Import water shortage

[jimvision]

With all that is currently going on, I’m having a little trouble solving my water problem. I normally import spring water from the grocery store. Stores are out when I stop by and also have 2 or 3G limits. My water has too much iron. My home brew buddy’s municipal supply is not to my liking. My country buddies have softners on their well waters. Not sure if local roadside spring is suitable.
What am i not thinking of?
Anyone else having this trouble?
My closet will be at ferment temp soon and I wish to get my biab on.
Please advise.
Jim

 

[RPh_Guy]

A local Walmart with a RO purified water dispenser?

Welcome to HBT

 

[jimvision]

Thanks, I’ll take a look at Walmart and see if they allow refillable containers. Think I’ve been in Walmart twice in the past 10 years lol. Local breweries around here are not filling existing growlers, only new. A small lhbs has discontinued their fill your water jug for cheap.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Other stores may have RO water dispensers too; it doesn't have to be Walmart.

For more investment you could install your own RO system.

 

[Broothru]

Other stores may have RO water dispensers too; it doesn't have to be Walmart.

For more investment you could install your own RO system.

Related question. We used to run a portable RO unit in our RV while traveling for cooking and coffee water, rather than depending on campground and municipal water supplies. It ended up taking too much time away from other activities so we just started buying gallon jugs at grocery stores when RVing.

I used it for collecting brew water for a while but succumbed to the time/water rejection rate factors there as well. I doubt I ran more than 200~300 gallons through the system in total so the filters and membrane should be good, but it hasn't been used in 4 or 5 years. Would it be safe to use it now? Could I run an Iodofor solution through it to disinfect and sanitize the unit, or would it not pass through the membrane?

My home water (well) is 'Ok' and the Ward Labs report gives me a baseline for treatment, but I've got three lagers in the que for brewing and I really want distilled or RO water to brew with. Don't want to risk going out to forage for limited supplies.

Brooo Brother

 

[Jayjay1976]

Related question. We used to run a portable RO unit in our RV while traveling for cooking and coffee water, rather than depending on campground and municipal water supplies. It ended up taking too much time away from other activities so we just started buying gallon jugs at grocery stores when RVing.

I used it for collecting brew water for a while but succumbed to the time/water rejection rate factors there as well. I doubt I ran more than 200~300 gallons through the system in total so the filters and membrane should be good, but it hasn't been used in 4 or 5 years. Would it be safe to use it now? Could I run an Iodofor solution through it to disinfect and sanitize the unit, or would it not pass through the membrane?

My home water (well) is 'Ok' and the Ward Labs report gives me a baseline for treatment, but I've got three lagers in the que for brewing and I really want distilled or RO water to brew with. Don't want to risk going out to forage for limited supplies.

Brooo Brother

You can sanitize the system with a mild bleach solution but you MUST remove the RO membrane first or the chlorine will destroy it. You might get by with iodofor, no idea what effect it might have on the membrane. If you have a TDS meter you can confirm that it is still performing and if the water tastes good you're good to go. Amazon has filter packs that include a membrane, they are pretty inexpensive and your old filter will work like new.

Also, if you need more water faster or can't justify the wasted water, look into adding a permeate pump to speed things up and decrease rejection.

 

[Broothru]

You can sanitize the system with a mild bleach solution but you MUST remove the RO membrane first or the chlorine will destroy it. You might get by with iodofor, no idea what effect it might have on the membrane. If you have a TDS meter you can confirm that it is still performing and if the water tastes good you're good to go. Amazon has filter packs that include a membrane, they are pretty inexpensive and your old filter will work like new.

Also, if you need more water faster or can't justify the wasted water, look into adding a permeate pump to speed things up and decrease rejection.

My major concern is the membrane of course, the most expensive component. I know I purchased extra pre-filters and post-membrane polishing filters, and I THINK an extra membrane as well. Just don't remember where I put them!

I know they haven't exceeded their capacity to filter (or allow osmotic pressure to restrict large molecules and TDS from passing through the membrane). So my concern is sanitizing equipment that hasn't been used in several years. The unit has been stored in a sealed Rubbermaid tub. No foul odors when I popped the lid. But the filters and lines weren't fully drained and allowed to dry. Hopefully I can find the spare parts and just Star San the lines and fittings.

Brooo Brother

 

[dwhite60]

I would try a gallon batch with the spring water.

Walmart is the other best option.

All the Best,
D. White

 

[couchsending]

Spring water is not necessarily great for brewing... Distilled and RO yes, spring water however could have who knows how much alkalinity and calcium, throwing your pH way off.

There has to be at least one store in your area that has an RO machine where you can bring refillable jugs. Literally every grocery store in the surrounding 25 miles Where I live has one. .39/gallon and no extra plastic waste.

