Ideal pre and post boil PH

[jambop]

I’ve never seen pH fall .3 during any of my 90 minute boils.

Me neither I have seen usually a drop of 0.1-0.2 over a 90 min boil using my Grainfather kit. However pH for me is very misleading for mash liquor, I only go by alkalinity which varies depending on beer type but I am of the opinion that if you get the alkalinity of your brew liquor right you can forget all about pH. each to their own as they say.

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

Me neither I have seen usually a drop of 0.1-0.2 over a 90 min boil using my Grainfather kit. However pH for me is very misleading for mash liquor, I only go by alkalinity which varies depending on beer type but I am of the opinion that if you get the alkalinity of your brew liquor right you can forget all about pH. each to their own as they say.

I agree about alkalinity of brew liquor before you mash in, but doesn't the PH reading after mashing matter and then making adjustments in the boil etc become relevant?

In other words the alkalinity of strike water impacts the mash PH. But after the mash is done the alkalinity becomes less relevant as everything has already been buffered

The starting PH of the strik water isn't as essential as the Alkalinity though I agree

Although I'm not a chemist and rely on Bru'n water. Bru'n water tends to not really care as much about strike water PH as alkalinity as far as I can tell

 

[jambop]

I agree about alkalinity of brew liquor before you mash in, but doesn't the PH reading after mashing matter and then making adjustments in the boil etc become relevant?

In other words the alkalinity of strike water impacts the mash PH. But after the mash is done the alkalinity becomes less relevant as everything has already been buffered

The starting PH of the strik water isn't as essential as the Alkalinity though I agree

Although I'm not a chemist and rely on Bru'n water. Bru'n water tends to not really care as much about strike water PH as alkalinity as far as I can tell

I maybe could have explained my brew liquor better. I use a water calculator as well
Firstly I make my brew liquor at the correct alkalinity for the mash but I also add Calcium and magnesium salts to get the correct balance for my chosen beer style of course these salts also add Sulphate and Chloride. After mashing is over I sparge with liquor that is only adjusted to the correct alkalinity and add the salts directly to the boiler.
If we look at the great brewing nation Germany, much revered on this site as far as I can see, they get by with only malt, hops, yeast and water ... I think if you can make a brewing liquor to mimic the approximate ionic characteristics of those of a chosen beer style eg. English Bitter, German Lager or Czech Pilsner pH and meters are not needed . However the Hi-Fi brewer must have his day

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

I maybe could have explained my brew liquor better. I use a water calculator as well
Firstly I make my brew liquor at the correct alkalinity for the mash but I also add Calcium and magnesium salts to get the correct balance for my chosen beer style of course these salts also add Sulphate and Chloride. After mashing is over I sparge with liquor that is only adjusted to the correct alkalinity and add the salts directly to the boiler.
If we look at the great brewing nation Germany, much revered on this site as far as I can see, they get by with only malt, hops, yeast and water ... I think if you can make a brewing liquor to mimic the approximate ionic characteristics of those of a chosen beer style eg. English Bitter, German Lager or Czech Pilsner pH and meters are not needed . However the Hi-Fi brewer must have his day

My understanding is that Germans use Sauergut to adjust post boil PH & acidulated malt to adjust Mash PH which abide by the Reinheitsgebot. What matters in the end though is how your beers taste. If your process is working and you are happy with the results, no need to rock the boat.

http://www.germanbrewing.net/docs/On_Brewing_Bavarian_Helles_v3.pdf

 

[jambop]

My understanding is that Germans use Sauergut to adjust post boil PH & acidulated malt to adjust Mash PH which abide by the Reinheitsgebot. What matters in the end though is how your beers taste. If your process is working and you are happy with the results, no need to rock the boat.

http://www.germanbrewing.net/docs/On_Brewing_Bavarian_Helles_v3.pdf

I knew they used acid malt but was unaware of the cultured lactic acid wort. The German brewers certainly used their collective brains to get around some of the hurdles posed by the beer law.

