IIPA Recipe Suggestions Grains

[HeavyKettleBrewing]

Hey all. Hope your playoff Sunday is filled with good brew and friends. I am preparing a recipe and would like some input from others out there. I have already ordered from NB the following for a hop bursting IIPA.

Centennial 2oz
Amarillo 2oz
Summit 2oz
Dry Hopping variety TBD

Wyeast 1272 American Ale

I am looking for a citrus/fruit hops profile with enough malt backbone and sweetness to counter the bitterness from the centennial. I am thinking Pale 2 row base, Caramel 60 for color and sweetness, and carapils for the head. If anybody has tried Squatters Hop Rising, I am looking for similar flavor but only have a 5gal MLT (round Rubbermaid) to work with. I can get 12lbs of grain into the mash with about 3.5 gal strike water @152 degrees. I'll sparge to get to 5.5 gal pre boil. Topoff when cooling wort to ferm temp to get 5 gal after boil and hop additions. I have most of my routine set and working for me just need advice on late hop additions (when/how much) and any specialty grains outside of the base.

Cheers

 

[Grizzlybrew]

I'm not sure if I'd use the cara-pils in an IIPA. I think one of the plaguing problems of bad IIPA's is that they are too thick and too malty for their own good. Cara-pils should build body, but I think I'd use flaked barley for head retention if that were even a concern in an IIPA. FWIW, I'd keep it simple and full of fully fermenting grains to help dry the beer out.

As far as late hops, I would repeat some of the hops you are using earlier to help carry the flavor and aroma throughout the beer. If anything, I would add some Fuggles (yuck) or EKG (yum) to add some earthiness and complexity to the citrus bomb you have planned. I'm a fan, but it can become one note in a hurry.

When you say "hop bursting IIPA", do you mean it's bursting with hoppiness or that you are using the hop-bursting method of bittering your beer? If it's the former, it may be a bitter bursting ale rather than a hoppy one. A quick calculation of your listed hops, puts a 1.078 beer at 328 IBU's!!!

 

[HeavyKettleBrewing]

I'm not sure if I'd use the cara-pils in an IIPA. I think one of the plaguing problems of bad IIPA's is that they are too thick and too malty for their own good. Cara-pils should build body, but I think I'd use flaked barley for head retention if that were even a concern in an IIPA. FWIW, I'd keep it simple and full of fully fermenting grains to help dry the beer out.

As far as late hops, I would repeat some of the hops you are using earlier to help carry the flavor and aroma throughout the beer. If anything, I would add some Fuggles (yuck) or EKG (yum) to add some earthiness and complexity to the citrus bomb you have planned. I'm a fan, but it can become one note in a hurry.

When you say "hop bursting IIPA", do you mean it's bursting with hoppiness or that you are using the hop-bursting method of bittering your beer? If it's the former, it may be a bitter bursting ale rather than a hoppy one. A quick calculation of your listed hops, puts a 1.078 beer at 328 IBU's!!!

328 BTU's!!! That's enough to bring back the dead! I intend to use the hop bursting method and correct me if I am wrong but Hop Bursting is the act of late hop additions to your wort. I have made several batches of IPA and many without much hop flavor and aroma. I am going to dry hop this batch making the total volume of hops to 8oz. I am trying a different hop schedule and if you have advice on where to plug in EKG, I'll add it. Here is my intended schedule:

Centennial 1oz 60min
Centennial 1oz 30min
Amarillo 1oz 15min
Amarillo 1oz 10min
Summit 1oz 5min
Summit 1oz flameout
Dry Hopping variety TBD (once racked to secondary for two weeks)

Yes, agreed on the grains and will study up on flaked barley as opposed to cara pils. The Caramel 60 was more for color and a hint of toffee flavor. Only going to use 8oz.
Thanks for the feedback. Always trying to brew a better beer!

 

[Grizzlybrew]

That schedule (again assuming a 1.078 wort), gives you 115 or so. Putting ALL of your listed hops at 15 min, still gives 89 IBU's. Do you have any software to play around with the recipe? I'd probably add EKG around 15 and 0 min.

 

[HeavyKettleBrewing]

Do you have any software to play around with the recipe? I'd probably add EKG around 15 and 0 min.

I have yet to purchase any software. Once I gain a better understanding of the science aspect, I'll break down and buy something. Only been brewing for 5 months, still refining my process. I am sure that my LHBS has EKG as they seem to always have it. I am going to give it a try and add it at the end. I am taking your advice on the grains as well but would ask that you can tell me how much flaked barley to use in lieu of carapils? I typically throw in a half pound of carapils in all my batches. Never thought about it lending any flavor or body to the beer. Typical grain bill for my MLTwould look like this:

10# base malt
2# special/caramel/roasted malt and sometimes corn!

Cheers!

