I'm about to give up.

[Bassman2003]

Sorry to hear about your troubles. I have found hefeweizen to be quite a difficult style to nail like in Germany. Are you using RO water or filtered tap in the recipe you listed? Seems like a lot of adjustment additions. You have a lot of suggestions but I think the best approach is to go back to basics and keep it simple.

- Simple water profile (I only use Calcium Chloride)
- 60% wheat & 40% pils. (acidulated malt too).
- IBU to 14-16, single addition.
- Keep your Hoch Kurz mash a;though if your sediment amount is too high with BIAB, do not dough in at 131f. Dough in at 145f as you will get less sediment if the grain starts at gelatinization temps.
- pH at 5.4-5.5 during the mash, add a knockout addition at the end of the boil down to 5.1
- Limit oxygen amounts before pitching
- Pitch normal to a low amount of active yeast.
- Ferment at 62-68f

If this does not work then something else is wrong with the brewing practices. I know this is not an option with your current setup, but the biggest change in my 16 years of trying to make hefeweizen is going low oxygen... That is when the delicate flavors started to show up.

Let us know how it works out. I know it is in there as many try to get away from banana bombs!

 

[tripeland]

Why do you think wheat malt should impart astringency and turbidity? Wheat malt is huskless and besides that extract weizens are made with extract that is made with a large portion of wheat malt in the grist, so why would they be any different from the AG version?

I found that the harder wheat grain powdered more when milled and escaped the bag when mashed, causing a murky wort. As with BIAB, that flour does not get removed before the kettle and gets boiled. I believe that is where that grainy (not in a good way) off flavour came from. I could very well be wrong!
Extract would not have the same problem as I would expect the manufacturer to vorlauf or filter before they boil/turn it into syrup.
These are just my thoughts and I’m sure many brewers have made great weizen with BIAB.

 

[Vale71]

Considering some of my best Weizens are made with decoction, where the grains are boiled for up to 60 minutes, I would not necessarily associate this with any off-flavor.

 

[Saunassa]

So many posts, I got lost reading them all. So did you pick up the hefeweisen extract kit and brew it? I have had great luck with the Hanks from northern brewer, store bought spring water and 3/4 packet of Munich classic sprinkled into the wort. No rehydrate, no oxygen other then shaking my bmb for 29 or maybe 31 seconds and ferment at 66f four days and four at 72.
I do bottle and not keg and have a great banana and clove flavor. Do you bottle or keg? If you only keg then how about filling some bottles? With bottles you can swirl that last ounce of beer/yeast and add it to the glass.

 

[Jocky]

The one thing I haven't seen you do is ferment actually open.

i.e. no airlock or blow off, just put a cloth or other loose covering over the lid of your fermenter until the krausen starts to drop back.

I've found that this brings the most character out of the yeast, be it saison, weissbier or British styles.

Also give it 48 hours on the cooler end of fermentation and then you can bump up the heat.

 

[Vale71]

The one thing I haven't seen you do is ferment actually open.

i.e. no airlock or blow off, just put a cloth or other loose covering over the lid of your fermenter until the krausen starts to drop back.

I've found that this brings the most character out of the yeast, be it saison, weissbier or British styles.

Also give it 48 hours on the cooler end of fermentation and then you can bump up the heat.

The only thing that's going to accomplish is increasing the risk of infection.

 

[Jocky]

The only thing that's going to accomplish is increasing the risk of infection.

From Brewing with Wheat:
"Research in Germany has found that levels of both 4-vinyl-guaiacol and isoamyl acetate increase substantially in open fermenters".

Follow this link to read the relevant section:
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=jc2QAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA110&lpg=PA110
Isoamyl acetate = Banana.

When I'm talking about 'Open', I don't mean entirely open to the elements, bugs, stray cats etc. Cover it so that dust and other particles don't drop into it, but don't put it under an airlock. So stick a bit of foil over your carboy mouth or leave the lid cracked open on your bucket.

You want the fermenter to be able to release CO2 and let in oxygen until fermentation starts to slow (then get it under an airlock).

 

[Vale71]

You want the fermenter to be able to release CO2 and let in oxygen until fermentation starts to slow (then get it under an airlock).

You definitely don't want to let O2 in and an airlock will let CO2 out just as well as a fermenter with no lid on, otherwise it would explode.

"Open fermenter" is a misleading historical definition. What makes the difference is the geometry of the fermenter and not whether it's covered and by what.

 

[Jocky]

You definitely don't want to let O2 in and an airlock will let CO2 out just as well as a fermenter with no lid on, otherwise it would explode.

