IDEA: Ultimate Mash Tun

[mr x]

This is sounding neat. I'd love to see a pic if you have one.

I am thinking about trying this slightly differently. I was thinking about coming in the side of the tee with the steam and using a small mesh disc to diffuse the steam. Won't be as much surface area, but may work just the same

 

[Bobby_M]

I've had people question my methods of infusing boiling water for mashing out and it's potential for tanin extraction and my answer has always been that I mix it so quickly that it only stays that hot for 30 seconds. Now I wonder about steam injection and how hot it is coming out of the ports. It seems to me that unless you're really getting a good stir, some spots of the mash could reach 220F+. Any concerns there?

This is fun engineering an all but I still like the simplicity of direct heat, constant recirculating MLTs. What batch size are you aspiring to Yuri?

 

[pjj2ba]

I wonder how much mixing you would need. You are basically talking about the same thing as the frother on a espresso machine, but delivering it from the bottom. I would think there would be enough bubbles to give you decent mixing as long as your mash is not too thick. You might have a bit of a problem though getting the steam to come out of your manifold evenly with more coming out where it first enters the kettle. Seeing as how you will be using a false bottom you are less concerned about the filtering efficiency of the manifold. I would have fewer openings (or smaller ones) close to the steam source, and more further away to get more even steam distribution. I'd do a bunch of testing with compressed air. Maybe even some other cheap material to make a test manifold as long as it has the same ID to experiment with opening placement.

Going along with the frothing attachment analogy. When the barristas use this, they don't scorch the milk! Steam is only 212F, no different than boiling water. I has a lot more energy though being a gas, that is why it burns so bad. The only way to get steam over 212F is to pressurize it.

My only concern would be pockets of excessive heat that might denature your enzymes. A slow mix might be enough to take care of that though. I'd be tempted to go with something on the order of 10 RPM or less. If you put your mixer paddles at a fairly steep angle, more like a fan blade that may help to prevent compaction.

What I would like someday is a steam jacketed pot. I keep an eye out at auctions, restaurant going out of business sales, etc. hoping to find a reasonably priced one.

 

[Bobby_M]

I'm aware that steam at ambient is only 212 but when you use a pressure cooker, it is under pressure and probably closer to 230F. Does it immediately cool down to 212 as soon as the pressure is released? I'm not worried about scorching so much as denaturing enzymes in the direct line of fire.

 

[Yuri_Rage]

I'm looking at 15-18 gallon batches with this system.

The steam will be 230 to 240 degrees F (see the link in my signature about steam).

With regard to denaturing enzymes - I've been using a steam manifold system in my cooler mash tun for at least 5 brews now, and I've achieved 80% efficiency or better each time.

I slept on a few of these ideas, and the suggestion of steam injection through the stirring paddles is looking more attractive. It's probably not as difficult as it seemed at first.

I just bought a heavy duty AC gear motor that runs 80 RPM. I'll use a gear, chain, or pulley drive system to get greater than a 2:1 reduction for stirring the mash. I think 30 RPM or less should do nicely.

I'm now contemplating plumbing this thing with a steam mixer as well as direct steam injection. Again, I'm looking for maximum flexibility while keeping things reasonably simple. I know it's beginning to seem complex (or maybe seemed that way from the start), but so far all of the ideas are quite manageable with the tools I have at hand.

 

[Philip1993]

FWIW, Steam is 243* at 12psi. I don't know about your plumbing, but I can create 12psi of head with 6ft or so 3/16 vinyl tubing....

 

[mr x]

I wonder how much mixing you would need.

My only concern would be pockets of excessive heat that might denature your enzymes. A slow mix might be enough to take care of that though. I'd be tempted to go with something on the order of 10 RPM or less. If you put your mixer paddles at a fairly steep angle, more like a fan blade that may help to prevent compaction.

What I would like someday is a steam jacketed pot. I keep an eye out at auctions, restaurant going out of business sales, etc. hoping to find a reasonably priced one.

It's been my experience with the steam manifold that you need a fair bit of mixing. I'm just waiting for my local junk purveyor to put a clearance on a windshield wiper motor and that's what I plan to use. I intend on using aluminum fan blades as well. Maybe even a combination of different diameters and pitch.

Your steam jacket idea has me thinking. Maybe I'll just get 8 feet of 1/2"ss tubing, line it with 1/4" ss tubing, and wrap it into a coil. Swagelok fittings will work nice to put steam through the 1/4" tube while wort recircs through the outside (DIY CFC style in reverse). Might alleviate some fears I have of steam directly into the wort...

 

[Yuri_Rage]

EDIT: I hate when I come off too harsh. This post was about to be a thread killer. My apologies. Carry on.