 

[mac_1103]

I think the point is that if you adjust the water chemistry correctly the pH will be what it's supposed to be, right? Saying that you don't need a pH meter is not the same as saying that pH doesn't matter.

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

I think the point is that if you adjust the water chemistry correctly the pH will be what it's supposed to be, right? Say that you don't need a pH meter is not the same as saying that pH doesn't matter.

I generally agree that you can rely on calculators to dial in your mash PH for lighter colored beers empirically without a meter. I did this for years and my lighter colored beers were still great.

However for darker beers due to greater variability in how the roasted grains effect PH, I didn't start brewing great ones until I got a PH meter. So far years, I just stuck to lighter styles.

More recently, I've been fine tuning and gotten into making acid adjustments after the boil and after dry hopping. For the post fermentation dry hops adjustments you could rely on taste and a calculator so a PH meter isn't as crucial. For the post boil adjustments its a little more crucial.

Also, I like having the PH meter to take notes on where beers ended up so I have it for future reference and can adjust if I didn't hit a target, or if I feel that target left something to be desired.

I cannot recommend enough using lactic acid at dry hopping (especially large dry hops) to bring the PH down. I've found this greatly combats hop burn and the acidity helps the citrus and tropical flavors of the hops pop. I've seen PH increase as much as 0.1 from a large dry hop

Adjusting boil PH is a little newer to me which is why I've started following this thread

 

[mac_1103]

Of course, saying that you don't NEED a pH meter is also not the same as saying that pH meters are useless.

 

[jambop]

"I think the point is that if you adjust the water chemistry correctly the pH will be what it's supposed to be, right? Saying that you don't need a pH meter is not the same as saying that pH doesn't matter."

I don't think anybody did say pH does not matter and what is the right pH ? The correct pH is going to fall into a pH range. Using alkalinity you can hit that range without knowing the pH of your brewing liquor

Of course, saying that you don't NEED a pH meter is also not the same as saying that pH meters are useless.

Beer must have been awful before pH meters came along... eh no actually. For the avoidance of doubt I never said pH meters were useless or pH does not matter. Rather I made the point that if you have the alkalinity of your brewing liquor right a pH meter is not really needed your mash will be in the right pH range. If I had the choice between a pH meter or an alkalinity testing kit I would take the testing kit it tells you more about you brewing liquor than a pH meter does at the most important point of the brewing process.... before you start to do anything . I do have a pH meter I definitely have no reliance on it though. As I said each to their own.

 

[VikeMan]

I agree the starting point should not be mash liquor pH, which is essentially irrelevant. But mash liquor total alkalinity also is not enough information by itself. The reason is that Calcium and Magnesium in the water also affect mash pH. As an example, you could have two different waters with 100 ppm Total Alkalinity as HCO3, as follows (ppm). I'm omitting other balancing ions for clarity:

Water 1...
Ca: 10
Mg: 1
Alkalinity as HCO3: 100

Water 2...
Ca: 100
Mg: 10
Alkalinity as HCO3: 100

With a given grain bill, these two waters will result in very different mash pH. There's no getting around it. If you want to be able to predict mash pH (and adjust accordingly) for a given grain bill, you need to know Calcium, Magnesium, and Total Alkalinity.

Now, you can learn from experience how to adjust alkalinity to hit "within range" mash pH with various grain bills and your water. But for someone with substantially different water (even if is has the same total alkalinity as yours), your hard earned data/method (i.e. adjust alkalinity down to "X") will not work.

 

[mac_1103]

Using alkalinity you can hit that range without knowing the pH of your brewing liquor

Which is exactly the point I was trying to make, so we do not disagree.

For the avoidance of doubt I never said pH meters were useless or pH does not matter.

I was just trying to make sure that no one thought I was saying that.