@jimvision your buddies on wells might use a softener but the cold water at least to their kitchen sink shouldn’t be run through the softener so you could use that water. Do you know the water report for your Homebrew buddies municipal water? A lot of places post it. Guarantee you we could figure out how to adjust it. You have a bunch of iron in your water and you still drink it? Can’t you just get a simple inline carbon filter?

My well water is terrible for anything but the darkest styles, and even then still needs adjustment. However with lime softening or the boil and decant method I can make great Pale beer with it.

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

If you want to use a system that has be idle for 5 years, first pull all the filters including the membrane and toss them out. Then follow the directions on our website re how to sanitize the system with bleach. https://www.buckeyehydro.com/instructions/

However, know that RO membranes don't play well with iron. The iron will foul the membrane. Iron can be removed with a softener if the iron concentration is low, or with several other (typically whole-house) pieces of equipment.

Russ

 

[Broothru]

If you want to use a system that has be idle for 5 years, first pull all the filters including the membrane and toss them out. Then follow the directions on our website re how to sanitize the system with bleach. https://www.buckeyehydro.com/instructions/

However, know that RO membranes don't play well with iron. The iron will foul the membrane. Iron can be removed with a softener if the iron concentration is low, or with several other (typically whole-house) pieces of equipment.

Russ

I did find all the unused filters and spare membrane packed away with some other RV gear. I replaced the lot of them and finally got all the connections made between four filters and the membrane, with NO LEAKS, first time. Ran the new setup for 1 hour (as per directions) and just finished ROing 25 gallons. The system website had a water report showing the precise range of rejection ratios for different cations and anions. With those correction factors I was able to get an accurate profile of my well water after running through the R.O. setup. Based on the Ward Labs report and the filters' nominal rejection rates it calculated out that everything was 1 ppm or less except for chlorine (4 ppm) and HCO3 (9 ppm).

The one thing that gave me pause, however, was the pH reading I took after collecting the 25 gallons. My unfiltered well water according to Ward Labs was 7.3 pH but my meter read 6.8. I figured it was due to seasonal variations in the subterranean water table. When I measured the pH of the RO'd water I expected a decrease in pH of somewhere from 0.5 to 1.0 more acidic, but it measured 4.6 pH! WTF?

I recalibrated the meter with 7.01 and 4.01 buffers, cleaned the probe, rinsed with distilled water, recalibrated again, and STILL got 4.6 pH. This seems like a really big movement toward acidity after passing through the new filters and membrane. As I said, I expected a drop in pH, but not this magnitude. Is this normal with R.O. water? I would have expected something closer to a neutral 7.0 pH like distilled water rather than something closer to lemon juice. Anybody have an explanation?

TDS before R.O. were 184 ppm and total iron was <0.01 which is below detection limit. It shouldn't have any bearing on the readings or the analysis, but all our house water passes through a KDF carbon block filter, which includes the tap water sample and the post-R.O. water samples. The R.O. pH seems out of whack and I can't rationalize why. Help.

Brooo Brother

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

The pH of RO water is meaningless, as all the buffers have been striped from the water. No way you have 4 ppm chlorine in the RO water - unless you have a CTA membrane - do you? Do you mean chlorides?

 

[Broothru]

Correct on the chlorides. My mistake!

So I shouldn't have to be concerned with my pH reading after R.O. filtration. That's a relief! So I need to estimate my pH based on a nominal neutral, say 7.0, treat with brewing salts (determined from Bru'in Water), mash grains, then take a pH reading and add acid or buffers to correct for desired mash pH?

Brooo Brother

 

[RPh_Guy]

Correct on the chlorides. My mistake!

So I shouldn't have to be concerned with my pH reading after R.O. filtration. That's a relief! So I need to estimate my pH based on a nominal neutral, say 7.0, treat with brewing salts (determined from Bru'in Water), mash grains, then take a pH reading and add acid or buffers to correct for desired mash pH?

Brooo Brother

The pH of water is still meaningless. To properly estimate acid/base additions to correct mash pH, you need to use software that accounts for the minerals, buffering of the grist components, water volume, and water alkalinity (which is negligible for RO).

 

[Broothru]

Understood. Thanks for the explanation. I think I'm on the right track now.

Brooo Brother

 

[day_trippr]

If you leave RO or DI water in a gas-permeable container the pH will drop as atmospheric CO2 dissolves in the water.
While I don't leave my RO product sitting around long (I fill the kettles the evening before brewing) I've had jugs of DI water register pH in the 5s.

That said, there's virtually zero "ionic weight" to support those pH readings and it will be totally swamped by whatever it's combined with...

Cheers!

 

[Broothru]

Thanks to @day_trippr, @RPh_Guy and Buckeye_Hydro for the explanations. What should have been obvious to me now has clarity. I played around with some scenarios in the Brewer's Friend water calculator with some simple Pils/Continental lagers recipes I've brewed before with chemical additions to distilled water, and the numbers and predicted pH are very close to what actual pH values were on brew day. Thanks again.

Brooo Brother