IC questions

[HollisBT]

So after a little bit of thought and consideration, I have decided to ditch my idea of using a plate chiller, and have decided to go with an immersion chiller for my brew system. And after a bit of shopping around online, I have decided to try and make one, but I have a few brief questions about materials to use.

Does the copper tubing diameter have a significant difference? I can get 50' of 1/4" tubing for a good bit less than I can get 3/8" tubing. I know that the smaller tubing would have less surface area, but would this make a significant difference in performance?

Also, how long does the chiller need to be? Is 20' of copper tubing long enough? Or should I go with the 50' coil? OR, should I go with the 50' coil cut in half and make a two stage chiller with a pre-chiller for better performance?

Any input here would be greatly appreciated

 

[OneHoppyGuy]

Larger surface area = more effectiveness
you want at least 3/8" preferably 1/2"
What size kettle (how much) are you trying to chill?

 

[HollisBT]

I am making a kettle out of a half barrel keg, going to be doing 5 gallon batches for right now, possibly 10 gallon in the future.

 

[krduckman]

So after a little bit of thought and consideration, I have decided to ditch my idea of using a plate chiller, and have decided to go with an immersion chiller for my brew system. And after a bit of shopping around online, I have decided to try and make one, but I have a few brief questions about materials to use.

Does the copper tubing diameter have a significant difference? I can get 50' of 1/4" tubing for a good bit less than I can get 3/8" tubing. I know that the smaller tubing would have less surface area, but would this make a significant difference in performance?

Also, how long does the chiller need to be? Is 20' of copper tubing long enough? Or should I go with the 50' coil? OR, should I go with the 50' coil cut in half and make a two stage chiller with a pre-chiller for better performance?

Any input here would be greatly appreciated

My 25' 3/8 in. works fine for a 5 gallon batch.

 

[JohnnyO]

Agree with above. You need to use at least 3/8" diameter tubing. The 1/4" tubing restricts the flow of the water too much so that it effects efficiency greatly. I use a half barrel for my boil. I use a 50' immersion chiller that has 1/2" diameter tubing. I got mine from morebeer.com. They sell a recirculating arm that aids in the chilling. I picked that up too and it has been doing an excellent job on my 10 gallon batches. You should definitely make/buy a 50' chiller if you ever plan on doing 10 gallon batches.

 

[HollisBT]

Alright, guess I will stick with the 3/8" copper tubing, I was just looking to save a little bit of cash, but might as well do things right .

What would be the recomended length for the chiller? Is using a pre-chiller going to be that much more efficient compared to having more length in the kettle? FWIW I will likely be connecting this to my kitchen sink, and using a length of plastic tubing to reach outside. Or I might spend the money for a submersible fountain pump and I could recirculate ice water from my mash tun through the chiller...

 

[subliminalurge]

Larger surface area = more effectiveness

Don't forget that the larger tubing also puts a larger volume of cooling water into the wort at one time. This works hand in hand with the larger surface area by providing more water to absorb more heat.

With a 1/4" tube you could easily have the cooling water heated to the same temp as the wort within the first few feet, negating the benefit of the rest of the tubing. Of course, as the wort cools down, more and more of that length will become useful.

Just saying that bigger is better for several reasons, not "just" surface area.

 

[HollisBT]

Excellent point, I hadn't thought about it that way. Is it worth it to consider 1/2" tubing? I have read that it is much harder to bend though... And price wise I would imagine that I would only buy 25' of it as compared to 50' of the 3/8". I can't imagine that the extra 1/8" would make that much of a noticeable difference though.

 

[subliminalurge]

Given the price difference, I would be inclined to go with 50' of 3/8".

The speed at which the heat transfers depends on the difference in temp between the wort and the cooling water. At the end of cooling when the wort is getting close to pitching temps that extra length will really help those last few degrees go faster.

I haven't done the math, but I'm reasonbly comfortable making the statement that 50' of 3/8" is going to have both larger surface area and larger internal volume than 25' of 1/2". I'm not really in a "math mood", so if that's incorrect I'll leave it for someone else to call me out on it.

 

[Golddiggie]

I have to ask, why did you decide to not go with a plate chiller?? With the IC, you need to move the wort around it, or it in the wort, to get decent chill times. With a plate chiller, you don't have that issue. If you just leave the chiller sitting there with water running through it, it won't chill nearly as well/fast. Unlike a plate chiller or CFC.