 

[jambop]

I agree the starting point should not be mash liquor pH, which is essentially irrelevant. But mash liquor total alkalinity also is not enough information by itself. The reason is that Calcium and Magnesium in the water also affect mash pH. As an example, you could have two different waters with 100 ppm Total Alkalinity as HCO3, as follows (ppm). I'm omitting other balancing ions for clarity:

Water 1...
Ca: 10
Mg: 1
Alkalinity as HCO3: 100

Water 2...
Ca: 100
Mg: 10
Alkalinity as HCO3: 100

With a given grain bill, these two waters will result in very different mash pH. There's no getting around it. If you want to be able to predict mash pH (and adjust accordingly) for a given grain bill, you need to know Calcium, Magnesium, and Total Alkalinity.

Now, you can learn from experience how to adjust alkalinity to hit "within range" mash pH with various grain bills and your water. But for someone with substantially different water (even if is has the same total alkalinity as yours), your hard earned data/method (i.e. adjust alkalinity down to "X") will not work.

Indeed true . That is where your known domestic water analysis comes into its own, a water calculator would be hopeless without it. My water analysis is only the average figure given out by my water supplier but I estimate the alkalinity of my brew water before I brew so I know that the alkalinity is near enough spot on however Calcium, Magnesium, Sulphate, Sodium and Chloride are going to be taken from the average though so any adjustments are going to be close but maybe not spot on. To be honest my primary concern is alkalinity because I know the other ions are going to be close to what I need after additions.

 

[mac_1103]

I estimate the alkalinity of my brew water before I brew

What is your method for this?

 

[Bassman2003]

I think the point is that if you adjust the water chemistry correctly the pH will be what it's supposed to be, right? Saying that you don't need a pH meter is not the same as saying that pH doesn't matter.

I do not know if that is a correct statement. If one has soft water and does not need to add much in the way of salts for a lager, are you saying the mash will just be at the "correct" pH? In my experience it will be a bit high. No worries if you do not want to buy or use a pH meter but people do use them to dial in the correct pH. All too often convenient methods are spoken as if equal to the "right" methods which involve measurements and proven performance etc...

There is a reason folks revere the German brewers, because they have learned to do all of the right things!

 

[jambop]

What is your method for this?

I claim no credit for this as I communicate with a fellow Brit about brewing and he put me on to Salifert water testing kits. These are actually marketed for tropical fish aquarium water chemistry maintenance but the total alkalinity kit is perfect for brewing liquor testing. Using this kit in conjunction with 10% Hydrochloric acid I can change the alkalinity to the desired concentration in ppm.

 

[jambop]

I do not know if that is a correct statement. If one has soft water and does not need to add much in the way of salts for a lager, are you saying the mash will just be at the "correct" pH? In my experience it will be a bit high. No worries if you do not want to buy or use a pH meter but people do use them to dial in the correct pH. All too often convenient methods are spoken as if equal to the "right" methods which involve measurements and proven performance etc...

There is a reason folks revere the German brewers, because they have learned to do all of the right things!

With respect the pH of the brew liquor is not going to tell you much about the potential buffering effect of the ions in the brewing liquor.

 

[Bassman2003]

I did not say anything about brew liquor alone. Yes, buffering is all that matters, not starting water pH. I was painting a picture of getting the alkalinity "in line" and still having a question mark about the resulting pH. From your posts, it sounds like you are focusing on alkalinity and leaving the pH to fall in to place.

 

[mac_1103]

it sounds like you are focusing on alkalinity and leaving the pH to fall in to place

Assuming that you do know the alkalinity with reasonable accuracy and make the appropriate adjustments to the water chemistry, why wouldn't the pH fall into place? And don't a lot of brewers do this experiment pretty much every time they brew? (i.e., make water adjustments, start mash, check pH, note that pH is where you wanted it to be.)

 

[Bassman2003]

I was leaving out acid additions thinking they did not fall into adjustments for alkalinity. Just salts alone is the impression I got.

