I'm bringing back the "Is secondary necessary?" argument

[bruin_ale]

I have nothing else to add.

BTW, my statement isn't meant to knock all LHBS owners. I realize there are quite a few that are still on these boards, still reading the latest books and doing experiments to better their beer - I'm not talking about those guys. Just that many of the stores I've got in my area don't do this stuff and it feels like they read the 1st edition of Palmer's "How to Brew" thirty years ago and think they know it all.

 

[Zixxer10R]

No worries Bruin, i wouldn't have started this thread if i didn't respect my LHBS. He's demonstrated his plentiful and up to date knowledge on more than one occasion, so he's EARNED my respect.

That's the only reason i brought this all up.

 

[Charlie_in_TX]

IMO the LHBS is not trying to sell me anything. I will either buy 'secondaries' or 'primaries'. Either way, I will have to have many fermentation vessels. If I have a beer in my 'primary' for 3 months, I have had to brew 25 gallons of beer in that time period. That Means 5 more 'primaries'. That beer is going somewhere. LHBS doesn't charge me more if I am using a vessel for a 'secondary'.

I change what I do regularly. Sometime I ferment in the primary for 3 or 4 week, transfer to a keg (with a dose of sugar), and age there until it is needed in the keezer. Sometime it take a week from brew day to keezer. Sometime it is a couple months.

In the end it is beer in my glass and I enjoy it.

PS - some seem so anal about beer and how to properly brew it. Take a chill pill. Kick back and enjoy yourself. Allow other to enjoy what they are doing. Even if it is different than what you do. There are important things to worry about in life. Beer is not one of them.

 

[rockfish42]

BTW, my statement isn't meant to knock all LHBS owners. I realize there are quite a few that are still on these boards, still reading the latest books and doing experiments to better their beer - I'm not talking about those guys. Just that many of the stores I've got in my area don't do this stuff and it feels like they read the 1st edition of Palmer's "How to Brew" thirty years ago and think they know it all.

What's bizarre is that some of the branches of local stores don't even read what they've published on their own websites.
I eventually stopped asking questions I knew would make one of the store owners around there flip out.

 

[bob1852]

I don't really see an advantage to join the "month in primary" club. It may not hurt your beer, but I have yet to see ONE scientific study that says it will help. Having a couple of people tell me that it didn't hurt is anecdotal, and I believe it, but I still don't see a benefit.

For me, it's about my schedule, as I have yet to see any scientific study that says it hurts to leave it in the primary for a month (obviously taking into consideration all of the other steps in the process).

I've 10 gallons of red ale sitting in the primary that I brewed on 7/16/11. I've 10 gallons of pale ale sitting in the primary that I brewed on Saturday.

I'll keg all four batches next weekend. I'm a little lazy and would rather sanitize equipment and kegs all on the same day.

So for me it's a schedule issue, as we all can't be retired and living the good life like Yoop!

 

[jsunww]

I'm only on my second batch ever, so I'm no expert in the matter by any means. My first batch I left in the primary for 3 weeks and then bottled. For my second batch I decided to go with a "secondary" for two reasons. 1. to see how it would affect clarity and 2 (probably the most important) so I could free up my primary for my third batch. I don't have enough experience to decide whether a secondary is good or bad or neither, but based on what I've read here on HBT I may never be able to make that decision. I think it's going to end up being a matter of doing whatever I feel like doing for that particular batch and enjoying the results without feeling guilty about the method I chose.

 

[Germelli1]

I'm only on my second batch ever, so I'm no expert in the matter by any means. My first batch I left in the primary for 3 weeks and then bottled. For my second batch I decided to go with a "secondary" for two reasons. 1. to see how it would affect clarity and 2 (probably the most important) so I could free up my primary for my third batch. I don't have enough experience to decide whether a secondary is good or bad or neither, but based on what I've read here on HBT I may never be able to make that decision. I think it's going to end up being a matter of doing whatever I feel like doing for that particular batch and enjoying the results without feeling guilty about the method I chose.

I think the most important aspects of the debates are actually trying both methods for yourself! Kudos for doing so!

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

No worries Bruin, i wouldn't have started this thread if i didn't respect my LHBS. He's demonstrated his plentiful and up to date knowledge on more than one occasion, so he's EARNED my respect.

That's the only reason i brought this all up.

What store are you going to? Foreman's? Fort Worth Homebrew?


While I assume autolysis occurs at some point, I struggle to believe it causes a noticeable effect on beer under most circumstances. Sours, which can sit on yeast cakes for years before being bottled certainly do not taste like hot dogs. Similarly, beers bottled or kegged for months upon months also do not taste like hot dogs. I have beer in bottles that are over a month old and have no meat flavors or aromas. Hell I have wild beers with almost an inch thick of trub in the bottom of the bottle that are a year old and still don't taste like snausages. Even though autolysis is accelerated by heat and pressure, those bottles have sat through 75-80F in my house over the summer and they are all under pressure. Autolysis is probably more common in large scale production facilities where the pressure far exceeds what homebrewers experience in our fermenters, kegs, or bottles. Maybe I don't understand autolysis as much as I could but in my experience I have yet to run across a real problem with autolysis.

