I'm thinking I may quit using brew software

[Clonefarmer]

:thick skin warning:



Says the guy with the link to a bunch of brewing calculators in his sig... hehe

Just because I don't use them doesn't mean I can't share them .

 

[dingusmingus]

I would say that acutally crunching the numbers probably won't make you a better brewer, but the process of designing a recipe on paper could force you to better understand the relationship between grain and og, for example, or between time, AA%, and IBUs.

I suppose it might be useful to actually design your own spreadsheet from scratch, then use that for the actually number crunching.

All that said--I remember reading How to Brew and Designing Great Beers, and at the time devoted some amount of energy to understanding how a recipe works. Now, I use Beersmith and love it.

 

[swankyswede]

I seem to remember a podcast by Jamil where he says that there are two kinds of brewers: those who love the the process, and those who love end product, i.e. the guy who gets excited about his triple decoction mash and the guy that throws some melanoidin malt in there to achieve a similar, if not exactly the same effect. Granted, there are shades of gray, but I think it's pretty clear that the people doing calcs by hand really like seeing where those numbers come from. While the two types of brewers may turn out the same beer, the experience is different for each. There are definitely people on here that would malt their own grain and grow their own hops just because they like to do it, and there are those who use the pre-malted grains and pelletized hops. Neither is the better brewer, one just gets their kicks really seeing the inner workings of something.

 

[dorklord]

What formulas are you guys, who are doing this by hand or using spreadsheets, using? The ones from designing great beers?

I think that doing the calculations by hand a few times might help to understand the underlying concepts (which I would like to do), but once you understand it, doing them by hand just increases the likelihood of making mistakes, so you might as well put the formulas into a spreadsheet or a program.

Or maybe you can make your own homebrew slide rule or disk calculator...

 

[GRHunter]

I don't know if it would make you a better brewer, but it would give you a more down to earth understanding of the nuts and bolts of the process. You'll probably screw up a few batches, but I would think that if nothing else you would definitely increase your math skills.

 

[passedpawn]

I don't know if it would make you a better brewer, but it would give you a more down to earth understanding of the nuts and bolts of the process. You'll probably screw up a few batches, but I would think that if nothing else you would definitely increase your math skills.

Sure. Try doing SRM = 1.49 * MCUs^0.69 <-- morley curve for beer color

I haven't the faintest idea how to raise a number to a fractional power without using a calculator. Although I guess that even using a calculator is still doing it "by hand"... right?

 

[swankyswede]

Sure. Try doing SRM = 1.49 * MCUs^0.69 <-- morley curve for beer color

I haven't the faintest idea how to raise a number to a fractional power without using a calculator. Although I guess that even using a calculator is still doing it "by hand"... right?

Right, just not using software. Even medieval brewers had abacuses, amirite?

 

[remilard]

Sure. Try doing SRM = 1.49 * MCUs^0.69 <-- morley curve for beer color

I haven't the faintest idea how to raise a number to a fractional power without using a calculator. Although I guess that even using a calculator is still doing it "by hand"... right?

If you can make a reasonable guess you could do it fairly quickly by hand using Newton's method.

Srsly though, most of these things ought to be approached empirically anyway. Maybe these formulae for estimating bitterness or color are useful for a first crack at a recipe but after that if you want it lighter or darker or more bitter or less bitter you really shouldn't be using software to figure out what to do.

 

[Tiber_Brew]

I am not wanting to give up the brewsmith because it's bad or something, I just think that doing everything on paper will make me a better brewer in the long run. I've never asked any pro brewers but i would bet they do it by hand. What do you all think?

I hear ya.

I have to admit, though, when I first started AG brewing, I used beertools.com to get me in the ballpark. Once I figured out what malts did what, and what alpha acids did what in the boil, I ditched using recipe calculators and generators.

....for the most part.

I always write my recipes by hand, but sometimes I'll punch it in to a recipe calc for checks and balances. I'd say about 5% of the time it actually influences my recipe though.

By the way, I personally know two professional brewers who don't use recipe calculators. FWIW.

TB

 

[Tiber_Brew]

If you can make a reasonable guess you could do it fairly quickly by hand using Newton's method.

Srsly though, most of these things ought to be approached empirically anyway. Maybe these formulae for estimating bitterness or color are useful for a first crack at a recipe but after that if you want it lighter or darker or more bitter or less bitter you really shouldn't be using software to figure out what to do.

