll be able to see what kinds of differences changes make as you hope to get better with every brew. My suggestion is to make one change at a time so you'll realize the impact that change makes. If you make multiple changes every brew, it's hard to isolate which change did what to the beer.

Glad you are enjoying brewing and having a great time!

 

[Jako]

just did my first BIAB Saturday. did it go exactly to plan... no haha, did i have a good idea of what i needed to do yes. first problem i had way to much water in. i had about a 14.5 pound grain bill and my 7 gallons of water was too much. needed about 6.45 gal or so. second problem... i over calculated my boil off and ended up with half a gallon more then i needed! but the OG was good enough for me. pre boil i was looking at 1.043 and ended up with 1.053 not bad its in target for the recipe. it also took me forever to cool the wart down or it felt that way because it ended up getting super late on me, 3am sorta late. oh yea my sparge went well i think to much water in the end.

 

[RM-MN]

just did my first BIAB Saturday. did it go exactly to plan... no haha, did i have a good idea of what i needed to do yes. first problem i had way to much water in. i had about a 14.5 pound grain bill and my 7 gallons of water was too much. needed about 6.45 gal or so. second problem... i over calculated my boil off and ended up with half a gallon more then i needed! but the OG was good enough for me. pre boil i was looking at 1.043 and ended up with 1.053 not bad its in target for the recipe. it also took me forever to cool the wart down or it felt that way because it ended up getting super late on me, 3am sorta late. oh yea my sparge went well i think to much water in the end.

Oh darn, half a gallon of extra beer. What ever will you do with it?

 

[Jako]

i have no idea...

on another note i used falconers flight 7 c's for my 60min addition excited to try it out. i also did a splash of centennial and cascade at 5 mim then the rest at knockout it smells amazing in the air lock. fresh orange smell with some floral notes, a hint of something sweet. i cant wait to try this. but trying to give this batch its time to get happy and not rush it.

 

[Morrey]

i have no idea...

on another note i used falconers flight 7 c's for my 60min addition excited to try it out. i also did a splash of centennial and cascade at 5 mim then the rest at knockout it smells amazing in the air lock. fresh orange smell with some floral notes, a hint of something sweet. i cant wait to try this. but trying to give this batch its time to get happy and not rush it.

Patience, Patience.....the hard part for sure! The reward for your patience is good beer.

If you have an extra fermenter (bucket or whatever you use), this is a great time to start another beer. Will help keep your mind off the current beer plus it helps start building a pipeline.

 

[Jako]

Patience, Patience.....the hard part for sure! The reward for your patience is good beer.

If you have an extra fermenter (bucket or whatever you use), this is a great time to start another beer. Will help keep your mind off the current beer plus it helps start building a pipeline.

No need to keep busy with something else. This is start of day 4 after pitching my yeast yesterday I noticed it was super super active. This morning bang! My lid blew off. I fixed the air lock an hour later she was ready to blow again. I rigged up a blow off with my racking hose and the air lock. So far it's working but it's churning away then a huge off gas gnarly.

Super lucky I took today off or I would have a huge mess. Current temperature is 68. Started at 64 and letting it work itself up