I'm about to give up.

[bracconiere]

Now if I could only recreate the aroma of fresh cream like König Ludwig Weissbier Hell...

you want some fresh oat malt? i haven't malted oats in a while....

 

[Jayjay1976]

you want some fresh oat malt? i haven't malted oats in a while....

Um, heck yes I do! Sounds like a great place to start!
To my palate, that's also the magical fresh cream character in Monchshof Kellerbier that so far has eluded my cloninng attempts.

 

[thehaze]

Have you tried increasing the amount of glucose and the OG for your hefeweizens? Mash high, aim for a 1.060-1.065 OG, ferment warm, underpitch 20-25% and try a open/semi-open fermentation. The regular Weihenstephaner is 5.4%. It finishes at 1.010. Their Vitus is a 7.7% weinzenbock, which, besides the increased alcohol, it does feel very drinkable. It's got a subtle sweetness and fruitiness, but the banana is nowhere near as proeminent as in the regular hefe. The carbonation, the body, the colour, the mouthfeel make Vitus a really easy drinking weizenbock. It also finishes at around 1.010-1.009. That's crazy ( based on the original gravity stated on their website ). I also think the must use some sort of natural carbonation / krausening. Based on FG, you would thin these beers would feel drier or better attenuated, but they don't.

 

[Velnerj]

I've been watching this thread for a while and I'd like to congratulate @Jayjay1976 on finally achieving his dream!

I've had similar issues with heffes, though I'm not as experienced.

@Jayjay1976 what do you think contributed to this batch's success? Do you think it was the extract? Does that mean you have issues with your mashing process? I can't recall if the yeast was new too, or have you tried it before? What will you do in the future to replicate what you accomplished?

 

[Jayjay1976]

Have you tried increasing the amount of glucose and the OG for your hefeweizens? Mash high, aim for a 1.060-1.065 OG, ferment warm, underpitch 20-25% and try a open/semi-open fermentation. The regular Weihenstephaner is 5.4%. It finishes at 1.010. Their Vitus is a 7.7% weinzenbock, which, besides the increased alcohol, it does feel very drinkable. It's got a subtle sweetness and fruitiness, but the banana is nowhere near as proeminent as in the regular hefe. The carbonation, the body, the colour, the mouthfeel make Vitus a really easy drinking weizenbock. It also finishes at around 1.010-1.009. That's crazy ( based on the original gravity stated on their website ). I also think the must use some sort of natural carbonation / krausening. Based on FG, you would thin these beers would feel drier or better attenuated, but they don't.

I'm a big fan of Vitus, agreed on the great profile and amazing drinkability; I've tried brewing something similar myself and failed to bring the banana at several different wort densities up to about 1.075 in a weizenbock. Not sure about the glucose, does that mean adding gluco-amylase? I have some on hand, just haven't had a chance to try it yet. Can you share more?

 

[Jayjay1976]

I've been watching this thread for a while and I'd like to congratulate @Jayjay1976 on finally achieving his dream!

I've had similar issues with heffes, though I'm not as experienced.

@Jayjay1976 what do you think contributed to this batch's success? Do you think it was the extract? Does that mean you have issues with your mashing process? I can't recall if the yeast was new too, or have you tried it before? What will you do in the future to replicate what you accomplished?

Thanks @Velnerj ! I attribute the success to brewing with extract, so something must be wrong with my mashing technique. I have used this strain in the past, in fact I had a fresher pouch of it in my fridge but I opted to go with the one that came in my kit and wasn't stored refrigerated. Now I can rule out that one variable, along with the 2 oz. of Saaz that came with it, so make that two variables.

TBH, I'm still frustrated that I can't get there with AG and have to resort to a box mix, but all the same, this little victory has restored my confidence and I have 5 gallons of delicious beer to show for it.

This experiment rules out the following variables:
-wort density
-yeast strain
-yeast freshness
-fermentation temp
-fermentation time (kegged it on day 7)
-fermenter type (PET, Fermonster)
-fermenter geometry
-open vs. closed fermentation
-fermenting under pressure
-wardrobe choice and ambient music (monk robes, chants, etc.)
-freshness of hops
-my brewing mojo in general
-my racking/kegging technique

Any additional thoughts?

 

[Velnerj]

Thanks @Velnerj ! I attribute the success to brewing with extract, so something must be wrong with my mashing technique. I have used this strain in the past, in fact I had a fresher pouch of it in my fridge but I opted to go with the one that came in my kit and wasn't stored refrigerated. Now I can rule out that one variable, along with the 2 oz. of Saaz that came with it, so make that two variables.

