Imperial stout...Stuck fermentation..Possible infection, need some advisple

[Jlaitila140]

(Sorry originally posted this in the wrong section)
Breakfast stout clone (5th beer brewed) need some help!

recipe: 10Gal AG
27lb Golden promise
3lb flaked oat
2lb Choco breiss
2lb Roasted barley
1lb Carafa III
1lb 120L Carmal malt
2OZ Nugget @60
2oz fuggle @30
1/4 bar unsweetened bakers chocolate and 1/4 bar 72% cacao chocolate @ 15.
2oz fuggle @0
@180 degrees steeped 1/2 lb of fresh roasted coffee in a hop bag for 20 mins... (it is seriously fresh roasted from a buddies coffee farm 3 days prior)
Yeast:
2 WYEAST 1056 in 2 step 2L starter (over 3 days)

Wort tasted great, OG @ 17 BRIX sorry i have a Refracometer and dont trust the SG rating on it

Transfered to fermenter (12 & 1/2 gal SS conical) at 70 deg.)
**** forgot to oxygenate**** oops

Decanted starter, dumped chilled wort into flast and swirled then dumped. Sealed and moved fermenter into home at 74deg (i know a little warm i have already adjusted for my next brew)

Beer fermented EXTREMELY VIGOROUSLY!! after only 6 hours "like a boil"... fermentation only lasted 24 hours at best..... Then completely stopped.. not even a burp after that.
I became suspicious so i tested ended up at 11 BRIX (i've sense baught a Hydrometer and it read 1030) thats only 5% or so ABV... no way not with a giant GB like that.
So on day 5 i pitch another WYEAST 1056 after it swelled thinking my starter wasn't enough.... well not even a burp.
Tested wort every few days stuck steady at 11 BRIX...or 1030
Its been 15 days, still at 1030 now so i opened the fermenter up and this is what it looked like (see pic).... since this is only my 5th brew i;m not to educated on a spoiled batch. When i taste the wort it doesn't fast terrible but it is pungent and a little strong flavored, i contributed that to the coffee not settling out yet, and there is still yeast and trub suspended in the beer (see it settle with every sample in the sample cup) so i can't educatedly say it tastes spoiled because i don't know.... but that layer onto the beer is not like anything i've seen in my other 4 batches that turned out normal, then again this is my first stout, big beer, and anything with any "different" flavorings than basic LHBS offers.

I need some help, this GB wasn't cheap and i don't want to dump it if i don't have to... Please experienced brewers give me some learning
-JJ

 

[JLeuck64]

I've been looking at both of your posts for days now... trying to decide how to respond. Just now it occurred to me what you are seeing floating on the top could be the wax from the chocolate you added. Once a long time ago I added a Hershey's chocolate bar late in the boil and I experienced that same odd looking substance floating on top of the fermenter. It won't hurt anything and when you get that beer to finish it will be easy to siphon, leaving all that gunk behind.

Now... how do we get that big beer to finish? Are you going to bottle? Kegging? How does a sample taste right now? Does it have any sweetness? Does it have a strong alcohol presence? My own experience would lead me to pitch in some champagne yeast and let it be for a while to see if that would help finish it out.

 

[specharka]

I've been looking at both of your posts for days now... trying to decide how to respond. Just now it occurred to me what you are seeing floating on the top could be the wax from the chocolate you added. Once a long time ago I added a Hershey's chocolate bar late in the boil and I experienced that same odd looking substance floating on top of the fermenter. It won't hurt anything and when you get that beer to finish it will be easy to siphon, leaving all that gunk behind.



Now... how do we get that big beer to finish? Are you going to bottle? Kegging? How does a sample taste right now? Does it have any sweetness? Does it have a strong alcohol presence? My own experience would lead me to pitch in some champagne yeast and let it be for a while to see if that would help finish it out.

Do not, I repeat, DO NOT DO THIS. Champagne yeast is capable of metabolizing simple sugars, and not the higher order sugars present in wort (maltose, maltotriose, etc). Additionally, it will kill any beer yeast present.

From my initial impressions, 25% adjunct seems really high. What were you mash temperatures and times? Makes sure your hydrometer and refractometer are calibrated properly.

 

[eastoak]

looks like that beer finished out high because of the high proportion of unfermentables. with the warm fermentation temperature the yeast partied through that beer lickety split then went to bed. if it was my beer i would dump it and try again.