That's my opinion. If you think doing a secondary makes for a better beer then you should do it.

 

[Zixxer10R]

I'm going to Dr Jekyls currently. If I knew of one closer i would go there though, i'm not tied to Arlington by any stretch.

Foreman's is in Colleyville right? Where is Ft Worth Homebrew?

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

I'm going to Dr Jekyls currently. If I knew of one closer i would go there though, i'm not tied to Arlington by any stretch.

Foreman's is in Colleyville right? Where is Ft Worth Homebrew?

Dr. Jekyll's seems real old school. I mean, it's in Pantego. The whole town looks like it's trapped in 1983. I've never talked to the people there, I've just bought beer, so I'm not sure what the quality of his advice is.


Foreman's is in Colleyville on 26. Small selection but cheap grains, expensive everything else. FTW Homebrew is near 820 and 35 on the south side. It's farther than Pantego but maybe a faster drive (when 35 isn't backed up). Great diversity of selection. Probably cheaper than Dr. Jekylls.

There's also a store in Keller that primarily sells mail order grains for distilling but they will let you pick up orders. They are dirt cheap on grains as long as you're willing to buy 5lb bags. It's strictly base grain kind of stuff. http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...sg=AFQjCNGfVdFMRmgmB8eKvqNPEa9pReAwqw&cad=rja

 

[teresalgl]

I have dihydrogen monoxide for sale! $5/pint -- heluva deal

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

I am selling dihydrogen monoxide with NH2Cl additions for $6/pint.

 

[Fennis]

In my opinion, I don't care what anyone else thinks. If I want to let my beer sit in a secondary for a while, then I will do that. If I want to let it sit on the yeast in the primary for 3 weeks, then I will do that. It comes down to personal preference and your own experience. After all, the majority of people posting here are not going to be drinking your beer, you are. This debate is almost as bad as politics. People have their own beliefs, and you will not convince them otherwise, so just do what you feel makes the best beer to your tastes.

There are many topics that this forum gives excellent advice on, but in this case, I think its completely up to your own preference over what is the "best method", because I would have to believe both methods will produce fantastic beer, and both don't really have a significant advantage or disadvantage.

 

[meatwad]

The dominatrix brewer has spoken.......well said Yoop.

IMO, if you pitch the proper amount of fresh, healthy yeast into a properly sanitized container and control ferment temps, there should be very few of the "off flavors" for the yeast to re-digest.

10-14 days is my window for ales in primary, too. OTOH, after the beer is racked, it usually sits in a keg for a month or two. I guess that would be considered a bright tank.

Edited to add it really isn't, or shouldn't be, an argument. It's your beer, treat it how you choose.

Uh, I'm Hugh Jass

 

[JJL]

As some of the others said it's a combination of old info and business opportunity. I mean the guy at the LHBS probably isn't intentionally trying to rip you off by selling you a $25 extra vessel. Most of the most commonly cited literature in homebrewing still says to use a secondary. At best he lacks knowledge. At worst he's taking advantage of the ambiguity present in the available literature.

As for me, I've tried both schools of thought and many processes in between. What I've settled on that works for me is a 7-14 day primary (7 days is typically for low grav beers). Then I use my secondary as more of a bright beer tank, since I still bottle. I transfer to the secondary and cold crash for a few days. I've found, for me, this allows for the transfer of the least amount of yeast to the bottle of all the processes I've tried. But, it's really whatever works for you.

 

[scottland]

BTW, my statement isn't meant to knock all LHBS owners. I realize there are quite a few that are still on these boards, still reading the latest books and doing experiments to better their beer - I'm not talking about those guys. Just that many of the stores I've got in my area don't do this stuff and it feels like they read the 1st edition of Palmer's "How to Brew" thirty years ago and think they know it all.

Agreed. The LHBS owners on this board are some of the most knowledgeable home brewers. But there are plenty of LHBS owners that follow really out dated info.

 

[Airborneguy]

I love reading threads where people get all worked up about what other people do with beer they will never drink

 

[frydogbrews]

mostly the reason i secondary is because i get bored with it sitting in a primary for three weeks and i want to fiddle with it. putting it in a secondary gives me something to do, plus, i like to have it in a clear vessel for awhile so i can stare at it. i don't care if its an extra, useless step, because i have free time and thats how i like to spend it.

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

mostly the reason i secondary is because i get bored with it sitting in a primary for three weeks and i want to fiddle with it. putting it in a secondary gives me something to do, plus, i like to have it in a clear vessel for awhile so i can stare at it. i don't care if its an extra, useless step, because i have free time and thats how i like to spend it.

Not allowed. Sorry.

 

[Baldy_Beer_Brewery]

This weekend i had a nice conversation with my LHBS owner about how i wasn't secondary-ing any longer just because i had been convinced on this forum that most people aren't using this step any longer.