Yes, if you try for a pH target without a meter that is going to be pretty close for the most part with the help of advice and software. I do not think a meter is crucial, but the awareness of your pH is important. Same thing you were saying.

 

[jambop]

I did not say anything about brew liquor alone. Yes, buffering is all that matters, not starting water pH. I was painting a picture of getting the alkalinity "in line" and still having a question mark about the resulting pH. From your posts, it sounds like you are focusing on alkalinity and leaving the pH to fall in to place.

That is about right. After all if you use a typical alkalinity for your style of beer you expect the pH on mashing the crushed grains with the liquor to be in the correct range as it has been done many times before. It is only my opinion but there is little point in measuring the pH of the brew liquor it just does not tell you anything about the ability of the liquor to buffer the effect of the acidity of the crushed malt. Of course I could be way off the mark but as I say I do have a pH meter and normally check and note the pH of my mash and I have yet to have a pH that is not in the right range for making a good efficient mash and final wort... conversely I never check the pH of my brewing liquor but I do estimate alkalinity and add acid to give the required alkalinity for the style of beer though.
One other thing about pH meters having worked in labs all my working life I have never trusted the sort of hand held meter that most home brewers use as I just do not think they are accurate but if you spend a lot of cash you can get a decent hand held meter.

 

[VikeMan]

It is only my opinion but there is little point in measuring the pH of the brew liquor it just does not tell you anything about the ability of the liquor to buffer the effect of the acidity of the crushed malt.

I agree with this. But it almost seems like you're putting up a strawman? I dont know anyone who measures the pH of their water (for mash pH purposes). Is someone saying they do?

 

[Bassman2003]

Rather I made the point that if you have the alkalinity of your brewing liquor right a pH meter is not really needed your mash will be in the right pH range.

I think a lot of wires are being crossed in this thread. You say you work in a lab and have a pH meter that is used to measure your mash pH. Then why this statement? Alkalinity plays a role but it does not determine pH in the end. The grist alone has plenty of variables. Close yes. Alkalinity might be more important to end flavor than pH though.

It is my view that pH kind of plays a technical role throughout the brewing process. It lets other processes do well or poorly based upon its own range. In the end, aim for good alkalinity, a mash pH of 5.5-5.6 and an end boil pH of 5.1-5.3 and you will be golden. Easy, rinse and repeat.

 

[jambop]

I don't work at all and never have done for more than 12 years but prior to that I spent my entire working life in Pharma research. The fact is true I do have a pH meter it is also true that I do measure my mash pH but I do that out of good practice to see how different styles of beer give a slightly different mash pH for given alkalinity and to see if I am getting a variation in mash pH even though I have done the brew many times . However I do stick by my statement if the brew liquor alkalinity is right for the style of beer I would rather be armed with and alkalinity testing kit than a pH meter every time because in my opinion you cannot use a pH meter to ensure the mash pH is going to be in the right range for your chosen beer style.
But most importantly where in that statement does it say not to make a pH reading ? It only states that if that if your brew liquor alkalinity right you don't have one it is not going to be a problem you will be in the right pH range.

 

[jambop]

I agree with this. But it almost seems like you're putting up a strawman? I dont know anyone who measures the pH of their water (for mash pH purposes). Is someone saying they do?

Yes well I see what you are saying. I was think more along the lines of if you know nothing about your water how can you get to a mash within the pH range ? I am assuming some may measure their brew water pH and reduce this if it is thought to be too high or use the measured pH in some sort of calculator? I suppose trial and error could get you there?

 

[Bassman2003]

I don't totally disagree with you as alkalinity is a powerful tool. I think the wording is just a little loose in some posts. I just have grown tired over the years of lose concepts being repeated as brewing facts just because the topic spoken about is born form convenience. This just distorts homebrewing practice and gets newer brewers to think they are doing this well when they are not so much. No big thing.

Your statement says not to make a pH reading because how can you if you do not need to have a meter?