TBH, I'm still frustrated that I can't get there with AG and have to resort to a box mix, but all the same, this little victory has restored my confidence and I have 5 gallons of delicious beer to show for it.

This experiment rules out the following variables:
-wort density
-yeast strain
-yeast freshness
-fermentation temp
-fermentation time (kegged it on day 7)
-fermenter type (PET, Fermonster)
-fermenter geometry
-open vs. closed fermentation
-fermenting under pressure
-wardrobe choice and ambient music (monk robes, chants, etc.)
-freshness of hops
-my brewing mojo in general
-my racking/kegging technique

Any additional thoughts?

Could you also rule out chilling techniques? Did you use your normal chilling process or did you get a hold of an immersion chiller?

 

[thehaze]

I'm a big fan of Vitus, agreed on the great profile and amazing drinkability; I've tried brewing something similar myself and failed to bring the banana at several different wort densities up to about 1.075 in a weizenbock. Not sure about the glucose, does that mean adding gluco-amylase? I have some on hand, just haven't had a chance to try it yet. Can you share more?

Glucose is a simple sugar. Gluco-amylase will break down inaccessible sugars for the yeast to chew on, thus increasing attenuation and making your beer drier. You can go through the following links below and see if you can use any of it:

https://dafteejit.com/2015/08/optimizing-a-hefeweizen-mash-for-esters-and-phenols/https://byo.com/article/german-hefeweizen-style-profile/https://braumagazin.de/article/brewing-bavarian-weissbier-all-you-ever-wanted-to-know/

 

[Jayjay1976]

Could you also rule out chilling techniques? Did you use your normal chilling process or did you get a hold of an immersion chiller?

I used my normal chilling routine, recirculating through a DIY copper counterflow chiller. Glad I waited on the immersion chiller, though I still plan to get one so the break material can drop out in still wort.

 

[kpsalerno]

Try getting your wheat malt pre-crushed. I'm too lazy to adjust my mill gap smaller for wheat when it's calibrated for barley malt already, so whenever I order wheat I make sure to specify for the supplier to crush for me. I would also recommend a step mash that includes a protein rest at 120F for 15 min, raise to 146F for 30 min and final rest temperature of 158F for 30 min, I have gotten great results.

 

[Gruel]

Late to the party, but anyways: Congratulations on getting your Hefeweizen mojo back, Jayjay!

It's odd though that you had to turn to an LME kit to get the banana flavor back. Hard to believe that it would be something with the mashing, but I guess it must be.

Apropos mashing: For my wheat beer #4 this year I tried to simplify to a single step mash, but unfortunately screwed up the temperature calculations and mashed at 62C, which of course is about 5C too cold. The Hefeweizen does taste great, but it definitely is a light and slightly dry beer, since I got a starting gravity of only 1.038, compared to my normal 1.05. This one fermented at 16C and slightly below, so the banana flavor is a bit suppressed. It's a very good after-workout rehydrating beer. Even better with the second pint.

Coming back to the subject of extract brewing: For wheat beer #5 I used a $25 ebay coupon (100 years of ebay) to buy 6 lbs of Briess Bavarian Wheat LME. Easiest brew ever (didn't boil the LME, just added a bit of hop tea), and the beer turned out great!
Since I pitched it on the yeast from WB #4, the fermentation took off like gangbusters within a few hours! I caught it just in time to replace the air lock with a blow off tube. Then I left it in the fermenter for another ten days, until I finally gave in to the realization that I would not finish either the Pils nor the WB #4 any time soon, so I bought a third keg ($75 + $11.xx shipping, arrived in one day from AIH in Ann Arbor!).
Very round smooth flavor. I might do more extract brewing!

Sorry about rambling in your thread. I guess you should have closed it...

 

[bracconiere]

Sorry about rambling in your thread. I guess you should have closed it...

MF'r just got 13lb's of oat malt shipped....have it friday, "never delete, never lock!" lol, i'm still a newbie to malting oats, i'm working with ph, i'll try it myself first....but i'm hoping with a few packages, i'll get it worked out....and every glass will pop bananas in his mouth! (sorry if that's creepy, but it's ON topic! lol)

 

[Cool_Hand_Luke]

Thanks @Velnerj ! I attribute the success to brewing with extract, so something must be wrong with my mashing technique. I have used this strain in the past, in fact I had a fresher pouch of it in my fridge but I opted to go with the one that came in my kit and wasn't stored refrigerated. Now I can rule out that one variable, along with the 2 oz. of Saaz that came with it, so make that two variables.