I wouldn't do everything my local home brew shop owner tells me to do (and I have an excellent lhbs) just as i don't do everything I read about on this or any other forum. I will however explore different options if they seem to make sense. There are very few things IMHO that have to be done a certain way.

You have apparently done secondaries and not done them so you can decide for yourself if they are worth doing.

 

[20000Barrels]

As for me, I've tried both schools of thought and many processes in between. What I've settled on that works for me is a 7-14 day primary (7 days is typically for low grav beers). Then I use my secondary as more of a bright beer tank, since I still bottle. I transfer to the secondary and cold crash for a few days. I've found, for me, this allows for the transfer of the least amount of yeast to the bottle of all the processes I've tried. But, it's really whatever works for you.

Being a rookie but I agree with this being a good enough reason for secondary.

 

[SilverKing]

If you feel the need, then do it.

I feel like that is the best answer to so many questions.

I think the question of "should i do ____ with my beer", should always depend on what the final goal is.

 

[Darwin18]

I wouldn't do everything my local home brew shop owner tells me to do (and I have an excellent lhbs) just as i don't do everything I read about on this or any other forum. I will however explore different options if they seem to make sense. There are very few things IMHO that have to be done a certain way.

You have apparently done secondaries and not done them so you can decide for yourself if they are worth doing.

Agreed. While this site is a great source of home brewing information and has really helped me to make good quality (even award winning!) beer, I don't follow everything that I see on here. Proper temperature control, correct yeast pitching rates (make a damn starter!), and a solid recipe will almost always yield a quality beer. Some people take the attention to details(ie efficiency) too far in my opinion and that starts to make brewing more like work and not so much fun.

However, I digress. I don't bother with secondaries. I primary for two-three weeks and transfer to my kegs. The beer is going to sit in my keg at 38F for at least two weeks while carbing - so any yeast in suspension is going to settle out. I think using a secondary unnecessarily risks potential infection and exposure of your beer to oxygen.

 

[Bobby_M]

I love reading threads where people get all worked up about what other people do with beer they will never drink

I don't think anyone is getting particularly worked up. If this isn't a place to analyze and potentially dispel conventional wisdom about best practices in homebrewing, what is it? I won't drink 99.99% of beer made by people on this forum but it doesn't mean I'm packing up and leaving.

A couple years ago, there was a BYO experiment or article where over 20 homebrewed beers were tested in a lab for various common contaminants and I do recall noticing a significant positive correlation between infected samples and the brewer's use of a secondary. I can't find the damn article but I do remember they weren't even testing for this particular phenomena and it was never mentioned.

 

[makomachine]

I won't drink 99.99% of beer made by people on this forum but it doesn't mean I'm packing up and leaving.

Won't or wouldn't? Just trying to figure out if we should be offended or not!

Secondaries are a thing of the past for me. My personal experience is I make better beer since I dropped them. Dry hop in the keg, if required, after typically 10 to 14 days in primary for most ales. (confirming I'm at final gravity). Transfer infection and oxidation risks are more impacting than anything coming off of such a short time period on the yeast.

 

[JonK331]

Here you go. Temp controlled pale ale left in primary for 3 weeks. Gelatin added to the primary and cold crashed for the last few days then kegged. When I took the pic it had only been in the keg for 48hrs and this was the second glass. If you put it next to SNPA it is equally clean and clear in flavor and appearance.

Still want to secondary? Go ahead...

 

[passedpawn]

A couple years ago, there was a BYO experiment or article where over 20 homebrewed beers were tested in a lab for various common contaminants and I do recall noticing a significant positive correlation between infected samples and the brewer's use of a secondary. I can't find the damn article but I do remember they weren't even testing for this particular phenomena and it was never mentioned.

Might be this article (I had it bookmarked for the IBU measurement stuff). Halfway through they test for contaminants. 12 years ago... things have improved greatly in the area of sanitation since then.

http://brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue7.1/bonham.html

 

[houndsbreath]

3-5 threads a day about this aren't enough for you?

Just read this. Every debate, discussion, scientific reason, argument, reargument, re-discussion, re-debate, and every guestion has been done ad nauseum in that thread, and about a thousand others, but that one seems to be the best.

Heck, just print it out and hand it to him. Or just let him believe what he believe, and believe what you believe.

Do you really feel the need to re-invent the wheel for the 30 millionth time? We've been talking about it for 4 years on here. There's plenty of information on here already without rehashing the same useless arguments over and over.

Well said Revvy. Who cares? If you like using a secondary and if the beer tastes good in the end do it. If not, don't. Or there's option #3: Use the secondary when you feel like it. This is beer, not rocket science...

 

[Homercidal]

To me, beer starts to taste nasty if it's been in a secondary. I mean, you wouldn't wouldn't prefer "second"-hand clothes, would you? How about sloppy "seconds"?

I rest my case.

 

[littlelord]

To me, beer starts to taste nasty if it's been in a secondary. I mean, you wouldn't wouldn't prefer "second"-hand clothes, would you? How about sloppy "seconds"?

I rest my case.

ewww!! second-hand clothing!!! grossssss!!!