 

[jambop]

I don't totally disagree with you as alkalinity is a powerful tool. I think the wording is just a little loose in some posts. I just have grown tired over the years of lose concepts being repeated as brewing facts just because the topic spoken about is born form convenience. This just distorts homebrewing practice and gets newer brewers to think they are doing this well when they are not so much. No big thing.

Your statement says not to make a pH reading because how can you if you do not need to have a meter?

I said
"Rather I made the point that if you have the alkalinity of your brewing liquor right a pH meter is not really needed your mash will be in the right pH range."
That is saying " if you don't have a meter don't worry if you set you alkalinity right the pH will be in the right range"
a new brewer may very well not have a pH meter... in fact a new brewer may not know the importance of having the pH within a certain range.

 

[Yesfan]

I've been following the thread (lengthy read), so in summary, can you say......

Ideal Mash Ph should be: 5.4-5.6?
Ideal Pre-boil Ph should be: 5.2-5.4?
Ideal Post-boil (pre-ferment) should be: 5.0-5.2?
Ideal Post-ferment should be: 4.0-4.4?

The last few brews I've done have been "meh" to say the list, so I'm trying to tweak and see what it is. I try to shoot for a mash Ph of 5.4, but if I'm in at 5.2-5.6, I roll with it. Truth be told, after that I never bother with Ph pre-boil onwards. After this thread, I'm hoping maybe this is something that's caused my mediocre beers.

The other thing that bugs me is brewing salts. I feel like less is ideal here as well. For a given range of a salt addition, is it better to be in the low end amount (what I do), mid point, or high end amount of an addition? Also, is it better to add those additions straight to the water before adding the grist or right after doughing in (what I do)? I know I've asked this before and apologize if any of you answer it a second time. The past couple of years as a brewer, I've hit a brick wall I can't get over.

 

[Bassman2003]

Yes, those are good targets. (pH is measured at room temps for those numbers). I add my calcium chloride and gypsum to the milled grains. Acids go into the strike water.

Mediocre is a tough one. Focus on water (source of water, alkalinity & pH), yeast health and brewing process (try for clear wort through the whole brew day). I have been trying to get the mud out over the years to make focused, bright tasting beers.

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

"I think the point is that if you adjust the water chemistry correctly the pH will be what it's supposed to be, right? Saying that you don't need a pH meter is not the same as saying that pH doesn't matter."

I don't think anybody did say pH does not matter and what is the right pH ? The correct pH is going to fall into a pH range. Using alkalinity you can hit that range without knowing the pH of your brewing liquor


Beer must have been awful before pH meters came along... eh no actually. For the avoidance of doubt I never said pH meters were useless or pH does not matter. Rather I made the point that if you have the alkalinity of your brewing liquor right a pH meter is not really needed your mash will be in the right pH range. If I had the choice between a pH meter or an alkalinity testing kit I would take the testing kit it tells you more about you brewing liquor than a pH meter does at the most important point of the brewing process.... before you start to do anything . I do have a pH meter I definitely have no reliance on it though. As I said each to their own.

I've been following the thread (lengthy read), so in summary, can you say......

Ideal Mash Ph should be: 5.4-5.6?
Ideal Pre-boil Ph should be: 5.2-5.4?
Ideal Post-boil (pre-ferment) should be: 5.0-5.2?
Ideal Post-ferment should be: 4.0-4.4?

I'd recommend downloading Bru'n Water if you aren't already using it.

You're gonna get a ton of varying opinions on here, but I think I really like Roberts post where he went through the ideal ranges for the various stages

For many years, I've brewed great beers by targeting Mash PH only. Adjusting preboil and post boil PH is a bit more advanced and only something I've been messing around with lately.

If adjusting Mash PH only, this is what you should target :

Crisp or Lighter styles: 5.2 to 5.3 (hazy IPAs, saisons, heffeweizen, wits I'd go 5.2. Pilsners, Blond Ales, Old School IPAs or things you may want to accentuate the malt a bit go 5.3). Now if you do acidify preboil or post boil, then you could mash higher on these styles, but again that's a bit more advanced and complicated.