Agreed. What's the point of calculating (predicting) the color, IBU, OG, etc. to the nth degree when there are MANY variables in your process, let alone unaccounted for elements missing in the calculator itself? Yeah, it'll get you in the ballpark (maybe even really close in some or most cases), but I've written close to 100 recipes by hand (no calcs) that satisfied my intent. I do take some pride in that.

Does that make me a better brewer? Absolutely not. It's all in the beer itself, and that's what matters. (Well, that and having a good time!) Am I worse off not using a calc? Certainly not in my case, but that will depend on the brewer. Empirical data is the best thing you have going for you as a brewer writing recipes (assuming consistent equipment, and that you take good notes). That's direct feedback on the outcome of all the elements in your process and ingredients.

However, there is absolutely zero shame in using a calculator, or software of any kind. It's a tool available to us that has undoubtedly resulted in more efficient brewing processes, and cost savings. I appreciated solving limits of equations in calculus by hand too, but I won't give up my TI-83.

 

[DeafSmith]

I am not wanting to give up the brewsmith because it's bad or something, I just think that doing everything on paper will make me a better brewer in the long run. I've never asked any pro brewers but i would bet they do it by hand. What do you all think?

Get a sliderule!

Seriously, I sometimes do calculations with a sliderule and soroban, just because I like playing with them, but if I'm really planning on brewing a recipe, I'll always run it through Beersmith, too.

 

[DeafSmith]

Sure. Try doing SRM = 1.49 * MCUs^0.69 <-- morley curve for beer color

I haven't the faintest idea how to raise a number to a fractional power without using a calculator. Although I guess that even using a calculator is still doing it "by hand"... right?

It's easy with a slide rule! :rockin:

 

[badhabit]

Doing it all by hand sure helps with your own education. You actualy understand why and what to do to get the end product that you are after.

 

[sbsam]

i would say keep it all on paper regardless of what you do. There is plenty of time during mash/boil to write it down. maybe buy a nice book to do it in. its nice too look at between brews and it is like a journal.

 

[HodgsonsBrewer]

I do everything on paper. I read Ray Daniels "Designing Great Beers" after that I went old school. It really isn't that hard and it doesn't take that long. I don't lose recipes due to computer issues. It wouldn't kill you to learn it. As for being a better brewer,, well It helps my record keeping to do it this way as I keep notes along with the recipes that I brew all in a 3 ring binder. Do what you like, GEEK OUT, buy a program, just brew.

 

[HodgsonsBrewer]

I do use a program for my mash temps!

 

[dantodd]

Also, I would bet that most of us can't create a recipe right now, and accurately calculate color, bitterness, and/or OG estimate/% efficiency. Well...kai can.

That is all relatively simple. The problem is that I like to fidget with the ingredients and calculating by hand takes considerably longer than using software. While I can develop a recipe quite easily and get in style without using software it is much faster and more flexible to use more advanced tools. I agree with you that it is important to understand how the software gets the answers and being able to work without software is valuable doing so doesn't make you a better brewer. I brewed for 10 years before I ever got so much as an excel spreadsheet to help with the math.

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

I do everything on paper. I read Ray Daniels "Designing Great Beers" after that I went old school. It really isn't that hard and it doesn't take that long. I don't lose recipes due to computer issues. It wouldn't kill you to learn it. As for being a better brewer,, well It helps my record keeping to do it this way as I keep notes along with the recipes that I brew all in a 3 ring binder. Do what you like, GEEK OUT, buy a program, just brew.

I used that book to make an Excel spreadsheet that does all of the calculations. I made it about 10-11 years ago and have tweeked it quite a bit. Sheet 1 is the recipe, Sheet 2 is the Brew Volume Calculator, Sheet 3 is the Strike and Infusion/Decoction temperatures and volumes, Sheet 4 is the EZ Water Adjustment Calculator, Sheet 5 is the Tasting Notes.

I tried BrewSmith for the trial period but the creature of habit in me went back to my own spreadsheet when the trial was over. I still need to tweek my color estimation, I can't get it to be accurate at both really low SRM (<5) and at high SRM (>25) at the same time.

 

[passedpawn]

I tried BrewSmith for the trial period but the creature of habit in me went back to my own spreadsheet when the trial was over. I still need to tweek my color estimation, I can't get it to be accurate at both really low SRM (<5) and at high SRM (>25) at the same time.