 

[ibulover]

I have to disagree with Grizzlybrew. The key to a great IPA or Double IPA is balance. You will gain balance from mouth feel/texture. Carapils is a MUST in a big beer, especially with the amount of IBU you are going for. Remember that your first addition is for bitterness (60 min, sometimes 90), second addition is for flavor (30 min) and the final as well of of boil is for aroma. Good selections in the varieties. I would also consider Simcoe, Citra and even Cascade. These hops are good at all additions. Another way to add balance is with your ABV. of you are going for a Double IPA, go 7.5 plus. For a regular IPA you can go for 6 to 7.5. For some great examples, lookup the last few years of winners in the GABFEST or World Beer Cup in these activities. I guarantee you that all these beers have great balance and mouth feel. Another great source that I think may interest you greatly for you thirst for big beers is to look at past winners of the Alpha King Challenge. One of my favorites is Hop 15 by Pizza Port (Tommy Author) and Avery IPA. Pizza Port also makes another Double called Wipeout at 10.5% ABV, but not as well balanced IMO.

 

[Piratwolf]

There seem to be two camps on the big IPA, and both are here. The head brewer at Avery was interviewed in the Jamil Show, arguing that a DIPA should be a dry and relatively thin hop bomb, while an IIPA should be bigger all around. Not sure that's standard, but I like the theory. If you like a bigger mouthfeel, go with carapils; if not, the flaked.

Now about those hops: I have bailed on 30 mi additions unless I'm cloning something that requires them. 30 mins seems to be a hybrid of bittering & flavor. Since you're looking for a hop burst approach, do your 60 min, then move everything else to 15 and later. My standard is 60-15-5, but you could go with 15-10-5-1, especially if you don't chill your beer quickly (the hot stand will continue to use hops a bit as the temp slowly drops).

 

[phenry]

The best DIPA that I've brewed so far (IMHO of course) used an oz of Amarillo for FWH, enough Warrior at 60 min to bring the IBUs to around 110, and then a blend of 4.5 oz of hops at flame out and another 4.5 oz for dry hopping.

 

[heckels]

I have yet to purchase any software. Once I gain a better understanding of the science aspect, I'll break down and buy something. Only been brewing for 5 months, still refining my process. I am sure that my LHBS has EKG as they seem to always have it. I am going to give it a try and add it at the end. I am taking your advice on the grains as well but would ask that you can tell me how much flaked barley to use in lieu of carapils? I typically throw in a half pound of carapils in all my batches. Never thought about it lending any flavor or body to the beer. Typical grain bill for my MLTwould look like this:

10# base malt
2# special/caramel/roasted malt and sometimes corn!

Cheers!

Check out brewtarget. It's free software that does nearly everything beersmith can do. I downloaded the free trial of beersmith and found myself liking brewtarget better.

 

[geer537]

I have a different understanding of 'Hop Bursting' than the OP. I have done a few DIPA with Cascade and Nugget. I start with 2 oz of Nugget at 20, 2 oz Cascade at 15, 10, and 5, 1 oz Cascade at 0 and 1 oz to dry hop.

Maybe I totally misunderstood but I thought while hop bursting, you completely skip the 60 minute addition and do everything at 20 and below? Regardless the recipe looks solid and if they put everything at 15 and later as suggested, they would still have 89 IBU's. I use Vienna in my IPA and have experimented with Victory. Sounds like this should come out fine IMO.

 

[heckels]

I have a different understanding of 'Hop Bursting' than the OP. I have done a few DIPA with Cascade and Nugget. I start with 2 oz of Nugget at 20, 2 oz Cascade at 15, 10, and 5, 1 oz Cascade at 0 and 1 oz to dry hop.

Maybe I totally misunderstood but I thought while hop bursting, you completely skip the 60 minute addition and do everything at 20 and below? Regardless the recipe looks solid and if they put everything at 15 and later as suggested, they would still have 89 IBU's. I use Vienna in my IPA and have experimented with Victory. Sounds like this should come out fine IMO.

I agree, at least based on jamil's description of hop bursting.

 

[dcp27]

Carapils is a MUST in a big beer, especially with the amount of IBU you are going for.

carapils is NEVER a must for anything, and almost always unnecessary

Maybe I totally misunderstood but I thought while hop bursting, you completely skip the 60 minute addition and do everything at 20 and below? .

this is the correct use of hop bursting. the OPs schedule is just a normal staggered IPA

 

[HeavyKettleBrewing]

I have to disagree with Grizzlybrew. The key to a great IPA or Double IPA is balance. You will gain balance from mouth feel/texture. Carapils is a MUST in a big beer, especially with the amount of IBU you are going for. Remember that your first addition is for bitterness (60 min, sometimes 90), second addition is for flavor (30 min) and the final as well of of boil is for aroma. Good selections in the varieties. I would also consider Simcoe, Citra and even Cascade. These hops are good at all additions. Another way to add balance is with your ABV. of you are going for a Double IPA, go 7.5 plus. For a regular IPA you can go for 6 to 7.5. For some great examples, lookup the last few years of winners in the GABFEST or World Beer Cup in these activities. I guarantee you that all these beers have great balance and mouth feel. Another great source that I think may interest you greatly for you thirst for big beers is to look at past winners of the Alpha King Challenge. One of my favorites is Hop 15 by Pizza Port (Tommy Author) and Avery IPA. Pizza Port also makes another Double called Wipeout at 10.5% ABV, but not as well balanced IMO.