Stouts or very Roasty beers you wanna aim 5.4 to 5.6.

5.3 to 5.4 is a good middle of the road number for most styles. Brown Ales or maltier things 5.4 is good.

In terms of salt additions, it really depends on style:

Most beers you want to get 50ppm of Calcium. The final Sulfate and Chloride content is then where you can refine thing a bit. Sulfate has a drying perception and Chloride has a malty perception.

I feel like IPAs and extremely hoppy beers are really the only styles where going extra heavy on the mineral content is worthwhile (> 100ppm sulfate)

For darker styles hitting your target PH and Calcium of 50ppm with minimal sulfate should be the goal. This generally means adding baking soda to lower PH and a touch of calcium choride to hit > 50ppm to <100ppm calcium. Skip gypsum or salts that increase Sulfate (likelEpsom) all together in these types of beers unless you are going hoppy. You don't want a drying effect from the Sulfate as roasted malts already have a drying effect.

For most other styles hitting 50ppm calcium should be one of the main goals. For very delicate things like pilsner you generally want softer water, so adding a touch of calcium Chloride to is all you should need to hit that calcium level. However if you are brewing a hoppy or extra crisp version of a lighter style going as high as 100ppm Sulfate can be desirable to give a drying sensation and help the hops pop

Bru'n water has some great preset target water profiles (yellow balanced, yellow dry, yellow malty etc)

***everything I'm saying here assumes you start with very soft water or reverse osmosis water. If you live on the east coast Poland Spring works really well if your tap source is too hard or you don't have access to RO filtered water. ***

You are best off mixing the salt additions to strike water. Solubility is more reliable when added to the water. For acid adjustments in the mash I like using acid malt as it's less of a hassle to measure than lactic acid. Lactic acid may be a touch more accurate, but probably insignificant

 

[Yesfan]

@Unicorn_Platypus You mention 5.4-5.6 for stouts and roasty beers. I have also read where the roasted grains are held back and added to the mash the last 15 or 30 minutes (can't remember which) to reduce astringency. Would holding back those grains also be recommended if you're shooting for a mash Ph of 5.4-5.6? I've used Bru'n water before. I like it, but I've gotten used to Brewfather here lately.

I think the next few batches going forward I'm going to focus on just the mash ph as you're suggesting and the calcium additions that @Bassman2003 suggested. I'll just keep track of the pre-boil, post-boil, and post fermentation measurements for the next few batches for now to see if that might need to change.

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

@Unicorn_Platypus You mention 5.4-5.6 for stouts and roasty beers. I have also read where the roasted grains are held back and added to the mash the last 15 or 30 minutes (can't remember which) to reduce astringency. Would holding back those grains also be recommended if you're shooting for a mash Ph of 5.4-5.6? I've used Bru'n water before. I like it, but I've gotten used to Brewfather here lately.

I think the next few batches going forward I'm going to focus on just the mash ph as you're suggesting and the calcium additions that @Bassman2003 suggested. I'll just keep track of the pre-boil, post-boil, and post fermentation measurements for the next few batches for now to see if that might need to change.

I used to do that (hold back roasted grains) before I learned about using baking soda to increase the PH and also before I really had a better foundational knowledge on PH.

However, now that I add baking soda I find that process unneccesary (and also less precise to hit proper PH). Furthermore the PH can still drop significantly even from adding the roasted grains at the later stage. So while it probably wouldn't be as acrid/hash if you had added them the whole duration it's still not as ideal as just simply getting your mash PH under control with the roasted grains.

Its much easier to dial things in by just adding them for the whole duration with the baking soda IMO

Brew father is very good as far as I'm aware, but its not quite as specialized as Bru'n water is my understanding. Try entering the recipe in both calculators and see which one gets you closer. No calculator is perfect