For reference, my brew buddy is using a ~20' 3/8" copper IC (I made it) to chill about 5 gallons of boiling wort to pitching temps. This past Friday, his chill time was about 30 minutes (with actively moving the IC in the kettle). Using the same water source (I actually use the hose faucet, he uses the kitchen sink/faucet) I was able to get to about 62F in under 15 minutes (closer to 12)... I recirculated through the plate chiller (Rebel Brewer ChillHog 4000 40 plate chiller) to sanitize about 5 minutes before flame-off. We then started the chilling water feed, and I recirculated into the kettle for about 5-8 minutes before changing over to feed the fermenter (without the pump). The ball valves in the kettle and on the chiller were wide open the entire time. I was able to get the wort from boil to ~70F in the ~8 minutes it was recirculating.

A side benefit of using a plate chiller (as well as CFC) is that you get to leave the lid ON the kettle while you chill. Zero chance of anything falling into the wort as it cools that way. Even with recirculating, the opening in the lid is minimal. I'll probably end up installing a fitting in my kettle so that I can keep the lid fully closed while recirculating/chilling.

For the record, my absolute best time to chill 5 gallons of boiling hot wort to ~66F was about 10 minutes, WITH a 50' 3/8" IC, in the winter. For some reason, the 50' 3/8" copper tubing sold at Lowe's is thicker wall than the 20' section, so it's much harder to bend/form. I wouldn't even think about trying that again unless I had machinery to do it.

I've also added QD's to my plate chiller setup. I have two [female]on the wort side, with a male on the RebelSmart where it goes into the chiller, and a female on the ball valve output side. This allows me to turn the valve assembly as needed, as well as remove it when back-flushing the chiller. It doesn't take much to get fittings to make things much easier on you...

 

[day_trippr]

Plate chillers aren't without issues. They get plugged up, they need to be scrupulously cleaned, they need pumps to be effective, and unless you're recirculating in the kettle and following that with a whirlpool rest, they invariably pull all the break material into the fermenter.

Fwiw, putting the lid on a kettle of hot wort is probably not a great idea, as until the wort temperature drops below ~140°F the lid is trapping any residual DMS that would otherwise disperse...

Cheers!

 

[subliminalurge]

I have to ask, why did you decide to not go with a plate chiller??

I can't speak for the OP, but I know I've considered getting a plate chiller and everything I've read says you really need to use pumps to make them effective. Pumps are not a trivial purchase, those things are a bit pricey.

And it's really not that big of a hassle to keep the wort moving around an IC for 15 minutes while chilling. Certainly not a big enough hassle to make $500 worth of new chilling gear seem very attractive.

Now, for someone with a single tier brew rig set up who already has pumps anyway, then a plate chiller starts to make a lot of sense. But for those of us still relying on gravity, well, I could build one super badass IC for the price of a decent pump.

 

[Golddiggie]

day_trippr, really?? Maybe because I bag my hop pellets in the boil I don't have an issue with plugging the chiller. You can use a plate chiller with gravity feed, if you don't want to sanitize with a recirculation of boiling wort (which is easier). A sound PBW soak, and good rinse cleans them out really well. I did an additional rinse and shake this last time to get EVERYTHING out of mine. All it takes is a bit of intelligence, and being observant and you'll be fine.

I use a hop spider (my own creation) which prevents the lid from sealing. So DMS isn't an issue since it CAN disperse. Besides, the 1/2" ID silicone tubing is stuck in there too (I used a spring clamp to hold it in position on Friday).

IMO, the positive aspects of the plate chiller far outweighs any negative aspect you can think up (only talking about real ones, not theoretical). The negatives of using an IC far outweigh any potential negatives of a plate chiller.

BTW, the first few times I used my plate chiller, I didn't have a pump at all. I simply connected it up to the kettle ball valve and adjusted the wort flow rate so that my temp into fermenter was where I wanted it to be. I got the pump to also allow me to recirculate the wort in the mash tun (keg conversion).

IF you're serious about going to next levels of brewing, there are certain things, IMO, you'll want to get, or be able to do. Having a March (or Chugger) pump makes those possible.

Had I known how plate chillers work, or how effective they are, earlier I would have actually saved a significant amount of money by NOT going with/building IC's.

BTW, you can also use the pump to run PBW through the plate chiller to help get EVERYTHING out of it. Then run rinse water through it. Very effective. Especially since you can run it in both directions to make SURE it's clean.

 

[day_trippr]

I'm actually agnostic wrt chillers, but it pains me to see people pushing expensive solutions when cheaper ones work just fine. So, what "negatives" are there wrt an IC?

Set one in the BK with ~10 minutes left in the boil and they're as "clean" as the wort. Recirculate with a spoon and you can drop the wort to pitching temperature PDQ if your water temp is good (and cooling water temp affects the efficiency of the plate chiller, too). Hit your pitch temp, pull the IC, give the wort a good spin, put the lid on and let it sit for 10 minutes or so and you can leave nearly all the break material in the kettle.