 

[ohiobrewtus]

EDIT: I hate when I come off too harsh. This post was about to be a thread killer. My apologies. Carry on.

you freaking jerk. :cross:

 

[kladue]

Here is a picture of the swagelok tees that have the boiler temperature, mixer, and leaving wort temperature probe, with flow from right hand side to left side.
http://picasaweb.google.com/kevin.ladue/SteamRimsBrewingEquipment/photo#5042307368146252114

 

[sudbuster]

EDIT: I hate when I come off too harsh. This post was about to be a thread killer. My apologies. Carry on.

You're kidding, right? This is your thread, pay no attention to detractors, some of us are all ears. Whip out the TIG and let's get welding........

 

[Cede]

Your idea looks very interesting but I'm afraid you could blow your wort.

Last week end I talked about steam mashing with a pal, because I'm about to rebuild my little brewery.
He's a master brewer with diplomas and so on from Germany so I think he knows what he's talking about.

About the false bottom evrything's fine, it looks like it's far more better than any other filtering method.
About steam, he warned me about scorching the wort even if the steam is not overheated, because heat transfer is greater than with water, it could harm enzymes and so on.
From his point of view, you have to recirculate while heating with steam.

After all those warnings, he agreed that nothing's better than build and see

The only drawback to your system is how to recirculate wort while injecting steam.

The idea of concentric tubing is great but you could separate steam input and steam output by doing alternatively one ring for steam another one for wort.

I might try that

well these are just my thoughts.

You're doing great job

 

[eddie]

Instead of using paddles, wouldn't it be simpler and just as effective to use something like a spiral mixer set-up?

 

[Yuri_Rage]

Your idea looks very interesting but I'm afraid you could blow your wort.

I already use steam quite effectively, actually. There's a link in my signature.

As for the spiral mixer idea - how exactly is that simpler? I want to get the outer paddles as close to the outside of the mash tun as possible while keeping the inner paddles somewhat overlapped with the outer ones so that I stir the entire mash very effectively. Designing a spiral that large seems like a nightmare to me...

 

[Cede]

Yep, I know you use it for a certain time now, and it's because of you that I'm going to use steam for my new setup

I might be to afraid of ruining wort by overheating....

 

[eddie]

As for the spiral mixer idea - how exactly is that simpler? I want to get the outer paddles as close to the outside of the mash tun as possible while keeping the inner paddles somewhat overlapped witht the outer ones so that I stir the entire mash very effectively. Designing a spiral that large seems like a nightmare to me...

At the time I made the suggestion, I was thinking that using a single tube of copper formed into a spiral would be easier to form and use than forming and plumbing half a dozen paddles attached to a shaft. I hindsight, it does seem to be rather foolish. I think any tubing available in coil stock would be too soft to stand up to the pressures and would twist and break in the mash and making something out of 1/2 pipe would be more labor intensive than using the paddle design to begin with.

It was just an idea. Unfortunately, a very bad one.

 

[kladue]

Is the design of the paddles going to robust enough to do the initial dough in or just enough to stir the mash after. Are you using continous steam feed during steps or cycling the steam in 15-30 second steps to try to reduce localized overheating during the mixing and reduce the rate of temperature rise and overshoot.

 

[Yuri_Rage]

Is the design of the paddles going to robust enough to do the initial dough in or just enough to stir the mash after. Are you using continous steam feed during steps or cycling the steam in 15-30 second steps to try to reduce localized overheating during the mixing and reduce the rate of temperature rise and overshoot.

My intent is that the paddles and motor will be strong enough to stir the mash at any point in the process (including dough-in).

Only time will tell what the best method of steam injection is. I like the idea of short bursts, kladue - that seems like an excellent method if I find that constant injection creates overshoot or scorch issues.

 

[nabs478]

Looks like a fun project.

My only concern is that it looks like you have a lot of paddles, that have a big area. Its hard to see whether they are slanted or vertical in your picture, but if they are vertical, and are as big as you have pictured, I would be a little worried that they will rotate the whole mash, rather than stirring it.

 

[Grimsawyer]

Ever since I saw Kladue's system and marvled at it's complexity I've thought about direct steam injection. It dosn't have to be overly complicated with switches gauges and flow meters(oh my!). I have some gear to go before I make the leap but It could be done as easily as instead of moving my wort through my HERMS coils run it from the pump through a "steam injection T" and right back into my mash tun after running through some kind of thermometer(maybe another T, wort comes in one side temp probe goes in another and wort comes out the 3rd port) 11 minutes from 130*F to 156*F without taking the wort above 156*F... no brainer there AND it is nice and quiet. No popping or snapping! I don't have any way of generating steam as of yet and I'm getting tired of tweaking my brewery. Just want to brew enough to be prepared for when the zombies come... (which is important after all) I need to get a CC wort chiller, an oxygen tank, stirr plate and a new fridge or chest freezer first. AFTER that... I might be playing with my brewery again and when I do I'm going that route for absolute sure. :rockin: Although a way to stirr my mash other than my giant SS spoon wouldn't be a bad thing either.