TBH, I'm still frustrated that I can't get there with AG and have to resort to a box mix, but all the same, this little victory has restored my confidence and I have 5 gallons of delicious beer to show for it.

This experiment rules out the following variables:
-wort density
-yeast strain
-yeast freshness
-fermentation temp
-fermentation time (kegged it on day 7)
-fermenter type (PET, Fermonster)
-fermenter geometry
-open vs. closed fermentation
-fermenting under pressure
-wardrobe choice and ambient music (monk robes, chants, etc.)
-freshness of hops
-my brewing mojo in general
-my racking/kegging technique

Any additional thoughts?

Can't recall if you had mentioned techniques described in this thread, but might be worth checking out. Brewing Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma MAY/JUNE 2010 Zymurgy

 

[Jayjay1976]

Can't recall if you had mentioned techniques described in this thread, but might be worth checking out. Brewing Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma MAY/JUNE 2010 Zymurgy

Hey thanks for the link!!

 

[Jayjay1976]

Planning another shot at an AG batch with banana character, this time I'm enlisting the help of Omega's OYL-400 Bananza, a POF- strain that produces plenty of esters. I'm working on the grain bill now; since this is not an attempt at a traditional Hefeweizen I'll be amping up the malt flavors with Victory and Munich.

 

[kartracer2]

I have been tempted to try that also @Jayjay1976 . Once the weather cools a bit and liquid yeast can travel to the middle of nowhere safely, I'll probably order a pouch. I'm always up for a banana bomb.
I'll just be using extract wheat style recipe but I will be waiting for your valued opinion of the yeast.
Cheers,
Joel B.

 

[Cool_Hand_Luke]

Hey thanks for the link!!

For what it’s worth I did follow this for a Hefeweizen I did in the spring and got a good quantity of banana in the finished beer. Here is the mash schedule I used. Used wyeast 3068 for yeast.

Mash Steps

Name	Description	Step Temperature	Step Time
Mash In	Add 30.00 qt of water at 89.1 F	86.0 F	30 min
Mash Step	Heat to 104.0 F over 5 min	104.0 F	30 min
Mash Step	Heat to 162.0 F over 15 min	162.0 F	10 min
Mash Out	Heat to 168.0 F over 10 min	168.0 F	5 min

 

[superiorsat]

Planning another shot at an AG batch with banana character, this time I'm enlisting the help of Omega's OYL-400 Bananza, a POF- strain that produces plenty of esters. I'm working on the grain bill now; since this is not an attempt at a traditional Hefeweizen I'll be amping up the malt flavors with Victory and Munich.

View attachment 742905

Meh! I like Omega but was disappointed with what I got from this yeast and also there Sundew.

 

[Immocles]

Planning another shot at an AG batch with banana character, this time I'm enlisting the help of Omega's OYL-400 Bananza, a POF- strain that produces plenty of esters. I'm working on the grain bill now; since this is not an attempt at a traditional Hefeweizen I'll be amping up the malt flavors with Victory and Munich.

View attachment 742905

I saw that yeast a few months back and really want to give it a try. Especially after my last dunkleweizen fail. I'm just looking for the banana flavors and can't seem to find it after getting lucky on my first extract hefeweizen a few years ago.

 

[bracconiere]

for some reason i'm drinking beer right now and thought of this thread.....

i'm drinking beer that is overwhelmingly bananna bubble gum....i used premiere classique yeast for it, i think that's what did it. and centenial hops lightly....

this is a two for with the same yeast....the yeast is only $30 for a 500g brick...you might be in bananna heaven! lol

personaly, it's SO banannay, i hate it! give it a try every drink is like bananna deep throat!

 

[dmtaylor]

I'm beginning to wonder whether perhaps over-oxidation is the real way to increase banana. I mean like through either oxidized extract, or hot side aeration. Some of the best hefeweizens I have tasted, including my own and from friends, have been from extract. I wonder if all-grain brewers can increase banana by beating the hell out of their hot wort. Maybe one day I'll run a side by side experiment. If anyone else gets to it before I do, please post your results.