No need for a pump, no need to run cleaning solutions through the chiller, and if you BYO they're pretty darned cheap.

I listened to a guy talking to the owner of my LHBS who bought a second hand plate chiller off Craig's List who had spent days trying to get it cleaned. After trying a myriad of different treatments it was still coughing up colorful chunks of gawd-only-knows-what...

Cheers!

 

[Golddiggie]

I wouldn't purchase one that's been used, unless I knew the person who owned it before (and he got it new). You never know how well a stranger will take care of their brewing hardware.

Without building a monster of an IC, I can chill faster with the plate chiller that's about the size of a regular clay brick. Far smaller in size than an IC. I have a plastic toolbox (Craftsman) that houses my pump and transports my plate chiller, with the RebelSmart item.

Eventually, I MIGHT get a high volume/GPM pump that will allow me to push a lot more pressure behind the PBW solution and rinse water. Until then, the March pump I got does a sound job of things.

Oh, and here's a negative for you on the IC side... If you don't have 100% solid connections on the water lines going to/from the chiller, you can (easily) get hose water into your wort. I've actually seen it where a person had a BYO IC that the fittings were NOT done right, and if you put even a moderate amount of water pressure to it, they would pop off like nothing was holding them on (even though they were using hose clamps). He had the lid on, so the only way we knew something was wrong was when water/wort started coming out of his pot... Then again, he wasn't all that bright, so maybe not a solid example. But, every time I would go to use the IC's I made, I would double check the fittings to make SURE they were on tight. I would also make sure they were hanging over the edge of the kettle, in such a way that IF they leaked, it would drip outside the kettle and not into the wort. IMO/IME, more trouble than it's worth. Especially compared with a solid plate chiller.

You can make a CFC too, IF you want to. IMO, more trouble than it's worth. I made enough chillers to know I didn't want to make any more of them. I was willing to pay a few dollars to get a solid chilling solution. I ran it a few times before I got the pump (to spread out the purchases). Now that I do have a pump, I'm using it for more than just feeding the plate chiller. So it's a solid gear investment.

Personally, I'm not trying to go cheap on the hardware. I have no issue buying something already made if it's a solid solution for a task. By the same token, I don't mind getting my hands dirty to make/modify something to make it do what I want it to (keg mash tun conversion for example). I might make more things once I have access to better/more tools, but that's probably not going to happen for some time.

Besides, brewing is supposed to be FUN, not work... For me, ending the brew day easy is a huge win, and worth it in spades. I take less time to chill my wort, and get it into primary, using the plate chiller than when using the IC. even once I added the ball valve to the kettle.

I have a job prospect that could allow me to move more north (into NH)... I'm hoping to find a place with either a well, or where the ground water is a bit cooler year round. Sure, that will make me use a bit more propane to heat up the mash/sparge waters, but it will make for better/faster chill times. At least for most of the year. I'm also looking forward to the day when I get to tell my current landlord to F off and a few other choice items (which will be as I'm carrying the final box out the door)...

 

[day_trippr]

[...]Oh, and here's a negative for you on the IC side... If you don't have 100% solid connections on the water lines going to/from the chiller, you can (easily) get hose water into your wort.[...]

With all due respect, that's weak. And if that's all you got, it's clear the IC user community is in very good shape indeed

Cheers!

 

[subliminalurge]

Oh, and here's a negative for you on the IC side... If you don't have 100% solid connections on the water lines going to/from the chiller, you can (easily) get hose water into your wort.

While that's certainly true, why wouldn't somebody check those connections?

I've not personally made my own IC yet, but I'm getting ready to. Both of the ICs that I've purchased had the soldered on garden hose connectors. Rock solid and leak free. My upcoming IC build will include them as well.

(Now I just need to find a good price on SS tubing.)

 

[Golddiggie]

Good luck on finding SS tubing at a 'good price'... If it's not annealed really soft, you'll also need a tool to bend it. Cost difference is getting smaller at every step...

The poor connections is just one example, that remains in my mind... I know I've seen the IC's with the host fittings too, which is fine if you're willing to pay for that model. But if you're just going for CHEAP, then you won't use them.

As for why someone wouldn't check those connections... HE thought that running the water slow was better. He thought an hour (or more) chill time was desirable. Never mind, he was hogging the only chill water feed that several of us were in need of. Sure, he's an idiot, but it's a case where he was proud of the IC he made.

This is just another case where if you look at a dozen different home brewers setups, chances are, you'll find a dozen different configurations. You'll find at least all three chill methods, with variations within those too.

Do what you like/want/feel you need, but don't think that plate chillers are in any way inferior, or more dangerous, than IC's...