 

[JLeuck64]

Whelp... at least I gave U an option at saving it... ( ;

 

[ShizuokaBrad]

"I became suspicious so i tested ended up at 11 BRIX (i've sense baught a Hydrometer and it read 1030) thats only 5% or so ABV... no way not with a giant GB like that."

You tested with a refractometer and got 11 BRIX then bought a hydrometer and got the same reading with alcohol present? That's not possible.

I'm not really sure what to suggest with this beer since there are so many chances for something to go wrong with a recipe like that. The type of chocolate and the way you add it to the beer makes a big difference. Same with coffee. You've got a lot of unfermentable sugar in that beer as well. What temp did you mash at?

Next time, you might want to introduce each variable/ingredient independently. Like make an imperial stout first, then add coffee the next time you brew it, then add chocolate (to the original imperial stout recipe), and finally brew it with both the coffee and the chocolate.

Even if nothing went wrong with that brew it's going to need to condition for the better part of a year before it'll start tasting right (probably...)

Sorry I can't be of more help.

 

[Jlaitila140]

I've been looking at both of your posts for days now... trying to decide how to respond. Just now it occurred to me what you are seeing floating on the top could be the wax from the chocolate you added. Once a long time ago I added a Hershey's chocolate bar late in the boil and I experienced that same odd looking substance floating on top of the fermenter. It won't hurt anything and when you get that beer to finish it will be easy to siphon, leaving all that gunk behind.

Now... how do we get that big beer to finish? Are you going to bottle? Kegging? How does a sample taste right now? Does it have any sweetness? Does it have a strong alcohol presence? My own experience would lead me to pitch in some champagne yeast and let it be for a while to see if that would help finish it out.

Thanks for the response, I plan on Kegging, putting some pressure on the keg and letting it condition for a month or so... the sample is strange i taste a lot of the coffee and it has a little tang to the tounge, i don't know if its from too much coffee flavor or something, but it has pleasant smells of chocolate and coffee. it doesn't have a to pronounced alcohol flavor, but then again theres so much different flavors in it i could be missing it maybe. wish i would have done something a little simpler for my first stout...
-JJ

 

[Jlaitila140]

"I became suspicious so i tested ended up at 11 BRIX (i've sense baught a Hydrometer and it read 1030) thats only 5% or so ABV... no way not with a giant GB like that."

You tested with a refractometer and got 11 BRIX then bought a hydrometer and got the same reading with alcohol present? That's not possible.

I'm not really sure what to suggest with this beer since there are so many chances for something to go wrong with a recipe like that. The type of chocolate and the way you add it to the beer makes a big difference. Same with coffee. You've got a lot of unfermentable sugar in that beer as well. What temp did you mash at?

Next time, you might want to introduce each variable/ingredient independently. Like make an imperial stout first, then add coffee the next time you brew it, then add chocolate (to the original imperial stout recipe), and finally brew it with both the coffee and the chocolate.

Even if nothing went wrong with that brew it's going to need to condition for the better part of a year before it'll start tasting right (probably...)

Sorry I can't be of more help.

Your right, for my first stout probably should have done something much simpler... i just love that beer so much i wanted to make it!
With the Refrac and hydrometer, idk i bought the refracometer because i thought it would be simpler than a hydrometer, didn't really know i had to do calculations on it (which isn't really a big deal) so thats why i bought a hydrometer to be more on par talking to other home brewers.... that being said Northern brewer and brewers friend calculators say 11 brix is 1.044 so IDK. either way i've checked it on both many times (probably too many times) and it comes out the same every time (i even let the sh*t settle out before taking a reading), 1.030 on hydrometer and 11 Brix on my refract...I calibrate the refract with distilled water each time, don't know how to calibrate a hydrometer but it reads 1.000 in water so i presume its good.
Would suspended coffee/chocolate/yeast in the wort skew the hyrom/refrac readings?

 

[Jlaitila140]

Do not, I repeat, DO NOT DO THIS. Champagne yeast is capable of metabolizing simple sugars, and not the higher order sugars present in wort (maltose, maltotriose, etc). Additionally, it will kill any beer yeast present.

From my initial impressions, 25% adjunct seems really high. What were you mash temperatures and times? Makes sure your hydrometer and refractometer are calibrated properly.