 

[bracconiere]

oh, i should add it was a 10 gallon batch and, i only had 17lbs of malt so had to add 3.75lbs of table sugar to it too....

i have read warm ferments and table sugar create fruity flavors.....seems that way! but the clasique yeast, more a round not sharp fruit tone...like bannana....

 

[Velnerj]

I just brewed a rogenbier, which is basically a heffe but with rye instead of wheat. My recipe was about 55/45 rye to barley. The end result was a beer that had quite a combination of banana and cloves, banana getting the slight edge in prominence.

I used mangrove Jack's Bavarian wheat dry yeast. No chill. And fermented in my boil kettle with a temp probe stuck inside between the pot and the lid (open fermentation?) I fermented at 21c for 5 days and raised it to 23c and packaged (keg open transfer) on day 10. Tapped the keg at around day 14.

I'm only mentioning it because all prior attempts to generate this flavor profile have alluded me (though not as exhaustive as OP). But I feel I've hit my jackpot so I'd thought I'd share in case anyone else can learn from my experience.

 

[Jayjay1976]

I just brewed a rogenbier, which is basically a heffe but with rye instead of wheat. My recipe was about 55/45 rye to barley. The end result was a beer that had quite a combination of banana and cloves, banana getting the slight edge in prominence.

I used mangrove Jack's Bavarian wheat dry yeast. No chill. And fermented in my boil kettle with a temp probe stuck inside between the pot and the lid (open fermentation?) I fermented at 21c for 5 days and raised it to 23c and packaged (keg open transfer) on day 10. Tapped the keg at around day 14.

I'm only mentioning it because all prior attempts to generate this flavor profile have alluded me (though not as exhaustive as OP). But I feel I've hit my jackpot so I'd thought I'd share in case anyone else can learn from my experience.

I'll give this a try, I used to buy Roggenbier in Germany, and really enjoyed it.
I brewed another attempt a while back, mostly wheat in the grain bill, then fermented it with Omega's Bananza strain, which supposedly produces only esters without phenolics. The resulting beer turned out under-attenuated and only has a mild banana character. IBUs were too low to balance out the residual sweetness so I ended up with a flabby disappointment.

It's been on tap for a few months, I'll pull a glass every now and then just to check if some aging might improve it. No such luck.

 

[Velnerj]

I'll give this a try, I used to buy Roggenbier in Germany, and really enjoyed it.
I brewed another attempt a while back, mostly wheat in the grain bill, then fermented it with Omega's Bananza strain, which supposedly produces only esters without phenolics. The resulting beer turned out under-attenuated and only has a mild banana character. IBUs were too low to balance out the residual sweetness so I ended up with a flabby disappointment.

It's been on tap for a few months, I'll pull a glass every now and then just to check if some aging might improve it. No such luck.

I suspected my beer had under attenuated as well. The OG was 1.057 and the fg was stuck on 1.017 but apparently that was in the range of expected attenuation for this yeast (70-75%). There's definitely residual sweetness but not cloying so.

 

[Saunassa]

I'll give this a try, I used to buy Roggenbier in Germany, and really enjoyed it.
I brewed another attempt a while back, mostly wheat in the grain bill, then fermented it with Omega's Bananza strain, which supposedly produces only esters without phenolics. The resulting beer turned out under-attenuated and only has a mild banana character. IBUs were too low to balance out the residual sweetness so I ended up with a flabby disappointment.

It's been on tap for a few months, I'll pull a glass every now and then just to check if some aging might improve it. No such luck.

Not sure if I asked this earlier. Sounds like you only keg this. Have you tried bottling a six pack when you transfer to the keg? I tend to get much more banana and clove when bottle conditioned vs force carb in the keg. Perhaps I need to prime in the keg, flush with CO2 and store in basement for a few weeks?

 

[Rfox2014]

Thank you!

A few years later I’m on the quest for my best hefe brew. Has your banana quest been completed?

 

[Hoppy2bmerry]

I watch a talk by a guy from Escarpment he said adding glucose will provide the precursors for the banana which doesn’t fit with the German purity law, but… I haven’t tried it yet.

 

[Jayjay1976]

A few years later I’m on the quest for my best hefe brew. Has your banana quest been completed?

I've temporarily abandoned the main quest in order to explore some dungeons, I'll get back to it eventually.

 

[Jayjay1976]

I watch a talk by a guy from Escarpment he said adding glucose will provide the precursors for the banana which doesn’t fit with the German purity law, but… I haven’t tried it yet.

Glucose you say?
Hell, I ain't above it!