Identical grain weight, vastly different OG

[Zepth]

So I am nearly done my monster brew day. Last batch is cooling in the bath right now. I am perplexed. For those following my every post you know my plan has been to make a base malt comparison for science, changing only the malt to keep the comparison legit. So the bill goes as follows:
4 kg (8.8 lb) 2 row or vienna
0.125kg (about 1/4 lb) cara pils (I can't keep any head on my beer thus far)
Strike 170F
Mash 150F 45 min
Pull bag, let drip. No squeeze no sparge. (Used drippings from both for batch 3)
Get it boiling - took forever on my stove. Apartment style condo. No propane.
60 min boil
0.5 oz Goldings @ 30, 15
0.3 oz Goldings @ 0 (had 4 oz for 3 batches, math FTW)
Cool in cold water
Fail at whirlpooling (Not the intention, oh well)
Rack to carboy, take gravity pitch rehydrated yeast.

Now the part I don't get. The 2 row batch got me an OG of 1.050. Not the greatest at 60%. Considering there was no effort made to get extra wort from the spent grain by squeezing or sparging I'll take it. The vienna? A measly 1.036 @ 45%. Same timing and temps for everything, I dedicated the whole day to this endeavor. I realize that there is a limit to extraction of different grains, but according to an online calculator it would have been perfect feasible to get the exact same numbers from these malts.

I'm not worried, and having some homebrew. But puzzled. I just don't get why things went so different when so much effort went into keeping it as close to identical as possible. Looks like I'll have a good sessionable one at the end of this all. Any thoughts or theories on this?

 

[schematix]

did you check for conversion? vienna can self convert but it does have significantly less diastic power than regular 2-row. you may have needed longer than 45 minutes.

 

[Beernik]

2 Row is about 37ppg, Vienna is about 35ppg. The Vienna should give you less but not that much less.

My guess is that it's a process problem. I'd start with the no squeeze - no sparge. Vienna might be more resistant to giving up its sugars.

 

[Beernik]

I just did a diastic power calculation because I was worried about not having enough enzymes in a future brew. I think Schematics got it right.

American 2 Row has 120L
Vienna has 50L.

The lower the number, the longer it takes to convert.

Also, I switched to torrified wheat for heading. It works better for me than Carapils did. Also, if you wash your glasses in the dishwasher, make sure you don't use any rinse agent (like jet dry).

 

[Zepth]

Ah, the iodine test. You know those times you're thinking to yourself "self, you're forgetting something important." Yeah, one of those moments. The brew must go on!

My guess is that it's a process problem. I'd start with the no squeeze - no sparge. Vienna might be more resistant to giving up its sugars.

The sole reason I did this method was to try and get three batches of beer from 2 grain bills. With the way things went I think I'll give it a while before these fancy techniques. For the foreseeable future, it's all squeeze-n-sparge.

I just did a diastic power calculation because I was worried about not having enough enzymes in a future brew. I think Schematics got it right.

American 2 Row has 120L
Vienna has 50L.

The lower the number, the longer it takes to convert.

Also, I switched to torrified wheat for heading. It works better for me than Carapils did. Also, if you wash your glasses in the dishwasher, make sure you don't use any rinse agent (like jet dry).

That would do it. Unfortunately my condo is not equipped with a dishwasher at the moment. Trying a good scalding water rinse on glasses with some success, no detergent at all. I seem to get the best results from frosted glass combined with room temp beer.

I was thinking of using wheat for head retention. I've got a 55lb bag of it from G&P right beside me at the moment. I'm just waiting on my shipment of gamma lids to open it up and have somewhere proper to store the unsealed content. Don't want to risk anything getting in there. When I'm a little more set up I shall do that.

Lessons learned:
Be certain to have all equipment and testing devices available
Read into diastics a little more
When in doubt mash longer
Leave advanced techniques for advanced brewers

Thanks all.

 

[Beernik]

The upside of all grain is it gives you more control. The down side is there are more ways to screw up. I don't know that there is anything advanced about it, though. It's just one more thing to check.

I always mash at least for an hour. I've never really had a problem with any grain bill converting in about an hour.

This is only time I have checked the diastic power of a grain bill. It's a rye-weizen is that it will only be 40% base malt. The rest of it is wheat and rye. It's my first beer that isn't at least 50% base malt and I got nervous.

But one of the side benefits of checking the diastic power of your grain bill is that it will give you an idea of how long your mash will take. The higher the number, the faster it will go because there are more enzymes to chop up the starches. The lower the number, the longer it takes.

But it's also mash temperature dependent because that determines which enzymes are working.

My rye-weizen should have an L ~ 58*. Which probably means 75 minutes at a low mash temp. (below 150F) or 60 minutes at a high mash temp. If I wanted to shorten it, I could substitute or add some 6 Row for the Pilsen I'm using.