"Open fermenter" is a misleading historical definition. What makes the difference is the geometry of the fermenter and not whether it's covered and by what.

Always happy to learn, so can you expand on that?

I've seen some yeasts stall mid fermentation when under an airlock, and have seen many brewers claim the openness is essential (Schneider Weisse say the oxygen exposure increases 4vg production). Is this all misleading?

 

[Big Monk]

Always happy to learn, so can you expand on that?

I've seen some yeasts stall mid fermentation when under an airlock, and have seen many brewers claim the openness is essential (Schneider Weisse say the oxygen exposure increases 4vg production). Is this all misleading?

Open fermenters in larger production breweries are going to be shallow, i.e. lots of surface area. Think big squares, rectangles, circles, etc. where the surface area is large but the wort depth is small.

 

[Vale71]

The "stalled fermentation" with an airlock is a hard to kill HB myth that keeps popping up. Yeast has no way of knowing whether an airlock is present or not as the maximum pressure an airlock creates does not exceed 1 millibar, which is less than the daily swings you get due to changing meteorological conditions.
I'm not aware of Schneider making any claims related to oxygen and 4-vinyl-guaiacol production.

 

[Bassman2003]

While open fermentation is not a myth, (photo evidence exists) the brewing industry has largely moved to closed fermentation. Great beers are being made, so I do not consider it to be anything that has to be attempted to achieve a certain result. What it does tell me is that one can be relaxed in terms of having a super seal at the beginning of fermentation. I usually do not put the airlock on until a day passes and temperatures settle.

Historically, the design of open fermenters allowed for easy top-cropping of yeast. I would assume that yeast harvesting was the primary motivation along with any flavors that might appear.

 

[FswBG]

I have been under the impression open fermentation at a homebrew scale was to assist with reducing the amount of pressure in the fermenter which plays a role in ester production. Warm fermented lagers under pressure showcase the effect on reducing fusel and ester character. Wouldn't the opposite be true as well?

 

[Jocky]

I have been under the impression open fermentation at a homebrew scale was to assist with reducing the amount of pressure in the fermenter which plays a role in ester production. Warm fermented lagers under pressure showcase the effect on reducing fusel and ester character. Wouldn't the opposite be true as well?

I agree with @Vale71 that the airlock pressure is insignificant. My view is that open fermentation avoids trapping CO2 in the headspace, and that somehow causes the yeast to under perform or not produce the expected esters.

 

[Vale71]

I have been under the impression open fermentation at a homebrew scale was to assist with reducing the amount of pressure in the fermenter which plays a role in ester production. Warm fermented lagers under pressure showcase the effect on reducing fusel and ester character. Wouldn't the opposite be true as well?

1 millibar of pressure which is what you'll get from a water colum less than 1" in height (which is the case with most airlocks) is not going to make any difference whatsover, believe me.
I know some homebrewers have actually tried implementing traditional open fermentation using some sort of square, shallow container (I believe from the catering industry) but I don't know how succesful they actually were. With that I mean I don't know if it really made a perceptible difference. When dealing with fermentation dynamics size does matter so it's possible that at our scale the difference could be negligible.
I know that I've made some excellent Hefes with my 14g conical Unitank despite the fact that it has the least favorable shape for that, so...

 

[Vale71]

I agree with @Vale71 that the airlock pressure is insignificant. My view is that open fermentation avoids trapping CO2 in the headspace, and that somehow causes the yeast to under perform or not produce the expected esters.

If you were to actually get any oxygen in the fermenting beer all that would get you is off-flavors. Fortunately the Kräusen very effectively blocks oxygen ingress so open fermentation is possible provided you transfer the beer soon enough to a closed, pressurized vessel, that is before the Kräusen falls.
BTW ester synthesis is an essentially anaerobic process so any oxygen that might be present would not affect it in any way.

 

[kpsalerno]

So many posts, I got lost reading them all. So did you pick up the hefeweisen extract kit and brew it? I have had great luck with the Hanks from northern brewer, store bought spring water and 3/4 packet of Munich classic sprinkled into the wort. No rehydrate, no oxygen other then shaking my bmb for 29 or maybe 31 seconds and ferment at 66f four days and four at 72.
I do bottle and not keg and have a great banana and clove flavor. Do you bottle or keg? If you only keg then how about filling some bottles? With bottles you can swirl that last ounce of beer/yeast and add it to the glass.