When referring to the style, is an IIPA a double or an Imperial? I have often referred to the double as IIPA and believed the Imperial just another name for it. Also seen it referred to as DIPA. As you can see, I am just getting my feet wet in the home brewing circles. I appreciate the feedback and do want balance in the beer. My goal is to get something close to Squatter's Hop Rising which is unavailable in CA. My next brew will utilize Simcoe and Citra, both hard to find locally. Thanks for the response, I need to rethink my grains.

 

[HeavyKettleBrewing]

Now about those hops: I have bailed on 30 mi additions unless I'm cloning something that requires them. 30 mins seems to be a hybrid of bittering & flavor. Since you're looking for a hop burst approach, do your 60 min, then move everything else to 15 and later. My standard is 60-15-5, but you could go with 15-10-5-1, especially if you don't chill your beer quickly (the hot stand will continue to use hops a bit as the temp slowly drops).

I want the bittering effect but have lost much of the flavor profile in past boils having used too little and too early in the boil. Trying to remedy it this time around and intend to add the last bit at flameout due to the fact that I chill in an icebath and not a wort chiller. Hoping to gain some more aroma while cooling. Typically takes 20min to get to ferm temp. I'm taking notes on everyones advice so I can knock this one out of the park!

 

[HeavyKettleBrewing]

carapils is NEVER a must for anything, and almost always unnecessary



this is the correct use of hop bursting. the OPs schedule is just a normal staggered IPA

Will I still retain bittering qualities by adjusting my hop schedule to coincide with the 20min start and gradually adding hops until flameout or am I only gaining flavor and aroma? Should I mix the hops at each addition?

 

[heckels]

Will I still retain bittering qualities by adjusting my hop schedule to coincide with the 20min start and gradually adding hops until flameout or am I only gaining flavor and aroma? Should I mix the hops at each addition?

You'll definitely get the bitterness, you essentially just need more hops as you won't get as much utilization in a shorter time period.

The simplest way to do this is by using software, bought or open source as mentioned above, and adjusting the amount of hops to hit your IBUs. You can also do it by hand using the formula from Palmer.
http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter5-5.html

 

[Piratwolf]

I would also add that there's often a difference (at least before one gets the process down) between calculated IBUs and measurable IBUs. Some software don't calculate for flameout, but that's only accurate if you can drop the temp quickly. If you add at flameout but have a slow chilling process, your flameouts are essentially 5- to 10-minute additions or more.

 

[HeavyKettleBrewing]

Thanks to all for the advice. I have been studying up based on everyone's comments and will have nailed down the recipe by Friday. I am brewing on Sunday morning and then relaxing for the games in the afternoon...with beer in hand!!!

How long is too long to chill wort. I always thought that 20min was adequate. I can always freeze a gallon of bottled water to top off post boil. This has helped before in the past. I have already made the decision to go with a true hop bursting method starting at 20min. No dry hop, everything going into the boil. Still deciding on whether to add 8oz caramel 60 or trying vienna. I do want a balanced beer so I will be adding 8oz carapils. Total grain volume is 12#. Suggestions on whether to mix the hop varieties during the additions?

 

[Piratwolf]

Thanks to all for the advice. I have been studying up based on everyone's comments and will have nailed down the recipe by Friday. I am brewing on Sunday morning and then relaxing for the games in the afternoon...with beer in hand!!!

Nice! Sounds like a sweet weekend!

How long is too long to chill wort. I always thought that 20min was adequate.

20 mins is great. Used to take me 45+ before my CFC!

 

[HeavyKettleBrewing]

20 minutes in an ice bath while stirring to bring temp down. I know that it's best to keep a lid on it but I usually let my spoon sit in the boiling wort for the last minute before transferring to ice bath to help keep it sanitary. Figured that you can't keep the brew pot completely covered with a wort chiller any way. Going to be a good weekend, I'll post pics on Sunday along with recipe details. Thanks to everyone for the help.