BTW, you only need to boil water for 1 minute (at 212F) in order to render it safe for drinking. So having your chiller in full contact for longer than that should be enough. I know some people say 10-15 minutes, which you can do, but I don't see much point in going over 5 minutes. Oh, and I CAN dunk (and then drain) my plate chiller in StarSan. I can also bake it in the oven if I wish for long enough to sanitize it. Overkill IMO... Not that easy with an IC, and not really a good idea for a CFC. Of course, I could do the 15 minute recirc IF I wanted, since I use the hop spider.

 

[subliminalurge]

Do what you like/want/feel you need, but don't think that plate chillers are in any way inferior, or more dangerous, than IC's...

Oh, don't get me wrong, I don't think they're inferior at all. In fact I'm looking forward to the day when I add one to my rig.

All I'm saying is that an IC can do an outstanding job and is more cost effective in many situations. Given my current setup the price of a therminator plus a pump would be much better spent on other upgrades at this stage of the game. As such, I'll be an IC guy for a while longer.

The main point I'm trying to make is that the choice of chiller style really depends on where the rest of your brew rig is at the time. Each style has its place.

 

[Rev2010]

Boy, a plate chiller vs. IC argument

Joking aside, I know the extra time saving advantage of plate chillers but day_trippr has some good points on the IC side. I don't even have an XL IC, just a standard one, and I still get the wort below 100 in 15-20 minutes. I get it to 70 in about 25-30 and that was with September temps here in NJ (about 70-75 water temp). Now that the weather is getting colder the water will be colder too so it will be faster. Under 30 minutes to reach pitch temps for me is perfectly fine. Sure it could be done in 10 minutes with a plate chiller, or 8 in your example. However there are the issues mentioned that some just don't want to deal with. An IC sure as hell beats an ice bath, I can't believe I waiting this long myself. I think arguing it is a moot point. Both clearly have their advantages and disadvantages, it's solely matter which aspects are important to the user in question.


Rev.

 

[Golddiggie]

Any chiller is better than using an ice bath...

Just last Friday, I was at (actually, a bit below) my target pitching temp in under 15 minutes with my small plate chiller. I could have stopped sooner, since I actually got to about 62-64F in that time (my target was about 66F).

Way I see it, IC is good for those on a tight budget and just NEED a better way to chill. Once you have a few other elements, you decide it's time to upgrade. Depending on the route you take will determine either which chiller you get, or what you get first. You could get the pump first, especially if you want to recirculate your wort while mashing (for direct fire mash tuns). Or setup a HERMS/RIMS configuration.

I wish I had been able to see a plate chiller in action before going with the IC's... It would have saved me enough time, energy, and money.

Way I see it, I have a chiller that's ready for when I get/make my brew stand... Not sure which way I'll go there, but I'm planning on at least one pump in the mix. Helps to already HAVE the pump. :rockin:

 

[subliminalurge]

I see what you're saying, golddiggie. And it makes sense. Unfortunately, budget is a concern for a lot of people.

Given my current rig, to make effective use of a plate chiller I would have to go buy the chiller itself ($200), a pump (~$150), a new brew kettle with a ball valve ($100? $200?), plus assorted tubing, fittings, etc... (probably $50 or so) Easily $500 once it's all said and done.

Or I could just buy a rock solid 50' stainless IC for $100 and have $400 left over for other upgrades that are much more desperately needed at the moment. Winter's coming so my tap water is going to be nice and icy cold for many months.

If I win the lottery this weekend, I'll probably rethink my stance. But for now, moving to a therminator just doesn't make sense. It probably will someday, but that day isn't here yet.

I agree that plate chillers have some big advantages. But only if the rest of your rig is at the level where it makes sense.

 

[Lost]

I like a simple setup. Fewer parts and easier to clean parts. An IC can cool very quickly if you are recirculating. Clean up is super simple and you just put it in the boil to sanitize. And I store it inside my brew kettle.

Whatever time you think you are saving with the plate chiller you are probably losing sanitizing and backflushing it. And after all that you're still never really sure what all is trapped inside it. I think a plate chiller is fine but it definitely has drawbacks, to argue otherwise requires an active imagination.

And as far as chill time is concerned, the no chill crowd has some pretty convincing evidence that rapid chilling is not very beneficial if at all.

 

[HollisBT]

Wow, this thread certainly turned into a lively and unnecessary debate... Yes both forms of chillers have their pros and cons, and people may choose one or the other based on several different criteria.

To answer a question from several posts ago, I decided to ditch the plate chiller idea in lieu of the IC due to both cost and simplicity. I will still probably step up to a plate chiller eventually, but in the mean time I have no need or funds to spend on pumps, filtering the trub, and the other pleasantries that accompany a plate chiller. Trying to cut costs where I can, and follow the KISS methodology.