Notice, again, Hank uses a single 60 min hop addition, no late hops, and is at 0.3 IBU/OG (Jamil recommends an even lower ratio of 0.2 to not overshadow the yeast and malt)

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/2785/6868/t/3/assets/HanksHefeweizen-1564752622796.pdf

 

[kartracer2]

I've been watching this thread because I love me some big banana wheat's. I also love all scientist stuff that's been shared, It's all good to know. But,,,,
@Jayjay1976 , break down, buy a quality extract boxed kit already. It's got to tough to have fall back on the evil extract but if it works,,,,
3068 Wyeast, single pouch, nice and fat, no starter. (I'm going to try Munch Classic next time just for S&G's)
brew like a noobe, high side of the temps, but use your skills to keep it stable.
tap water unless it's really junk. (only you know what's right here)
employ "KISS" best you can.
remember +30% FV volume head space or big blow off tube (maybe both?)
Chant some banana voodoo words (don't ask) as you check on it
see what happens. If it works, "WINNER" + happy SO unit and you know it can be done. (then you can enter tweaking stage)
If not , add it to the list of things tried and failed. Maybe the banana gods won't enter your domicile, who knows.
Best of luck, If I can do it this way, it can't be that hard.

Joel B.

 

[beersk]

I do bottle and not keg and have a great banana and clove flavor. Do you bottle or keg? If you only keg then how about filling some bottles? With bottles you can swirl that last ounce of beer/yeast and add it to the glass.

This is pretty key to getting a lot of that flavor, that yeast in suspension. As soon as you drop that yeast out of suspension, poof, it's gone. It's just too bad bottling is such a pain in the a$$. But I've also brewed great hefes with DME $$$ and only mediocre ones with all grain. So I'm with the OP and others in saying that hefe is not easy to make. My next one I plan to do YOS method for treating my brewing water as well as mash a bit higher pH and acidify near the end of the boil. I also keep my IBUs super low when making hefe, like 10 IBUs.

 

[deuc224]

If anyone has ever had a radler, they will know that the lemon highlights the banana exponentially. Maybe start there.

 

[Jayjay1976]

I'm going to pick up an extract kit and brew it exactly according to the instructions, using RO with a pinch of CaCl and a dash of gypsum. I'm going to chill it with an immersion chiller, then I'm going to aerate it for a bit with an oxygen lance, pitch half a packet of munich classic, and ferment that sucker warm. I'll cover the top with foil until high kraeusen, then replace it with an airlock.

And if that doesn't bring the bananas, I'm going to drop in a pound of circus peanuts. Because I will have bananas in my beer.
I'll name the recipe 'Clown Pianist' in honor of this maddening pursuit.

 

[Snuffy]

https://cdn3.volusion.com/herjp.syepu/v/vspfiles/photos/351879-2.jpg

 

[beersk]

Artificial banana has always been a terrible flavor. Remember the banana popsicles from when we were kids? Nasty

 

[Snuffy]

Artificial banana has always been a terrible flavor. Remember the banana popsicles from when we were kids? Nasty

Banana MoonPies. I still think they're made with sawdust.

They used to throw MoonPies during Mardi Gras when I was a kid. We'd catch the chocolate ones but we always ducked the banana ones. <gak>

 

[beersk]

Banana MoonPies

 

[Jayjay1976]

Artificial banana has always been a terrible flavor. Remember the banana popsicles from when we were kids? Nasty

The artificial flavoring used in circus peanuts and other banana candy is isoamyl acetate, aka isopentyl acetate, the very same compound that gives Weissbiers their characteristic banana aroma and flavor.

It is available in its chemically pure form on teh interwebs as an artificial flavoring, but considering the small amount needed to add that flavor to my beer and the fact that this is only a half serious experiment, I'd prefer to run down to Walgreens for a bag of circus peanuts. Hence the name 'Clown Pianist'; a nod to the circus origins of the candy.

 

[Jocky]

Circus peanuts sound equally as horrible as foam bananas we have in the UK.

 

[kartracer2]

Wow, It's been a long time sense i had circus peanuts but I have a hard time thinking "banana" in the flavor profile. Now you got me wanting to get a bag just to taste. (abet a very small bag). Naw,,,I'll just take your word for it.

Cheers,

Joel B.

 

[Jayjay1976]

Wow, It's been a long time sense i had circus peanuts but I have a hard time thinking "banana" in the flavor profile. Now you got me wanting to get a bag just to taste. (abet a very small bag). Naw,,,I'll just take your word for it.

Cheers,

Joel B.