 

[flabyboy]

I just made a big IPA with OG 1.081. I used the grain bill from NB double IPA kit. It consisted of Maris Otter, crystal 120 and Belgian caramel pilsner. I upped the crystal to .75 lbs to add a bit more color and body. It dried out to 1.011. If you are dry hopping and using a higher lovibond crystal malt, you should have no problems with head retention. Skip the carapils and add a little darker crystal IMO

 

[dcp27]

No dry hop, everything going into the boil. Still deciding on whether to add 8oz caramel 60 or trying vienna. I do want a balanced beer so I will be adding 8oz carapils.

since its a IIPA, you really should be still dry hopping. its tough to get that kinda hop nose without it. plus some of the aromatics are so volatile that you'll get a different aroma dry hopping, so it'll add a level of complexity to the nose. if you're already adding crystal, theres no need for the carapils. all cara malts add body/head retention, not just carapils. carapils only use is to add body/head retention without adding extra flavor/color, you can do the same by mashing a lil higher. also, hops add to head retention so theres no reason to add something for it in an IIPA

 

[ChillWill]

93% Maris otter, 7% Munich worked really well for me.

You really don't want to be adding much in the way of crystal, the big grain bill will ensure you have sufficient residual sweetness and some sort of balance.

If you don't dry hop, kittens will die.

 

[flabyboy]

There seem to be two camps on the big IPA, and both are here. The head brewer at Avery was interviewed in the Jamil Show, arguing that a DIPA should be a dry and relatively thin hop bomb, while an IIPA should be bigger all around. Not sure that's standard, but I like the theory. If you like a bigger mouthfeel, go with carapils; if not, the flaked.

Now about those hops: I have bailed on 30 mi additions unless I'm cloning something that requires them. 30 mins seems to be a hybrid of bittering & flavor. Since you're looking for a hop burst approach, do your 60 min, then move everything else to 15 and later. My standard is 60-15-5, but you could go with 15-10-5-1, especially if you don't chill your beer quickly (the hot stand will continue to use hops a bit as the temp slowly drops).

I listened to this podcast recently. He gave out the recipe for the Maharaja, which many of us would consider an Imperial IPA at 10.1 %. That beer is supposed to finish at 1.014 which is relatively dry for a beer that big

 

[HeavyKettleBrewing]

since its a IIPA, you really should be still dry hopping. its tough to get that kinda hop nose without it. plus some of the aromatics are so volatile that you'll get a different aroma dry hopping, so it'll add a level of complexity to the nose. if you're already adding crystal, theres no need for the carapils. all cara malts add body/head retention, not just carapils. carapils only use is to add body/head retention without adding extra flavor/color, you can do the same by mashing a lil higher. also, hops add to head retention so theres no reason to add something for it in an IIPA

Point taken, I was not aware that hops had that effect. I have yet to try Vienna, so I am torn between trying it or using some caramel 60. What variety of hop for dry hopping that will not give off too much of a grassy flavor?

 

[flabyboy]

The grassy or vegetal taste usually occurs when you leave the beer on dry hops too long. Leave it on no more than a week and more like 5 days and you should be good. The varieties all depend on what you are looking for. I wanted a citrus/tropical fruit bomb so I used Amarillo and Citra for my late additions and dry hops

 

[HeavyKettleBrewing]

Last time I dry hopped I left it in secondary for two weeks. May have been a bit much but I read about homebrewers adding hops to their keg and leaving it in there for the life of the keg...then again, my beer never lasts more than a week!

 

[Grizzlybrew]

I'm a little late with this, but the thread just took off!

...how much flaked barley to use in lieu of carapils?

They're not exactly interchangeable as they do different things (as I understand it). In fact, in an IIPA, I don't think either are needed. There is going to be so much malt in this beer, there's not really a need to try and bulk it up.

I have to disagree with Grizzlybrew. The key to a great IPA or Double IPA is balance. You will gain balance from mouth feel/texture.

I agree with having a balanced beer. My point is that (from my experience) a lot of home brewers have trouble keeping their IIPA's from being cloying or TOO thick in the mouthfeel from under-attenuation. Seeing that the OP is from Cali, I would almost assume he prefers a drier IPA and IIPA.

...Carapils is a MUST in a big beer, especially with the amount of IBU you are going for. ...

...For some great examples, lookup the last few years of winners in the GABFEST or World Beer Cup in these activities. I guarantee you that all these beers have great balance and mouth feel.

Sorry. These beers probably have a nice balance, but the top comment is crazy. Do you think all these winners use cara-pils in their recipes? No. They know how to mash correctly to obtain the finished mouthfeel they want. And, many of them are probably single infusion, so it's nothing you can't do at home.


edit:
BTW... +1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 to dry-hopping. No way around it. It needs to be there.

 

[HeavyKettleBrewing]

Looks like everyone is a dry hop advocate. I may have let my last batch sit too long in teh secondary. I think one week in secondary should lend enough aroma and flavor. Definately using whole hops over pellet when dry hopping.

 

[flabyboy]

Pellets work fine too. I just cold crash and wrap a nylon mesh bag around my auto siphon when racking