Excuse my inexperience but what is the adjunct? I mashed in at 155 for 45 mins, then mashed out, kicked on the heat and the recirc and slowly raised the temp to 168 prior to sparge, took 20 mins to hit 168 where i started fly sparge and transfer. Sparge was at 171, mash temp stayed at 168 throughout transfer.
started timer on boil once rolling boil achieved, melted chocolate in hot wort and added at 15 mins., chilled at 60 to 180 and steeped coffee (suggestion by LHBS) hindsight being 20/20 kinda wish i would have put the coffee in at the end of boil to ensure sanitization of the coffee and bag. Refrac calibrated W/ distilled water, IDK how to calibrate a hydrometer but it reads 1000 in water.
Thanks for the response and help.

 

[ShizuokaBrad]

I was just looking over the notes I had on using chocolate in recipes. The recommendation I've always gotten was to use it in the secondary for the following reasons:
- bakers chocolate or anything not 100% cocoa contain oil or fats. These affect the head retention on a beer and the fats might also go bad/rancid with age. Fats are released in the boil
- boiling/fermenting cacao deminishes flavour and aroma
...
but here's the big one that I had totally forgotten about:
...
- cacao contains antifugal agents that can kill/weaken yeast

I also can't understand why your LHBS would recommend adding coffee to wort after it has been cooled. Again, you should do that in secondary because the presence of alcohol will inhibit infection and fermentation will mess with the flavour of coffee (which also contains oil that are released when heated!). Pasteurization occurs 63C (145F)

 

[mblanks2]

**** forgot to oxygenate**** oops

Most likely the reason you only got to 1.030.

chilled at 60 to 180 and steeped coffee (suggestion by LHBS)

This is how a hopstand is performed and shouldn't hurt anything.

Would suspended coffee/chocolate/yeast in the wort skew the hyrom/refrac readings?

Possibly.

 

[HK823]

I've had a few stouts finishing too high too as well, so my take on this is drink as is after it's been sitting in the keg for a while.

Fermentation wise it'll probably not finish any lower. I ran through your numbers:

Original gravity of 17 brix equates to 1.07 SG (Northern Brewer calc).
That's not really that high for an imperial stout.

Final/current gravity of 11 brix equates to 1.027 SG (Northern Brewer calc).

5.64% ABV based on above SG.

 

[Ungoliant]

I had a similar problem with an FBS clone. I also got an oil slick look on top of the beer, but it didn't have an issues with infection or carbonation. Yours looks like potentially some hop particulate or leftover krausen got caught up on the oils from the chocolate. For a FBS clone you should get around 8.3%. I'd say that a lack of oxygenation and potentially your short mash time are contributors to your stoppage.

Some folks don't like this idea, because they say there's no "off switch." It's off switch is when they run out of complex sugars to convert. It's more dangerous to use something like beano.

That being said, I'd say hit it with Amylase (1/4 tsp/gallon, I add directly to the fermentor with a sanitized measuring spoon). I drop it in every batch I have a weird mash on (I'm still working the kinks out on maintaining my mash temps), and I haven't seen a batch drop below its intended FG with amylase, nor have I ended up with any bottle bombs.

 

[Jlaitila140]

I've had a few stouts finishing too high too as well, so my take on this is drink as is after it's been sitting in the keg for a while.

Fermentation wise it'll probably not finish any lower. I ran through your numbers:

Original gravity of 17 brix equates to 1.07 SG (Northern Brewer calc).
That's not really that high for an imperial stout.

Final/current gravity of 11 brix equates to 1.027 SG (Northern Brewer calc).

5.64% ABV based on above SG.

Yep, that calculator is what promoted me to start this thread because 5.64 just didn't make sense. I had a normal Mash (i think) strike temp @ 164, mash in at 155 W/ 11.25Gal for 45 mins then mashed out at 168 with re-circ (20 min rise), fly sparged w/ 6.4 gal @ 171 (15 min transfer), 60 min boil (started clock once at rolling boil achieved), so with a big grain bill like that how is it even possible to end up that low on OG? Think i could have Fudged up the testing with the refract? It never occurred to me till i looked at the recipe on Beer smith recently, OG suppose to be 1.090 which would have been 21.6BRIX, and a FG @ 1.021.. IDK how i could have messed up something that simple, but I am a rookie.