Yeah they are a weird candy; peanut shaped but containing no nuts, and orange in color though they have a banana flavor.
I personally enjoy them, but I like retro candy. Circus peanuts are one of my favorite penny candies, along with squirrel nut zippers and chick-o-stick.

Hmmmm.... penny candy might be a cool theme for a series of flavored stouts.

 

[Homergah]

Dang Jay! I hadn't been on the forum for some time and the first post I read is this one. I needed a good laugh at 3 this morning. Not to make light of your brewing woes. I can just imagine the judges conversation:
1st judge "Hmmm, that's odd, what do you think?"
2nd judge, "Not one hundred percent sure, but I believe it has a little clown pianist in it"

 

[NitrogenWidget]

Wait, there is still no picture of you around your mash run, dressed as an elf, singing along with monks on a conference call, while playing donkey kong!

Lord of the rings elf or kiebler elf?

 

[Jayjay1976]

Lord of the rings elf or kiebler elf?

Keebler elf up to now, but I could change it up?

 

[Bassman2003]

I hope it goes well for you.

 

[Jayjay1976]

Dang Jay! I hadn't been on the forum for some time and the first post I read is this one. I needed a good laugh at 3 this morning. Not to make light of your brewing woes. I can just imagine the judges conversation:
1st judge "Hmmm, that's odd, what do you think?"
2nd judge, "Not one hundred percent sure, but I believe it has a little clown pianist in it"

I'm looking forward to serving this to friends:

"Which beer would you like?"
"Oh, I'll have another one of that last one"
"It's called Clown Pianist"
"Okay...."
"Do you want more clown pianist?"
"Uh...."
"You have to ask for it by name..."
.........
......
...
"Okay, gimme a clown pianist!"

Maybe I could call the session version "Lil' Clown Pianist" and a HG weizenbock version "Big Clown Pianist"

 

[Jayjay1976]

This will be a lot of fun at family get togethers because my FIL was a part-time clown for many years. I need to come up with a beer I can call "Balloon Animals", maybe a funnel cake pastry stout?

 

[Bobbybob]

There was a great presentation at Homebrew con a couple of years ago about mixed fermentation. In it he talked about Torulaspora Delbrueckii and how it has a feedback loop effect with hef yeast causing 10 to 20 times more banana ester production. They actually thought it was the original German hef “yeast”. This could be a way get the wife to apologize for insulting your beer fu.
Other names for beers could be “12 inch clown pianist”, or maybe “Mister Giggles nuts”...

 

[Home_alone1]

You really need to give WLP-300 a try , I know someone else posted it and I know it’s supposed to have an equivalent but I have made a lot of Hefeweizen and I find 1 pack of WLP-300 per 5 gal at 66 degrees gives me lots of banana. Good luck with the quest !

 

[kartracer2]

@Jayjay1976 , until you find your personal isopentyl acetate nirvana, just let this rattle around in the gray matter till you do. One of the best story tellers of all time, felt your pain.

It could be worse,,,RIGHT?
Cheers,
Joel B.

 

[TheCache]

..., break down, buy a quality extract boxed kit already. It's got to tough to have fall back on the evil extract but if it works,,,,
3068 Wyeast, single pouch, nice and fat, no starter. (I'm going to try Munch Classic next time just for S&G's)
brew like a noobe, high side of the temps, but use your skills to keep it stable.
tap water unless it's really junk. (only you know what's right here)
employ "KISS" best you can.
remember +30% FV volume head space or big blow off tube (maybe both?)

I think you're on to something here. 3rd extract kit (Brewers best) I brewed was a Wiezen: 2 cans of wheat LME, 2 ozs Saaz hops (60 & 30 minutes), and T-58 Salafe yeast (known for its " intense fruity and phenolic flavors – especially banana, clove and peppery notes."). It was in the late winter in Iowa so I put it upstairs to ferment. This was before I knew much about fermentation temps so I just let it run. It peaked at 75 on the fermometer, but was mainly 70-72 for a few days. Also, did know much about priming sugar quantities so gave it the full 5 ozs.

I thought the beer was drinkable, but by then I was learning so I knew there were some off flavors likely related to the high fermentation temp. However, my wife still says its her favorite!

I have been watching this thread knowing that I will have to make it again someday and hoping that I would learn to get the banana flavor on purpose rather than blind noob luck.... now I think that may have been the secret ingredient...

Enjoy the chase

 

[Jayjay1976]

Sounds like it may be easier to get the banana flavors by brewing with extract, but the instructor at my LHBS turns out fantastic AG hefeweizens that to me are almost indistinguishable from the fresh examples we drank in Germany.