Likley, you are doing it the quick way. When you arrive at the final SRM, apply the Morey curve which is an exponential to correct at low and high SRMs. See this link for more info:

http://www.beersmith.com/blog/2008/04/29/beer-color-understanding-srm-lovibond-and-ebc/

BTW, that is a link to the BeerSmith site

 

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

I think the problem lies not with what we brew or the tools we use to brew it. Many people seem a little obsessed about brewing to a certain style.

I'm all for winging it. Wing it with a tool, wing it without tools. Just brew the stuff, and don't get pre-occupied with coulour, carbonation, FG etc.

Once you have your method, you don't NEED Beersmith......Guess what, you don't NEED pen and paper either.

Srsly though, most of these things ought to be approached empirically anyway. Maybe these formulae for estimating bitterness or color are useful for a first crack at a recipe but after that if you want it lighter or darker or more bitter or less bitter you really shouldn't be using software to figure out what to do.

That's what I had INTENDED to say. In my woefully inadequate post

Give that man a pint on me!

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

Likley, you are doing it the quick way. When you arrive at the final SRM, apply the Morey curve which is an exponential to correct at low and high SRMs. See this link for more info:

http://www.beersmith.com/blog/2008/04/29/beer-color-understanding-srm-lovibond-and-ebc/

BTW, that is a link to the BeerSmith site

No not really the quick way, just the wrong way. I came up with a curve and used a polynomial to fit the curve...but it just isn't accurate at the low and high ends. It's just something that I've needed to revisit for a while and haven't. Now I'm sufficiently motivated.

 

[DNW]

I don't think that doing recipes longhand makes you a better brewer any more than using a car to get to work makes you a better employee. As many have already said, software is a tool. A tool by itself doesn't make you better or worse at what you're doing, it's what you do with it or how you use it that has the potential for changing the outcome. If you want to go really old school, try doing recipe formulation in your head...

 

[Tiber_Brew]

I don't think that doing recipes longhand makes you a better brewer any more than using a car to get to work makes you a better employee. As many have already said, software is a tool. A tool by itself doesn't make you better or worse at what you're doing, it's what you do with it or how you use it that has the potential for changing the outcome. If you want to go really old school, try doing recipe formulation in your head...

I may be speaking for myself here, but sometimes I'll throw a recipe together without calculating anything, with or without software. It might be brew day, and I say to myself, "what am I gonna brew today? hmm...let's do a brown ale. I'll throw some of this in for color, this for some body, and I'll mash at X temperature to dry it out a bit...etc...etc..." Now, does that make me a better brewer? Nope! But those brews are always fun, and I don't find it necessary to always calculate everything, be it by hand or with software.

Ask several bakers or chefs if they have recipe calculators. I'd be curious to find out.

 

[jaobrien6]

I would say that acutally crunching the numbers probably won't make you a better brewer, but the process of designing a recipe on paper could force you to better understand the relationship between grain and og, for example, or between time, AA%, and IBUs.

I suppose it might be useful to actually design your own spreadsheet from scratch, then use that for the actually number crunching.

I agree with this approach. I think there's tremendous value in learning how the calculations work, etc. I personally started with a spreadsheet someone else had put together, but I didn't like it, so I basically rebuilt it the way I wanted it, which taught me how all the math worked.

Now I wouldn't consider doing things without software, now that I understand it well enough for my tastes. At this point, it would just be busywork.

 

[ceannt]

It is very handy to at least learn the calculations, and run through them a few times. It not only helps a guy "get his head around" what is going on behind the scenes in the software... but you can formulate a recipe when there is no computer access. I've calced out recipes on a napkin, sitting in a bar.... I almost always run the "first blush" concept by hand (habit more than anything, when I started brewing software didn't exist.....). For final tweaking, well, software is just plain faster.

 

[Homercidal]

I have thought about doing this as well. The software makes it too easy for a beginner to skip the understanding process and go right to recipe formulation. Nothing wrong with this if you want to just brew beer. But I think that doing the math a few times can help you understand how the software works. Then go back to using the software because who's got time to sit with a book and plot all this stuff out?

 

[SamuraiSquirrel]

................ this thread reminds me of the nerds who did the even & odd homework problems even though the solutions to the odd problems were in the back of the book ..........

Do what you gotta do to conceptually understand what's going on then find a way to save yourself sometime. Beersmith is far from flawless but I use if (at least to some degree) for every brew. Never needed to write out a batch by hand to understand the inner workings of the "how's" and "why's"

 

[Tiber_Brew]

................ this thread reminds me of the nerds who did the even & odd homework problems even though the solutions to the odd problems were in the back of the book ..........

Heh, I'll admit I'm a nerd. I'm an enginerd.