 

[LouT]

I already use steam quite effectively, actually. There's a link in my signature.

As for the spiral mixer idea - how exactly is that simpler? I want to get the outer paddles as close to the outside of the mash tun as possible while keeping the inner paddles somewhat overlapped with the outer ones so that I stir the entire mash very effectively. Designing a spiral that large seems like a nightmare to me...

Are you fitting to an existing mash tun? If not, find a snowblower, use the auger (or 1/2 of the auger) and gearbox from it, build your mash tun to fit the o.d. of the auger. Easier than building spiral mixer from scratch, although not stainless steel.

I was actually curious when I read the first post of this thread, as to why the paddles are necessary vs. some simpler means of mixing - recirculating pump with perhaps a vortex effect to keep the entire wort moving gently without aeration...
Am I missing something?

What I see as the downside to your paddle system (or even spiral mixer) is complexity: large # of parts, need for a 3 or more legged bearing support that attaches/detaches to the top rim of the mash tun, possible belt or gear reduction from motor to axle of mixer, etc. What about a system that "agitates" the mash tun by moving it briefly counterclockwise, then clockwise, etc., and you could put some fixed vanes on the inside of the mash tun? Simpler but hopefully same end result... You might even be able to use a used washing machine for a bunch of components...

 

[Grimsawyer]

Are you fitting to an existing mash tun? If not, find a snowblower, use the auger (or 1/2 of the auger) and gearbox from it, build your mash tun to fit the o.d. of the auger. Easier than building spiral mixer from scratch, although not stainless steel.

I was actually curious when I read the first post of this thread, as to why the paddles are necessary vs. some simpler means of mixing - recirculating pump with perhaps a vortex effect to keep the entire wort moving gently without aeration...
Am I missing something?

What I see as the downside to your paddle system (or even spiral mixer) is complexity: large # of parts, need for a 3 or more legged bearing support that attaches/detaches to the top rim of the mash tun, possible belt or gear reduction from motor to axle of mixer, etc. What about a system that "agitates" the mash tun by moving it briefly counterclockwise, then clockwise, etc., and you could put some fixed vanes on the inside of the mash tun? Simpler but hopefully same end result... You might even be able to use a used washing machine for a bunch of components...

YEAH!!! Retrofit a WASHING MACHINE!!!!!!!! WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!! man, spin cycle would ROCK FOR SPARGING!!!!!!!!!!!!:rockin: :rockin: :rockin: :rockin:

 

[WBC]

Yuri. Just do your thing. You will have good results.

(1.) The only thing I can see right off that might be a problem is with that many paddles the whole mash mass may spin as one. You will just have to experiment with this.

(2.) The excess heat below the strainer is the other problem but again you will have to experiment as no one has enough experiance to predict the outcome beforehand.

 

[Skrimpy]

Ill test one too! If you don't send me one post the plans so I can build one!

 

[Skrimpy]

Not to bring up old subjects here but I think maybe if you are worried about getting good mixing or not getting enough steam because the manifold is setting below the false bottom you could add a second manifold. Instead of trying to engineer steam injections through the paddles why not put the second manifold for steam injections between the paddles (of course leave enough room between them so they don't catch on it)?

 

[Yuri_Rage]

Keep the ideas flowing. I have a bunch of my own along with incorporating some already posted. I'll definitely post pics, but this is going to be a little expensive, so it might take a while (but not as long as those damn conicals I've been sitting on!).

 

[kladue]

I am a bit curious as to what you are going to use the steam mash system for, protien rests, step up from starch conversion to dextrine production temps, mashout?

 

[Yuri_Rage]

I am a bit curious as to what you are going to use the steam mash system for, protien rests, step up from starch conversion to dextrine production temps, mashout?

All of the above!

 

[Whiskey]

You would probably need a somewhat powerful motor torque-wise to spin the paddles slowly through the wet grains. Neat idea though.

 

[Yorg]

Hi folks,
I have been working on a steam system myself.
My approach to mixing is to use a 'prop' style mixer whose diameter is about 2/3 to 3/4 the diameter of the tun. This rotates to push the mash down in the centre of the tun, leaving it nowhere to go when it hits the false bottom but up the sides, around the top and back through the centre again. The object, obviously, is a very good mix.
I use a rotisserie motor, which revolves at about 15 rpm. Given four blades on the prop, the effective rpm is 60 rpm. This I believe will be enough to not scorch / negatively affect the mash.
Two 1/2' copper tube prongs descending vertically from the lid of the tun, and diametrically opposed, deliver steam from a pressure cooker through a steam valve which is controlled by a PID controller.
Thermometer is in a regular thermowell in the side of the tun, half way around the tun between the two prongs.
Still prototyping with water, but will post when I've done a mash trial - hopefully within the next two weeks.
Cheers,
Yorg.