 

[Jlaitila140]

I had a similar problem with an FBS clone. I also got an oil slick look on top of the beer, but it didn't have an issues with infection or carbonation. Yours looks like potentially some hop particulate or leftover krausen got caught up on the oils from the chocolate. For a FBS clone you should get around 8.3%. I'd say that a lack of oxygenation and potentially your short mash time are contributors to your stoppage.

Some folks don't like this idea, because they say there's no "off switch." It's off switch is when they run out of complex sugars to convert. It's more dangerous to use something like beano.

That being said, I'd say hit it with Amylase (1/4 tsp/gallon, I add directly to the fermentor with a sanitized measuring spoon). I drop it in every batch I have a weird mash on (I'm still working the kinks out on maintaining my mash temps), and I haven't seen a batch drop below its intended FG with amylase, nor have I ended up with any bottle bombs.

Yeah, i have the O2 diffuser stone and O2 bottle and it was sitting in the Star san right next to me while i was pitching yeast and closing up the fermenter didn't realize till i was cleaning up. i did have oxygen in the yeast it self, i put some cooled wort in the erlmyer flask with my starter and swirled it up pretty good before i pitched, but i felt pretty stupid when i figured out i forgot, i didn't know if it was safe to oxygenate after yeast had been pitched, (was only 20 or so mins later i figured it out) so i just left it and hoped for the best... oops. I'll try the amylase, i'll have to order online i'm sure, that beers not coming out of the fermenter any time soon anyway. How long would you let it stay it before transfer? Just until FG is reached?

 

[Ungoliant]

Yeah, just until you hit a stable gravity (if it works). If it does, it won't take but maybe a week total to finish.

 

[Jlaitila140]

I've been looking at both of your posts for days now... trying to decide how to respond. Just now it occurred to me what you are seeing floating on the top could be the wax from the chocolate you added. Once a long time ago I added a Hershey's chocolate bar late in the boil and I experienced that same odd looking substance floating on top of the fermenter. It won't hurt anything and when you get that beer to finish it will be easy to siphon, leaving all that gunk behind.

Now... how do we get that big beer to finish? Are you going to bottle? Kegging? How does a sample taste right now? Does it have any sweetness? Does it have a strong alcohol presence? My own experience would lead me to pitch in some champagne yeast and let it be for a while to see if that would help finish it out.

So i just drew another sample, and it tastes like cold coffee that been sitting out, maybe a hint of chocolate after tones, but not alchoholy by many means. Do you think the coffee flavor will mellow out? would oak chips help at all? another poster suggested amylase.. would that do the same thing as champagne yeast?

 

[HK823]

Coffee will mellow out in time.

Simply put amylase is the enzyme that converts the starch in the grain kernel to simpler sugars that the yeast can on.
My understanding is that it'll only help if you didn't achieve full starch-to-sugar conversion.

Your mash temp of 155 could explain your high finishing gravity (and could you even have exceeded that temp?) The higher in the acceptable temp range some lesser fermentable sugars are produced by the enzyme resulting in the yeast leaving some sugars behind and you end up with a beer with lower abv, but with a fuller body.

 

[LostBoyScout]

I brewed the same beer and it had a "permanent krausen" looking thing due to the chocolate. Mine went from 1092 to 1030 and that was perfect. Tastes great, best beer I've made in a while.

 

[mblanks2]

fly sparged w/ 6.4 gal @ 171 (15 min transfer)

Here's where your efficiency went. Generally takes me 45 to 60 minutes for a proper fly sparge.

another poster suggested amylase.. would that do the same thing as champagne yeast?

I've never had to use amylase so I cant speak to that, but champagne yeast isn't going to do anything for you. Your wort was low on OG due to a short fly sparge leaving large amounts of sugar behind. You didn't drop any lower in gravity because the yeast were finished. 1.026 isn't a bad finishing gravity for a beer with this amount of roasted malts and the mash temperature that you performed.
Personally I would've mashed at 150*F for an hour, spent an hour fly sparging, oxygenate the wort and provide a healthy pitch of yeast. Carb what you have for a low ABV stout and try again. This is how we learn to make even better beer. I just finished my annual RIS that has clocked in at 13.2% following what I just posted.
Also, if you use software to design your brew. You typically need to lower the efficiency for larger roasty beers by 5% to 8%.